Cool. That means I can still use my AR50 to hunt bugs bunny.

This thread appears to have come down to a discussion of the pros and cons between a 30/06 and a 30/30 so I would like to weigh in with JMHO after spending 13 years selling hunting rifles as a distributor and a manufacturer's regional rep...and hunting White Tails from the late 60's to currently.

The 30/06 aka 30 caliber Springfield, 1906 version was designed as a military weapon to shoot initally 220 grain RN bullets like the black powder 30-40 Krag used.
The trajectory was about the same as the 30 grains of Black Powder and 30 caliber lever action carbine commonly called a "30/30". Killing power on man sized targets with the 30 caliber springfield's 220 gr RN bullets at 2200 fps was exceptional at ranges under 300 yards but the Spanish army in the Spanish American War using a 7x57 175 grain bullet had much superior range and flatter trajectory than the then standard 30-40 Krag or the 30/30 cavalry carbines and many American troops never got close enough to engage the enemy before being killed by the superior 7x57 smokless powder cartridge. So the "30'06" military round was changed to the now commonly accepted "standard for caliber"150 grain bullet.

The 30/06 is the most commonly used rifle caliber in the world and ammo can be found from Austrailia to Africa and in almost any gas station in deer country anywhere in the US. 30/30's ammo is also that common in the
eastern half of the US and was one time the #1 ammo seller in the US but is has now dropped to the bottom of the top 5 or lower depending on where you are. The last time I saw any sales figures the top 5 sellers were 30/06, 270, 7RMg, 243, and 300 WMg. This was before the short mag craze kicked off, at thattime 30/30 ammo was the 6th or 7th best seller nationally.

Just some other observations after 40 years of owning and shooting 30 or 40 various .223, 22-250, 243. 6mm Rem, 25/06 , 257 Roberts, 270 Win, 7x57, 7 Rem Mg, 30/30, 30/06, 300 WinMg, 300 Weatherby, 8x57, 338 WinMg, 9.3x62, 375 H&H hunting rifles. Some calibers I have shot successfully for many many years and others I have discarded in favor of another caliber for one reason or another including redundancy. I currently own the smallest number of rifles since I started hunting deer in the late 60's, and have only 4 guns in a 270, 300WinMg, 338 WinMg and a 9.3x62. The
following is why I have downsized to such a small battery of guns: a 270 will shoot bullets from 100 grains at 3500 fps to 150's at 2800 fps, the 300WM will shoot 110 grains from 3800 fps to 220's at 2600 fps, the 338 WM will shoot 180 grains at 3400 fps to 300's at 2400, the 9.3x62 will shoot 250 grains from 2600 fps to 320's at 2200 fps. My redundancy is the 300 and 338 overlap but I use one gun for one application and the other for another in almost the same bullet weight,180's and 200's in the 300WM and 200, 210, & 225's in the 338WM. Am I undergunned for Texas Whitetails with "Just a 270? NO!! since it will shoot within 5% of the energy, range and killing power with 130 & 140 grainer's as a 7 Rem Mg in 150's...and I use a bigger bullet from another gun for longer ranges or bigger game at shorter ranges...ie the 9.3x62 at 150 yards in a 286 grainer at over 4000 ft lbs of energy. I shot a 243 and 257 Roberts in 100 & 120's for over 25 years and feel the 270 is a better all around choice in Texas for WhiteTails. I use my short barrled 300Wmg for a brush gun in place of a 30/30 and the others for other needs. I also limit my shots to 300-350 yards on small targets like White Tails depsite being confidant and having made 450 yards game shots on deer sized animals with one shot kills.

They all have some recoil even if I have been able to shoot some of them off my chin or forehead on a dare to prove the
point that it was doable...some more than others! LOL!

As a general rule it takes about 1000 ft pounds of energy to reliably kill a deer;

Bullet performance on game in any round/flat nosed thin jacketed .307 diameter - 30/30's actual diameter - is radically poorer BY DESIGN so that the bullet will open at the much slower ADVERTISED???? 2300-2400 MUZZLE VELOCITY 30/30 speeds than any comparble weight .308 diameter - the bullet size used in all other 30 caliber rifles from 300 Savage to 300 Weatherby Mag.

An old 70's era Winchester ammo trajectory calculator shows that a 30/30 150 gr Power Point with a 100 yard zero will drop 2.6"s @ 150, 7.7"s @ 200 and 27.9"s @ 300 yards. The 30/06 chart in a 150 grain Power Point with a 150 yads zero shows the bullet's path to be 1" high at 100, a 2.4" drop at 200, and a 12.7" drop at 300. No energy tables are shown for either cartridge. My latest Speer and Nosler reloading guides show the 150 grain 30/30 at a max velocity of 2200 fps in a 150 grain bullet and about 2000 fps for a 170 grain bullet with 1044 ft lbs of energy at 150 yards in the 150 gr'er and 1009 ft lbs at 150 yards for the 170 gr'er. In the 30/06 150 gr SPBT (Spitzer Boat Tail) bullet the Speer manual shows 1874 ft lbs of energy at 200, 1572 ft lbs at 300, 1309 ft lbs at 400 and 1084 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards ...or about the same as the 30/30 has at 150 yards. OBTW the max velocity figures in any of the reloading manuals will be very conservative. The 30'06 is obviously a far more efficient cartridge.

Energy is what kills a deer, speed is a factor of energy but better relates to trajectory. Slow long heavy bullets kill better than super fast light bullets becasue the heavy bullet penetrates better.

Recoil tolerance is a function of more than just a few varibles - the amount of powder content is only one factor of over a dozen issues ranging from shooter training to the stock shape and weight of the rifle as well as the obvious caliber selection issue. I prefer a 300 WinMg over an 30/06 but am not comfortable with a 300 Weatherby for the WinMg 's 10-12% better performance in the same bullet over the '06
but cannot tolerate the 300 Wby to shoot in the same number of practice rounds as I can the WinMg. As CHC or someone said "on game you don't feel the recoil" that is a true statement, but the practice bench wears me out bigtime quick with theWeatherby.

In "mid range" calibers from .257 diameter - 250 Savage/257 Rbts/25-06/257 Weatherby thru the .323 diameter 8x57 will all successfully kill a deer or an elk with 3 varibles covered - shot placement, bullet contruction and bullet speed. Some much better than others but there is a lot of room here for personal preference. I have made mine based on my experiences. I would be hard pressed not to buy a 270 if I never intended to hunt anything larger than Mule Deer or possibly Elk and Carabou. As stated if I am going to shoot a 30 caliber I prefer a Magnum....but then thats what floats my boat and may not float anyone else's. Todays premium bullets are significantly better than they were just a few years ago... BUT ONLY if you have a cartridge that is capable of using the advantage...IMHO the 30/30 does not have that capability. Better shot placement usually means closer shots taken that allow compensation for weaker bullet speeds and poor bullet construction.

In Texas I'm told that over 90% of all Whitetails are killed at an average distance of 85-90 yards, and is why the 30/30 is still usefull for shooters who are recoil intolerant or who hunt in areas where short quick shots are the norm.

JMHO, the 30/30 is not something I want to depend on as I believe there are many other and significantly better choices available.
Ron

Pretty much a thread ender when my friend Wylie Coyote replies....a true wealth of hunting and shooting info........! Good info...and to anybody having a question.....feel comfortable asking him...I have and that was all the research I ever needed on a few things.


Now, 30/06 vs 270.....coke pepsi...chevy ford....the owner of one will tell you the other is not worth a darn.

I have shot and killed deer and hogs with 22-250, 243, 308, 30/06, 270, 30.30, 6mm. 7mag and 300 mag.....after I shot say a half dozen hogs, I have not had a problem with any of them taking one step, running etc........as I shoot them right in the head. Get something you like and shoot it, feel comfortable in it and you will be pleased....Be afraid of recoil...and you will not like it, be scared to miss and you will not like it...PRACTICE AND CONFIDENCE.......

If I were going to have one rifle and one only for all my hunting, I would go with a 270, that is just me, shot a few of them and liked them.

Now, when it comes to deer hunting in S. Texas, the ranch I hunt on, it is frowned upon by the landowner to hunt with anything less then a 30/06.....he wants you to shoot a 30 caliber as these deer can and will take a bullet. Shot placement is the key.....sure you have a little margin for error, but it is so darn thick, the risk of loosing an animal and specifically a trophy is great with a poor shot. Thus the reason i bought a 300 mag. I have shot it 4 times, killed each time.....one deer went 10 yards, the rest dropped in their tracks......

On the issue of a 30/30....I would not shoot one at anything unless it was short distance and heavy cover.......ever again.....their are too many guns with better balistics out there.

Is there really overkill? Especially if it gets the job done? And if you like it, confident in it and know what it can and cannot do?

Okay, hopefully "The Great, Is A 30-06 Too Big For Hunting Deer In Texas, OR Why The 30-30 Is A Piece Of Crap" debate is over, and this topic can get productive again.
Nearly everyone of us that have responded to this topic, have expressed the same point. This young man needs to keep looking until HE finds something that he enjoys shooting and is comfortable with, and then he will be able to build his confidense in the use of it.
We can pass on the knowledge we have gained from our experiences, but he may never run in to the situations or conditions that we have.
One thing though, and this is not meant to be a slam or an insult to you Steve or anybody else that believes in them, but I think personnally that promoting head/neck shots to inexperienced hunters is bad advice. I feel that they need to build up all of their confidence with their new rifle at the range, before going out on a hunt. Then when they go out, they need to concentrate on hitting the deer, not a piece there of. Besides not everybody is going to be shooting from a camoflaged benchrest. Then after he has taken a few deer, he can progress to those more difficult shots. There are a lot of guides out in the West, that don't have a lot of use for Texans and their head/neck shots. This is just my opinion, but as I stated earlier on this topic, this young man needs to try and shoot as many different guns as he possibly can, until he finds something that he is impressed with.
The rest of us can drag this out as far as we did the Black Panther thingy, but in the end it will be his choice, and he will be the only one to know for sure if it was the right choice.
Of course, if he is as interested in hunting as he seems, by the end of 5 years, he will be like the rest of us, looking thru his gun cabinet 2 weeks before opening day shopping for a date.

Either a 270 or a 30/06 will harvest any animal in N. America. I have shot lots with smaller and bigger. Personally, my favorite is my 7 mag.....I just like it, it fits, I have confidence in it, from 0 to 436 yards....wish it was 450, but the hog was at 436 so say the range finder....:D:D

No matter what caliber, brand or style you get...one thing that you need to make sure of is you put a quality optic on it....Binoculars are for looking, scopes are for shooting and you want to be clear and right on when you look thru the scope.....

Sorry, that most of us seem to be OOF"S (OPINIONATED OLD FARTS). I really think it would be scary to know the accumulative amount of hunting knowledge that there is on this forum, but you do seem to be figgerin it out.
All of us vetran hunters have our likes and dislikes, but most of us are going to give fairly similar advice, even though we are going to give it with our own twist on it.
For someone such as yourself, using the suggestions you are getting from all of us will help a little, looking at as many, and if possible getting to fire as many of the different calibers and brands of rifles available will be the best way to make a decision.
Once you decide on a specific caliber/rifle/scope combination, work with it until it becomes an extention of your being, just as a carpenter does his saws or hammers.
A hunting rifle is a tool, treat it as such. No matter if you end up with 20 or 30 good big game rifles, there will be some or one that you will instinctively reach for when you open the gun case, it is your friend, and it gives you the power and ability to harvest game cleanly and humanely, and it is your one true friend that if you care for it properly and feed it the right ammunition, it will not let you down. Don't worry about what other people think of your choice, it is after all your choice and not theirs.
This coming from a man that has gone to regularly shooting whitetails with a 375 H&H and is trying to talk his poor suffering wife into letting him get a 416 Rigby.

Post deleted by First_Chance

I use real high quality optics on my 375. That scope has kept zero after close to 300 rounds fired thru that big rifle. I have taken Elk, Musk Ox, Feral Hog, Coyote, and Whitetail with that rifle/scope combination and have no no problems what so ever with it, and that scope is still just as clear as the day I put it on that rifle. Oh, I almost forgot, the scope is a $60.00 Cabela's Pine Ridge 6 power. Sorry, but the only reason any one needs a scope that costs more than a rifle, is to have a motre costly toy. I have 2 Weatherby Rifles, 1 is a Mark V Deluxe with a Weatherby Premier scope on it, I have not been able to tell in over 10 years that either of those Weatherby's is better than ANY of the Rugers I have. If a lot of folks would stop spending so DAMN much money on not really necessary equipment, and start putting that extra cash toward that lease fee.
The average Texas hunter, hunting from a ground blind or tower stand, overlooking a feeder at 100 to 200 yards away has really about as much use for a high priced scope, to help make 2 or 3 shots during a normal year, as a boar hog has for TEATS.
The money that people put toward high end scopes, 4 wheelers, camoflage clothing, ad infinitum, could be put toward one HELL of a hunt on a place where if you shot something big enough to make B&C, it would, it wouldn't be on a high fence ranch.
Pardon me for heading this a whole different direction, but more and more, I see folks sticking these high dollar scopes on their rifles and then complain about lease fees. Instead of putting a $500.00 or higher scope on that rifle, put a $150.00 to $250.00 scope on that same gun and use that money to upgrade your hunting area.
Not really meaning to piss anyone off, BUT, way to many of our new scopes and other equipment available out there, is designed, to compenste for the lack of expertise or ability on the part of newer hunters. Older hunters only buy the gimmicks to enhance their abilities, not replace them. JMO

Crazyhorse, most folks are happy with what they have until they've tried something better. Your $60.00 Cabela's Pine Ridge 6 power is great, but once you've used a good Nikon 12x50 with really good light enhancement, that $60 scope becomes a little less appealing.

NO< it doesn't, at least not for me. You may hunt more than I do, and in different areas than I do, but all I see and hear, is people trying to compensate forinabilities or lack of good judgement by buying equipment that will let them push that window of shoot/not shoot too far. It is one thing to shoot at a deer a tad too early in the morning, because it is getting lighter. Extending that window at dusk can and often does mean a lost animal. TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO LET HIGH DOLLAR EQUIPMENT OVER-RULE GOOD JUDGEMENT AND COMMON SENCE. Those big European scopes are built for the way those folks hunt, which includes shooting Red Deer at night by moomlight. Last time I checked, that is illegal im most or all of the U.S. I just do not nor will not buy anyones arguement that there is a need for the average hunter to spend that kind of money on equipment, when it could be put toward having a better place to hunt. This is my opinion and I am not asking anyone to agree with it. People want to spend a lot of money on gadgets and then complain about lease fees, I just maintain that if they would skip the gadgets and hype, they could afford those higher end hunts.

Post deleted by First_Chance

There was a lot of game killed by the likes of Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor and Lee Wulff before either one of us was born. I have set and watched people crank variables up on high power, only to have game walk out at less than a hundred yards, then, by the time they realized what was wrong, the game was gone. You ask most hunters that do a lot of shooting at game, and most of them keep those variables on 4 or 6 power for nearly every shot. There will be exceptions, as I have said before, novices should not be encouraged to take shots beyond their abilities, or do you think that is wrong. As Bradbury said a few posts back, scopes are for SHOOTING AT GAME , NOT TO GLASS GAME.

CHC I must admit I really had doubts about a fixed power scope before I shot your rifle on Saturday. I was surprised at how good the target looked through it.

Post deleted by First_Chance

I agree with crazyhorse on the power of rifle scopes. Its my opinion as well that you don't really need a 32X adjustable power scopre on a rifle like a 30-06 to take game. If you want to see the game up close, thats what spotting scopes and binoculars are for!

I am SORRY that I took your post wrong. I just feel that way to many folks, want to let technology take the place of actual experience. If you have someone that you have helped learn the proper way to do things, than that is great. I just have seen way too many folks that want to let technology, take the place of learned knowledge. I wish that I didn't feel the way I do about this, but I taught myself how to hunt deer, and duck, and dove, and it just bothers the piss out of me to know that there are a lot of folks out there hunting that are so dependent on technology, that they really don't know what a true western big game hunt is. I am a native Texan and DAMN proud of it, but hunting in TEXAS is not the be all end all. We have a real special situation in TEXAS, by being able to hunt over bait, out of a stand.
I know that I took this topic in a direction that I probably shouldn't have, but I just feel that we have a lot of folks growing up that really don't know what hunting actually is, and because our society has become so enamored with the instant gratifacation aspect, that they don't rerally know that you have to work for a good deer. JMO

CHC I know that you aren't a very big fan of "instant gratifacation", but when I shot that .375 H&H this weekend and completely DISENTEGRATED the target...........well if you can't call that instant gratification then I don't know what you'd call it. LOL

I really apprecite your opinion of the big rifle, but I don't expect everyone to want to try hunting with something that big, or with a 416 Rigby, if I get one. Me and you are both good size boys, and we aren't affected by recoil the same way others are.
McPatrick Clan might be affected by the recoil of a larger rifle. Therefore, he is going to need to find something that will cover his hunting needs, without beating the crap out of him.
That means that he can look at all of the following, and shouldn't have any problems.
243, 257 Roberts. 25-06, 260 Rem., 7x57, 7mm-08, 308, 300 Savage, 270 W.C.F., 280, 30-05.
All of us giving this advice have our opinions, but if we want to keep this person interested in hunting, than we need to work with him on this problem, and help him realize that we support his decision on his choice of rifles.

You guys have all been a big help. You may think that all the "noise in the kitchen" in this thread is just a bunch of back-and-forth debating, but for a sponge like me, it's really helpful! I am reading all your posts and taking away a lot of good info.

I know more about rifles & scopes now than I did before. Much more!

Glad we could help, sometimes too much info., just bogs people down, but I think you have a good understanding of what you need to try. Good Luck

Spanky

I'm glad to see my overly long hiccup didn't kill the thread!!
Like CHC and some others I also prefer heavier for caliber bullets than the fastest available as I find them to give better penetration..."long slow bullets" yadda yadda, ie 165's in an '06, or 150's in my 270's 'cause they give better overall performance at longer distances.

Shot placement is the primary key to a clean kill no matter what you are shooting or at what animal...

And my last thought on the 30/30 vs 30/06 subject would be...I'd take an '06 bullet of any weight at any speed, fast or slow, for any game animal over anything ever invented for a 30/30...due to the better bullet construction as opposed to the limitations imposed by the thin skinned flat nosed 30/30 bullets that are designed to open at speeds under 1000fps but have no energy left to cleanly take a game animal.

Thats the bottom line....energy on target with a bullet that will penetrate. Works on everything from bunny rabbits to Cape Buffalo.
Ron

PS
CHC - back in the day ...one year I carried a sample of a 20" fiberglass 375 Holland I had ordered for the Dallas Safari Club Show at the request of an Alaskan fising guide service. In those days I could custom order almost anything in lots of 10 rifles or more and they wound up buying more than that. It seems that they were have an inordinate number of brown bear problems in their concession area and the 12 guage slugs were not adequate, and wanted this gun with the sling studs mounted strangely and regular iron sights or in a "battue" setup, in this configuration so they could carry it upside down and not interfer with a fly rod's back cast.
The little gun would really roar and at 6 1/2 lbs nekkid it pushed me plumb off the bench and swivel seat at Elm Fork at the first range session and left me on my back all the way off the shooters sidewalk in the dirt 'cause Dumb Azz had locked his heels together around the seat post to get comfy like he has since 1965...and the range master liked to have had a heart attack until I started laughing. I had shot the gun a little bit off hand and knew it would push me around but...LOL! not like that! LOL! I learned to shoot the boomer off the bench crouched over the bench like a offensive guard with both feet behind me and let it lift me up a foot or so when I touched off and eventually ran a couple hundred rounds thru it with a Tasco 1-4 on top. I never could get the rings tight enough to keep the scope from moving and finally just let the scope's turrets ride against the rings and the scope never flinched. I was satisfied with the 1 1/2" groups it shot too. I sold the scope to a Carrollton PD and never heard any complaints back from him! Some other funny stories about that gun if we ever have time to kill a case of brewski's.
RV

Kind of like I have said elsewhere, I would not recommend what I shoot to anyone. I wouldn't personnally have any of these (and don't), but it is just my preference, as I have seen a lot of game killed with these calibers by the people that like them. 30-06, 270, 308, 243, 30-30, 223, 222, 22-250. They are all great calibers, I just don't like them. As for the 375, the one I have is pleasurable, at least to me, to shoot even off of the bench. I can run 20 or more rounds thru it with no ill effects. I can't do that with my 300 and 340 Weatherby's. Five or 10 rounds out of either of those, get unpleasant.
As for my preferences of fixed power scopes, I just don't really think enough people, especially Texans that have grown up hunting out of stands, realize that the less mechanical stuff you have to mess up on a hunt for elk and such, the better off you are. That high dollar variable messes up when your 30 or more miles from any kind of a gun shop, and 2 days into a 5 day elk hunt, a person will wish they had that old fixed power without all them adjustment features to have gone haywired. Also, I wonder how many folks carry a back-up rifle and ammo with them in case things do go south with their primary gun.

I will say first off that I'm no expert when it comes to firearms, but I want to tell you about these 30-30's. I grew up hunting with a lever action 30-30 that was given to my father as a high school graduation gift. This was the only deer rifle that he ever owned. For the first several years I used it, as a kid, it didn't even have a scope on it. He passed away in 1987, and left this rifle to me, and last year, I gave this rifle to my son. Having said all that, this rifle has killed many, many deer, and while most all of the deer were killed within 150 yards or so, the bullets passed completely through every deer that was shot leaving a good size hole. Neither my father, myself, or my son has ever shot a deer with this rifle that we didn't recover. So, for short range, how much more do you need?

Put the crosshairs on the shoulder, squeeze the trigger slowly, head to the taxidermist. You guys know way too much about this stuff!!!LOL!