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Feb 12th, 2024
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 Lease Question
#2429509
07/15/11 03:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101
jhptxrancher
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101 |
This is more directed at all the landowners out there. I want to pose a scenario that I am facing to you guys/gals:
My family's ranch is currenly managed by my mother and aunt. Both of them are elderly and have elected to have me take over as ranch manager this coming year since 1) I am the closest physically to the property and 2) I am the only one that has shown interest in managing & keeping the ranch in the family. I learned how to hunt on this place and currently enjoy the hunting with our lease hunters. The lease hunters have been with us for about 15 years and have enjoyed significantly below market rates since we 1) don't allow alcohol or tobacco 2)no guests other than immediate family (parents/spouses and children only no extended family)and 3) they furnish all equipment. Note: I provide my own equipment and frequently help with purchasing/filling feeders. The lease hunters also have helped us in keeping roads trimmed and occaisional work that we have needed on the ranch. The big question that I am posing to everyone is this: Have any of you had to inform your hunters that you have to raise rates up to the market for the area in order to keep above water with expenses of the property?
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: jhptxrancher]
#2429532
07/15/11 03:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101
jhptxrancher
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101 |
Additional info: The ranch is located near Devine, TX.(about 1hr or less from most parts of San Antonio) I have figured that the going rate for the area is between $1500 or more per gun. I will not disclose the current rate but it is significantly less than that per hunter. All my guys have high respect for our land. We allow them a full year lease for deer, hogs, and turkey. Our land is leased separately for dove & quail by another group and both sets of hunters get along well.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: jhptxrancher]
#2429533
07/15/11 03:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101
jhptxrancher
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101 |
The land is also farmed and ranched and all get along with these men as well.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: jhptxrancher]
#2429539
07/15/11 03:20 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322
BMD
Silver Spoon
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Silver Spoon
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322 |
How big a ranch and how many hunters?
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: jhptxrancher]
#2429565
07/15/11 03:26 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101
jhptxrancher
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101 |
I am worried that if I raise the lease fees to market level that 1. the guys cannot afford it due to the current economy and 2 that there will be some backlash from them.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: BMD]
#2429571
07/15/11 03:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101
jhptxrancher
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101 |
1800 acres with 6 hunters. My Dad and I hunt as well.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: jhptxrancher]
#2429633
07/15/11 03:54 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 831
bphillips
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 831 |
assuming they have already paid for this year I wouldn't bring it up till after this season just to avoid any possible backlash.. then if they don't like it they just don't renew it
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: bphillips]
#2429745
07/15/11 05:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 47
Jaga
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 47 |
Try meeting them half way -
Do you really have to jump all the way to what you call market rate in a single year - these hunters have a lot vested in that property and there is a good chance while you could probably easily lease for "market rate" you might go through 2 or more groups before finding more that will take care of your land.
Let them know what you think market rate is.
Let them know your appreciation of them.
Let them know why you have to increase the rate.
Figure out what they are worth to you and discount the rate appropriately from what you call market.
They will understand you have to pay the bills - but dont equate people you are vested with to general market. If they don't think that relationship is worth something to you - you will find it means less and less to them.
Last edited by Jaga; 07/15/11 05:11 AM.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: Jaga]
#2429889
07/15/11 10:58 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,166
deerslayer64d
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,166 |
Try meeting them half way -
Do you really have to jump all the way to what you call market rate in a single year - these hunters have a lot vested in that property and there is a good chance while you could probably easily lease for "market rate" you might go through 2 or more groups before finding more that will take care of your land.
Let them know what you think market rate is.
Let them know your appreciation of them.
Let them know why you have to increase the rate.
Figure out what they are worth to you and discount the rate appropriately from what you call market.
They will understand you have to pay the bills - but dont equate people you are vested with to general market. If they don't think that relationship is worth something to you - you will find it means less and less to them. X 2
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: deerslayer64d]
#2429972
07/15/11 12:25 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,152
DoubleB20
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,152 |
15 years is a long time relationship, that's worth a lot more than just money. If you have to rasie the price due to ranch expenses, then get out your books and explain it. There could be ways to meet your costs, without raising their lease price. I'm sure you could find someone else to take over the lease, but you probably won't have the same relationship and you'll probably damage the relationship with the long term guys.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: DoubleB20]
#2430004
07/15/11 12:53 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,498
TX_LT230FH
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,498 |
Agree with the above. If you have good hunters on there and they have been there for 15 years, I'd proceed carefully. You can always go to them and tell them that taxes, etc have gone up and your family is searching for ways to offset the additional expenses. Ask them if they want to add another hunter or two or increase their rates slightly. I'd pay more instead of adding hnters if it was me on the lease. 6 people on 1800 acres is not much, but you also need to factor in the cost/benefit of you and your father hunting with the lessees.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: TX_LT230FH]
#2430072
07/15/11 01:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100
dgilbert
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100 |
Are you losing money on up keep? If so talk with them and make it right. If not, why ruin it, not hardly any of these type leases around any more, man I miss those days. Especially if I was on the lease, why would I want to pay more if I didn't have to, just because others have to pay going rate, not hardly.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: dgilbert]
#2430214
07/15/11 02:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,899
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,899 |
Our situation was about the same on the place that I hunt. I have been there 17 years and a couple of the guys have been there around 23. We always take care of the place and have a great relationship with the owner and ranch manager. We still pay under the going rate, but it is alot higher than what we were paying.
We all sat down and worked out a compromise that we could all live with it. Basically, it consisted of small increases over 3 years, instead of hitting everyone with one big up-charge. Over those 3 years we increased the number of hunters and only made small adjustments to the price. It sure made it alot easier for all of us to adjust and the ranch manager was able to get what he wanted without losing a good group of hunters.
The way that we saw it, the ranch manager was still getting what he wanted, but he had to wait a couple of years to get it. In return for those couple of years, our relationship remained in tact, he still had good, honest, respectful hunters, and he didn't have to spend the extra time and energy trying to find another group.
The transition was a little rough at times, but good communication, a clear understanding of the expectations from both sides, and willingness to comprise sure makes it easier.
Good Luck
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: txshntr]
#2430390
07/15/11 03:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,775
TXW
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,775 |
Our situation was about the same on the place that I hunt. I have been there 17 years and a couple of the guys have been there around 23. We always take care of the place and have a great relationship with the owner and ranch manager. We still pay under the going rate, but it is alot higher than what we were paying.
We all sat down and worked out a compromise that we could all live with it. Basically, it consisted of small increases over 3 years, instead of hitting everyone with one big up-charge. Over those 3 years we increased the number of hunters and only made small adjustments to the price. It sure made it alot easier for all of us to adjust and the ranch manager was able to get what he wanted without losing a good group of hunters.
The way that we saw it, the ranch manager was still getting what he wanted, but he had to wait a couple of years to get it. In return for those couple of years, our relationship remained in tact, he still had good, honest, respectful hunters, and he didn't have to spend the extra time and energy trying to find another group.
The transition was a little rough at times, but good communication, a clear understanding of the expectations from both sides, and willingness to comprise sure makes it easier.
Good Luck X2...there is tremendous value in your current group. I can't think of the amount of brain damage you will have to go through to find a new group that will treat the property the way your current group does. They know they are getting a good rate, and in turn, are pitching in to help in other places that a new group likely wouldn't do if they were paying market rates. With market rates comes serious expectations that the landowner will perform on the other side of the agreement.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: TXW]
#2431580
07/16/11 01:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,650
Southtexas36
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,650 |
I am a lessee and I value a written contract. I know exactly what I'm responsible for and how much I'm going to pay for the life of the 5 yr contract. I expect my lease to go up at the next contract period but at least I know what needs to be paid for 5 yrs. I also have an excellent relationship with my landowner, he comes fishing over here in LA every year, been knowing him for 30 yrs. After all it is a business and I suggest a contract, it'll protect you as well as your hunters.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: Southtexas36]
#2431634
07/16/11 01:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,124
LandPirate
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,124 |
I'd just be honest and tell them that expenses have gone up and unfortunately their rate will have to be adjusted up as well. If they're reasonable people (They sound like they are) then they'll understand.
Every lease I've ever been on goes up some every few years. I wouldn't even bring up "Market Rates" to them. That might insinuate that you are prepared to shop for new hunters if they don't meet your price.
Discuss it with them sooner than later. Nobody likes surprises like that. Maybe set a percentage rate of increase over the next few years. You could also offer them a long term contract 5+ years with any increases factored into the contract. That way they know what they're getting.
Last edited by LandPirate; 07/16/11 01:37 AM.
Mike
Buda, Tx
Hunt near Freer
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: LandPirate]
#2431771
07/16/11 02:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,775
TXW
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,775 |
I definitely like the idea of a long term contract.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: TXW]
#2431875
07/16/11 03:17 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 527
BAYSPORT
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 527 |
My last lease, the landowners son took over managing the lease after over 15 years on the lease with set increases every 3 years
he called informed the group that the new lease was going to be a market prices and and that a 100% was on the way.We maintained roads,. feeders built 2 cabins at our cost and put in a well for a section that had no water.
Left the following year and he has not had the same group for over one year max ( thrue the grapevine he has had problems with every grroup including illegal harvest,excessive guests and unmaintained property )
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: txshntr]
#2435521
07/17/11 11:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101
jhptxrancher
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101 |
Great advice from everyone. We run on a 3 year lease and last go round was 2009 which had a modest increase in it. We lost 2 hunters back in 2007 due to issues with the way the rancher was treating the land. Needless to say that rancher is not longer on our land.
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Re: Lease Question
[Re: jhptxrancher]
#2435582
07/17/11 11:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101
jhptxrancher
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 101 |
The lease is up for renewal after this hunting season. I am trying to come up with solutions and options so that I don't put this group in a situation similar to Baysport. That is the last thing that I want to do. My only other issue is justifying the lease to my aunt's side of the family who are all NON Huntersand live out of state. My Aunt personaly likes the meat but non of her daughters will touch it with a 10 foot pole. However, I still have to justify the rates to them. (2 of my cousins have already expressed their desire to sell the ranch but are taking a wait and see approach at the moment due to real estate being down right now).
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