|
Forums46
Topics538,543
Posts9,738,401
Members87,095
| |
Most Online25,604
Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
 Domestication lamentation
#238235
10/24/07 03:49 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,400
PKnTX
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,400 |
From my understanding there are 3 things required to
bring about the domestication of a species:
*Providing supplemental or substantial food source
in order to promote desired physical traits and to
manipulate inherent behavior.
*Confinement to restrict natural movement, protect from
predation and to secure ownership.
*Use of selective breeding and/or husbandry to promote
predetermined traits for commercial or social use.
Does any of this seem familiar?
Cattle, horses, sheep, swine, goats and very
soon, whitetail deer. Domesticated animals.
It took hundreds of years to accomplish the domestication
of the barnyard animals we use today.
Advanced animal husbandry techniques alone
could reduce this to just a few generations.
Add the use of cloning (being used on WT deer for a while now)
and a new improved made to order Trophy Whitetail
mount for your wall (and everyone else) will be just
a short drive, improvised campfire scene
outside the lodge and a right on time at the
feed trough "hunt" away.
I can do without a dead animal of any kind
hanging in my home so the high cost of killing
a Trophy Buck is not a major concern to me.
It's the spill over effect current attitudes
and actions have on access to hunting that bother
me somewhat.
No need to "inform" me that hunting is
a business or remark about my lack
of understanding the facts. I see the wheels
are in motion and there's too much money
at stake to tap the brakes now. I know
these things so no need to educate me.
But I don't have to like it.
And I don't.
Not in an angry way.
More of a sad, nostalgic way.
PK
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: PKnTX]
#238236
10/24/07 03:55 PM
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,632
cajundave
Veteran Tracker
|
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,632 |
"Guns aren't toys!They're for family protection,hunting dangerous or delicious animals,and keeping the King of England out of your face!" H.Simpson 
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: PKnTX]
#238237
10/24/07 03:57 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721
Txduckman
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721 |
That's why I have duck hunting, turkey hunting, dove hunting, predator hunting, etc in my front pocket knowing I can always do that for a lot less than the deer. I'll leave the trophy deer hunting to the professionals but still hunt deer for the solitude, fun, and meat.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Txduckman]
#238238
10/24/07 04:03 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,400
PKnTX
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,400 |
Quote:
That's why I have duck hunting, turkey hunting, dove hunting, predator hunting, etc in my front pocket knowing I can always do that for a lot less than the deer. I'll leave the trophy deer hunting to the professionals but still hunt deer for the solitude, fun, and meat.
Yeah, these other types of hunting should be my new focus.
I've deer hunted just for the amount of meat you get
when successful. Guess more time in the field going
after other game may be the ticket. Darn, more time
in the field, what a sacrifice 
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: PKnTX]
#238239
10/24/07 04:04 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,804
dogcatcher
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,804 |
Whitetail deer are already raised for their meat, so are elk and other formerly wild animal. There is an elk ranch that raises them near Lubbock and a deer ranch near Eden, these are not hunting ranches these are for meat production.
Will there be more? Probably, as these are only 2 that I know of, but I have heard of others.
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back.
_____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________![[Linked Image]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/usergals/2018/09/full-3152-162968-charge_air_assault.jpg)
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: dogcatcher]
#238240
10/24/07 04:13 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49
Fistula
Light Foot
|
|
Light Foot
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49 |
What about mammals that are landlocked on an island?
You would both be eating the same food.
Would that make you Domestication Lamentation dude?
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Fistula]
#238241
10/24/07 04:20 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,341
Rwuensch
Extreme Tracker
|
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,341 |
Quote:
What about mammals that are landlocked on an island?
You would both be eating the same food.
Would that make you Domestication Lamentation dude?
We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "smart"?
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Rwuensch]
#238242
10/24/07 04:58 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49
Fistula
Light Foot
|
|
Light Foot
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49 |
I doubt there would be any popcorn on the island.
Cmon.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Fistula]
#238243
10/24/07 05:00 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,341
Rwuensch
Extreme Tracker
|
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,341 |
Quote:
I doubt there would be any popcorn on the island.
Cmon.
You never know, might be able to pop some deer corn.
LOL
We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "smart"?
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Fistula]
#238244
10/24/07 05:02 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
Pro Tracker
|
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220 |
Yep and Yep,
Right there with ya PK. It is SAD !
I do my darndest to not $upport deer hunting as a busine$$, when it used to be a tradition. There are just too many folks that will.
I still deer hunt on our place (it is a farm first) but cuz there are deer there. It has been a tradition through generations. We are selective in our harvest i.e doe, mature bucks. Yada yada. We like to see 'em grow up and have big horns, Plus my granddad's sausage recipe is awsome, no matter how big the horns were. But no feeders, protein or mineral blocks, scrape drips and all that other BS. Deer herd and population has done fine without it for generations. Livestock would just eat it up anyways.
It is a GREAT place to raise my kids in farming/hunting/working and playing outdoors. (I am truly blessed)
But the curse of the deer industy is trying to tresspass on my place through the TPWD..(13"AR,etc.)....Who knows what they'll do next. I can't even "tap the brakes" at my property line. It is VERY SAD in a nostalgic way and I AM ANGRY about it.
I do not spend my money on the industry that deer hunting has become. I wish I could (shoot hogs) and just let my kids hunt, without me getting a TX license. So I don't have to support the TPWDs deeper and deeper involvement in the trophy deer industy either.
I spend my hunting money out of state to go hunting with family and friends. DIY on public land, and my 3-boys will be going with me as SOON as they can. That will be 4x the $$$ TPWD and TTHA won't be getting from this wallet. May not be much but it is the least I can do.
Carry on,
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?  TPWD
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: PKnTX]
#238245
10/24/07 05:04 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484
Big Orn
great white gorilla
|
|
great white gorilla
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484 |
I know what you mean, PK. I've been going through that same mood for a few years now and, yes, it's getting worse. Thing is with me, I grew up in an "open hunting" environment, where folks would always let you hunt for the asking and sometimes call and ask when you were gonna get around to "killin' off some o'these dang deer" at their farm. Back then "trophy bucks" were never mentioned. Neither was "hunting leases" - but we were at least 50 miles from any city and almost all the landowners were local. Another thing is that you could jump off the school bus, grab your rifle and hunt until dark, which was only a couple of hours or so afterwards. Each deer, doe or buck, got you plenty of praise from family and friends. Heck, some farmers would even buy you ammo if you hunted their patches. 
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: PHishTX]
#238246
10/24/07 05:05 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 22,268
7mag
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 22,268 |
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh dang it Phillip!!!!  Why did you have to throw in the Whitetail deer???? 
![[Linked Image]](https://s20.postimg.cc/5cn5isf7d/20180718_153033_1531957938497.jpg) "Laugh with many, but don't trust any"
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: 7mag]
#238247
10/24/07 05:18 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 238
holdem
Woodsman
|
|
Woodsman
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 238 |
Hunt hogs !!!! KAP - kill all pigs.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: 7mag]
#238248
10/24/07 05:31 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49
Fistula
Light Foot
|
|
Light Foot
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49 |
I seriously believe the demise of all outdoor recreational activities on private and public land:
Hunting
Boating
Fishing
Camping
Off road mototcycling/ 4 wheelin
And others
Will cease to exist in X amount of years because the ones currently enjoying these activities can and will not agree on any compromise in regards on what they "Believe" is the best way it should be done.
The greenies keep getting stronger and stronger while we keep doing our own thing. Bitching about the other participants of said sport doing it their "incorrect" way.
There are what, 500,000 Californians staying in shelters because the greenies wouldn't let the HOMEOWNERS/Developers cut fire breaks on THEIR property or in their communities.
Just wait till they decide they want to put deer on their to-do list.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: PKnTX]
#238249
10/24/07 06:02 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474 |
While we may end up with white tails and elk that are somewhat habituated to humans and human manipulation, white tails/elk/American Buffalo/canada geese, will never become fully domesticated, at least not in any one on this forums lifetime.
There is a factor involved in the individual physiology that seperates the animals that can be/are domesticated, and those that will for the most part always remain wild.
How many folks concsider house cats or pigs as truly domesticated animals, say in comparison to dogs or cattle?????
We all know that the situation concerning deer hunting sucks, how many of us are willing to see land owners lose their rights to do as they wish with the land they own????
Anybody want to answer that???
How many of you are old enough to remember the days when deer were not worth anything to landowners, in fact, were considered pests???????
PK, you can not dislike it any worse than I do, but I am a realist, and the folks to blame are the ones that participate on this and any other hunting forum.
If "Hunters" had not started placing a premium on deer antlers, a lot of this would not have happened.
Also, you have to take the continual aspect of human evolution into account.
Humans, especially AMERICAN MALES, Between the ages of 18 and 45, have to make EVERYTHING THEY DO, into a contest.
Those of us that don't buy into the bigger/better/faster/etc. etc. mentality are looked upon as lesser individuals.
No longer has the fact that a person goes out and kills a deer come to mean anything, now it only counts if the B&C or P&Y score is above a certain point.
This is another of those threads that will go nowhere fast.
We can't put things back to the way they were in the 50's and 60's and 70's, and those that were not there during those times, have no working concept of what it was like, no matter how hard we try to explain it.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Fistula]
#238250
10/24/07 06:14 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484
Big Orn
great white gorilla
|
|
great white gorilla
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484 |
Quote:
I seriously believe the demise of all outdoor recreational activities on private and public land:
Hunting
Boating
Fishing
Camping
Off road mototcycling/ 4 wheelin
And others
Will cease to exist in X amount of years because the ones currently enjoying these activities can and will not agree on any compromise in regards on what they "Believe" is the best way it should be done.
The greenies keep getting stronger and stronger while we keep doing our own thing. Bitching about the other participants of said sport doing it their "incorrect" way.
There are what, 500,000 Californians staying in shelters because the greenies wouldn't let the HOMEOWNERS/Developers cut fire breaks on THEIR property or in their communities.
Just wait till they decide they want to put deer on their to-do list.
It's one thing to say hunting will suffer - which it already has in my opinion - and yet another to say that it will go away because hunters disagree. Hunting, in general, has changed, no doubt, but not because hunters disagree amongst ourselves, but because we don't stand up and disagree enough with non-hunters. Let's call a spade a spade and end the friendly fire. One report from the meetings at TPWD stated that they couldn't get enough input from a community (which happens in alot of communities) because not enough folks (hunters) showed up. We, as much as biologists and/or zoologists, need to make our concerns known at those meetings.
If our absence from meetings where we're asked to attend and give our input is shoddy, just think about all those meetings that take place where we're not invited - where we should be as well - that directly affect us?
I bet those folks will want to make their opinions known in California now. Whether they get off their arses and do it, though, is another thing altogether.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#238251
10/24/07 06:31 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,400
PKnTX
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,400 |
Quote:
If "Hunters" had not started placing a premium on deer antlers, a lot of this would not have happened.
Also, you have to take the continual aspect of human evolution into account.
Humans, especially AMERICAN MALES, Between the ages of 18 and 45, have to make EVERYTHING THEY DO, into a contest.
Those of us that don't buy into the bigger/better/faster/etc. etc. mentality are looked upon as lesser individuals.
I completely agree with this.
I never had any illusions about this
thread going anywhere, making a difference
or even being taken seriously. Don't have
enough of an investment in the situation to
even warrant alot of heartburn. Just what
I've been thinking about some lately.
Landowners have got to make money when/where
they can and I have NO problem with that.
On the other subject, I am NOT inclined to
get along with or agree with anyone or condone
what they do just because they are a hunter or
outdoorsperson. If that makes me a divider then
so be it. PETA or any other anti group is just
another bunch of extremists that when brought
out into the open most rational people would
distance themselves from. Kinda like some of
us hunters. 
PK
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Big Orn]
#238252
10/24/07 06:40 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474 |
Quote:
I bet those folks will want to make their opinions known in California now. Whether they get off their arses and do it, though, is another thing altogether.
This is the very attitude that will end up killing hunting in Texas and all across the U.S..
I have been preaching this since I joined this forum.
TOO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT THINGS ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE.
Too many folks stand around saying, "It'll never change, It'll never change, Well I'll be damned, it changed".
The make up of the population of Texas has changed radically over the past 10 years, and people are not paying attention.
It is not 2008 yet, and Texas' population is headed for the 30 million mark, a number that we were not predicted to reach until 2015 or later. We are probably going to reach it by 2010.
Folks, if ALL of us that hunt, together with our whole family that is voting age, turned out for a general election vote on the future of hunting in Texas, We Would Lose, PERIOD.
I think a lot of folks realize that and are just setting back, planning on enjoying the sport, until the Fat Lady Sings.
I think many folks out there, that are not members of this forum, have seen the hand writing on the wall and are just going to make the best of a bad situation till the end comes.
Can someone help me on this one?
1st. Find out how many registered voters there are in Texas.
2nd. Find out how many resident hunting license were sold in 2006.
3rd. See what the % difference there is between license buying hunters and registered voter numbers.
As for the folks in California losing their homes, it is all said in the piece I saw last night. Suzanne Summers, lost her home last year in the fires. She turned right around and moved back into the same area and built a new house.
Look at how many folks here in Texas keep building homes in known - histrorical flood plains.
Humans are the problem, always have been, always will be.
Until some catastrophe overtakes us that eliminates over 50% of the earths population, and our attention is turned from decadence to "Am I Gonna Live Till Tomorrow", it is only going to get worse.
Just My Chicken Little Opinion!!!
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Big Orn]
#238253
10/24/07 06:41 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49
Fistula
Light Foot
|
|
Light Foot
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49 |
Members join the Sierra Club/PETA and back whatever they say because it's good for the environment/earth/wildlife.
Whether it's trees, snails, butterflies or elk, they have the power as a whole to stick together for the fight. And they do it very well unfortunately.
Take 3 hunters. One guy trapping coons, one running hogs with dogs, one high fence exotic ranch owner selling trophy whitetail hunts.
It's safe to say these 3 will never really care about what the other does. But in the big picture, each will be effected by laws placed on hunters in general.
We need to be more acceptable of how others legally run their hunts, ranches. You may never have to take part in it, but your future generations may have to.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#238254
10/24/07 06:44 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49
Fistula
Light Foot
|
|
Light Foot
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49 |
Quote:
Quote:
I bet those folks will want to make their opinions known in California now. Whether they get off their arses and do it, though, is another thing altogether.
This is the very attitude that will end up killing hunting in Texas and all across the U.S..
I have been preaching this since I joined this forum.
TOO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT THINGS ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE.
Too many folks stand around saying, "It'll never change, It'll never change, Well I'll be damned, it changed".
The make up of the population of Texas has changed radically over the past 10 years, and people are not paying attention.
It is not 2008 yet, and Texas' population is headed for the 30 million mark, a number that we were not predicted to reach until 2015 or later. We are probably going to reach it by 2010.
Folks, if ALL of us that hunt, together with our whole family that is voting age, turned out for a general election vote on the future of hunting in Texas, We Would Lose, PERIOD.
I think a lot of folks realize that and are just setting back, planning on enjoying the sport, until the Fat Lady Sings.
I think many folks out there, that are not members of this forum, have seen the hand writing on the wall and are just going to make the best of a bad situation till the end comes.
Can someone help me on this one?
1st. Find out how many registered voters there are in Texas.
2nd. Find out how many resident hunting license were sold in 2006.
3rd. See what the % difference there is between license buying hunters and registered voter numbers.
As for the folks in California losing their homes, it is all said in the piece I saw last night. Suzanne Summers, lost her home last year in the fires. She turned right around and moved back into the same area and built a new house.
Look at how many folks here in Texas keep building homes in known - histrorical flood plains.
Humans are the problem, always have been, always will be.
Until some catastrophe overtakes us that eliminates over 50% of the earths population, and our attention is turned from decadence to "Am I Gonna Live Till Tomorrow", it is only going to get worse.
Just My Chicken Little Opinion!!!
Well said.
You won't know what you got till its gone.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Fistula]
#238255
10/24/07 06:52 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,087
HupDog Daddy
Pro Tracker
|
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,087 |
I agreee with the sentiment. It is terrible what has happened to and with deer hunting in Texas. I think a large part of what is /has taken place is that the farmers aren't making as much money farming any more. The city dwellers because of their wish to get out and away from the city and hunt, throw money at the farmer to allow them to shoot his pesky deer. Farmer John sees away to make an easy cash crop.
Not much involvement on his part, just collect the cash. Not that I blame either one. Like you say just sad.
" Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch"
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: HupDog Daddy]
#238256
10/24/07 07:15 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721
Txduckman
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721 |
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_a0900_0622_06_06.pdfI don't think license sales for 2006 are available yet but 2005 maybe. Anyway, in the latest economic pub by TPWD they show in 2001 1.2 million hunters 16 and older spent $1.5 billion and 2.4 million anglers spent over $1.9 billion. Quote "In many small communities, these angler and hunter expenditures are central to economic health and growth." To the state, they look at it from an economic standpoint. I am not sure what voters have a say in. Not much in the past it seems and not much in the future. It is committee run by rich people.Like I said, most rural communities seem democratic so I can't see how they would kill the rural town life allogether by changing current hunting and fishing laws to make it illegal or something. Just my opinion.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Txduckman]
#238257
10/24/07 07:39 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49
Fistula
Light Foot
|
|
Light Foot
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49 |
Quote:
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_a0900_0622_06_06.pdf
Like I said, most rural communities seem democratic so I can't see how they would kill the rural town life allogether by changing current hunting and fishing laws to make it illegal or something.
Just my opinion.
I agree with you on the small town mentality.
But that way of life dies when state and the feds pass laws.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: PKnTX]
#238258
10/24/07 08:58 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,466
ndhunter
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,466 |
Well PK all I can say is whatever you set your sights on (no pun intended) you better hope it can get by on corn cause that is all that is going to get planted if the market sustains current price levels.
|
|
|
|
Re: Domestication lamentation
[Re: Fistula]
#238259
10/24/07 09:08 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474 |
Quote:
But that way of life dies when state and the feds pass laws.
This is one of the points I am getting at, along with the fact, that the public can thru the petition process, get a referendum election set.
I think too many folks are not paying any attention to what is happening around the country, and they do not realize that other states used to have a similar set up to what Texas has, when it comes to the TP&W Board.
Many states now have eliminated those boards and in some cases do not even have a representative land owner or sportsman on the committees they do have.
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
|
