I started using the reduced recoil shells in my 30-06 a couple of years ago, and have noticed that they don't seem to pattern well. Also, they don't seem to kill like I remember my old 30-06 shells did. I've been using a 30-06 for about 15 years. I shot a buck at about 70 yards year before last, he was quartering towards me slightly. The bullet struck just behind the shoulder which caused it to exit just in front of the hind quarters. Now normally this would have been a fatal wound even with such poor shot placement and the deer would have died rather quickly. Instead the deer ran for some 500 yards and I didn't find it until the next day. Last year I shot a buck at about 90 yards broadside right behind the shoulder and the although the deer didn't run very far, I had to shoot it again 2 more times, one shot in the neck(10 yards) that didn't kill the deer, and finally a fatal chest shot at 10 yards that finally killed the buck. I must be completely honest, I am not nor have ever been accused of being a really good shot, but I wonder if the 125 gr. has anything to do with my misery with the last two deer, or just coincidence. I have hunted for 25+ years, so I am not new to shooting, but just seems quirky to me. I really like the reduced recoil, but not to the extent of losing deer. Anybody else have any similar results with reduced recoil?

What brand of reduced recoil ammo are you using?

My son used Remington Managed Recoil .30-30 to shoot a deer last year. One round broadside through the ribs at a measured 32 yards. The bullet went between the ribs on both sides and exited. The deer flinched, stood looking around for about 5 seconds and fell over dead. Both lungs were trashed. The .30-30 load has a 125gr Corelokt SP at a nominal 2175fps.

I wouldn't expect the reduced loads to have as large a margin for error as most regular full power loads but it doesn't sound like you had bad hits on either deer you shot with them. I'm surprised the first deer ran that far after that kind of hit unless you were chasing it. If I know I made a good hit on a deer I let them go and just wait for a little while so they can calm down and pass out from lack of O2 to their brain. If they are pursued they can go a long way even with a good hit.

How much internal damage did the bullets do on those deer?

Maybe you could try a different brand of reduced recoil ammo?

I'm not criticizing but I'm curious why you had to shoot the second deer two more times? You said it didn't go far so why not just wait for it to fall or bed down?

Wildbill,

I don't shoot trophy deer but I put a lot of time in on the range with AR15 style rifles (working towards my 20-20-20).

My question to you is about force, what ft lbs are these reduced recoil bullets delivering at 100 yards?

A typical 180g 30/06 delivers about 2500 ft.lbs. at 100 yards.

Michael Beran

I've been witness to two deer shot with the .270 caliber Remington Managed Recoil Loads, 115 grain, both were DRT (dead right there). One was at 70 yards, the other at around 30, neither ran, took a step, or even twitched when they hit the ground. One was hit in the shoulder broadside and the bullet was under the skin on the backside shoulder. The other was hit where the shoulder and neck meet.

As far as accuracy, while sighting in the rifle I put two in the same hole, and the third was touching the first two. However, that particular rifle is fairly accurate with just about any brand and weight of bullet.

I would lean towards it being a finicky rifle that doesn't like that particular brand of ammo or that particular weight. My 30-06 shoots 165 grain better than anything else (it isn't brand specific just weight)

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I would lean towards it being a finicky rifle that doesn't like that particular brand of ammo or that particular weight. My 30-06 shoots 165 grain better than anything else (it isn't brand specific just weight)

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I think PaulB may have hit on the situation. Try some 150 grain or above weight bullets and check the results, both at the bench and in the hair. Depending on the rate of twist of the rifling in the barrel of your rifle it may be tossing those 125 grain bullets all over the place. JMO.

i personally would't put alot of stock into anything reduced recoil round, other than maybe a .300 mag.

i've seen deer go along way after being hit perfectly by magnum rifles, i would't want to handicap myself with a reduced load.

if you don't like the kick, go buy something with a muzzle brake or get a mercury tube in the stock.

Take this however you would like but a perfectly hit deer doesn't run. Big guns don't mean dead deer.

Recoil Managment loads are more than adequate to take deer at moderate ranges and serve a purpose for small framed hunters who cannot handle magnum rounds and don't want to end up deaf from a muzzle break.

While I agree with you on your earlier response on this thread, I do not agree with this response:

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Take this however you would like but a perfectly hit deer doesn't run. Big guns don't mean dead deer.

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I hit an eight point thru the top of the heart, in fact the whole top third of the heart was "hamburgered", at less than 50 yards, and that sucker ran over 60 yards.

It is pretty well accepted that heart shot deer, under most circumstances will run from 3 to 100 yards, with a well placed shot.

Neck/head/spine shots are the only ones I have ever seen that consistently put a deer down in its tracks.

i know that everybody is different, but i'm 5'5, and around 145lbs, and i've never had any problem shooting a .270, 7mm or a 30-06.

i agree reduced recoil rounds are a good idea for young shooters who want to "grow" into a certain deer rifle,its probably better than a .22 centerfire but not for a adult male to shoot big game animals with.

i've seen deer run off after being heart/lung shot with a .300 mag at 80 yards, haveing both shoulders blown out with a 7mm, heart shot deer run for over 100 yards with a .270 and one apparently bullet proof axis buck take 3 130 grain ballistic tips, one in the shoulder, lungs and neck, before going down. all these from standard loads. why take a chance with a low power load using a bullet that dosen't have a very high sectional density?

I guess I should clarify. A deer will run even hit with a good shot, but not with a perfect shot. As CHC mentioned, the way to get a deer to drop is to make the brain stop talking with the rest of the body, that's the prefect shot.

This is where I differ from most as that I am not a proponent of a heart shot. I know a lot of deer are taken every year by heart shots, I just don't like it and do not consider it the perfect shot. An animal can run a long way without any blood running through their body. I prefer hitting them at the base of the neck where the shoulder and neck meet. Hit them there and they go down.

In an attempt not to hijack this thread, Managed recoil loads work for their intended purpose, just probably not in that particular rifle. Get a recoil pad and try heavier bullets.

Wow, someone else that doesn't heart shoot deer. I thought I was the only one.

paulb i agree that the neck shot is usually the best place, if you neck shoot deer, a reduced recoil round is fine, but the original poster did not.

i also find it funny that the rifle did't group well with these loads, normally a lower powered handload will be more accurate

They were Remington 125's. I shot the deer two more times because when I walked up on him, he was trying to get up. Then after shooting him the second time, he was still trying to get up and was obviously in a bad way. I thought it was the humane thing to do. Any maybe you guys are right, maybe my rifle just doesn't like the 125gr. The first deer that ran so far was tore up from entrance to exit. I didn't gut the second ( I rarely gut deer), but I saw the neck wound and it looked like it should have been lethal. I think I'll try Hornady's.

Ok ...I know my opinion is sometimes taken wrong...but in this case it has to do with two things that I see as the problem.

Reduced Recoil Loads and 125 gr 30 caliber bullets are poor choices IMO for deep CONSISTENT penetration on deer sized animals as they DON'T HAVE the same penetrating power of a heavier - read more Heavily - constructed bullet. If ya'll have ever bothered to read anything I've said about bullets, it is the same thing over and over. Thin jacketed light for caliber HIGH SPEED bullets don't penetrate as well as slower thicker jacketed normal to heavier for caliber bullets do.

Nothing magical to Reduced Recoil loads as they use the same Laws of Physics as we have been using since guns were invented. All the RR's loads are is the same thing Handloaders have been doing FOREVER...tuning a load for a particular application...or in this case a load that doesn't kick as much as a standard load.

After the doc's ripped up all the nerve trunks - cut 5 and dug all the way to my spinal cord ripping out the nerves & intertwined roots to get the Whole Thing out in one piece from my hairline behind my right ear to my collarbone in front at the sternum knuckle to my shoulder blade in the back, in my neck and shoulder last year while digging out the roots of a massive softball sized tumor ...I have not been able to pull the trigger on nuthin until the last few weeks. H#@*! I couldn't even touch my chin or my ear for the first 60 days much less hold a rifle up!! but the doc's would not let me wear my arm in a sling or I would have been permanently disabled. Since I handload I did two things to get ready for this year...I DOWNSIZED A CALIBER going from a 270 to a 6.5x55, & DOWNLOADED the speed of the regular sized hunting bullets I'm shooting. Surprisingly, I can also shoot/tolerate the same kind of downloads in my 300WMg as the gun is that much heavier than the 6.5Swede is and soaks up the Winnie's heavier punch in the barely faster than a 30'06's handloads with normal regular hunting bullets...and I am good to go out to 300 yards! with ammo loaded in regular proven deep penetrating hunting bullets that shoot great in MY guns instead of some light for caliber thin jacketed varmint bullet factory ammo that is NOT tuned for my rifles.

Yes I know millions of deer have been killed with the RR's & 30 cal 125 gr'ers and this not a challenge to prove me wrong 'cause I really don't care ... BUT if YOU are having a problem with this ammo not killing deer successfully because of a failure to penetrate ... CHANGE AMMO...LEARN TO HANDLOAD ...or get a gun you can tolerate to shoot with full house loads with normal bullets either by fixing the one you got or changing calibers...I thought I had to, when the answer was to download and tune the ammo for my guns.

Bullet Placement is the next issue...as had been 'cussed and discussed repeatedly ever since this and every other form of communication from a deer camp's evening fire get togther to every Forum on the 'net ... the only other argument that has been repeated as often is about the "best caliber" rock to throw.

I am of the camp that sez IF you are concerned about the possibity of not being able to shoot a deer DRT with no tracking available due to heavy brush, critter gonna fall off a mountain, downa hole yadda yadda then shoot the critter's wheels out from under him and BREAK HIM DOWN RIGHT THERE ON THE SPOT... and forget the plain and fancy trick shots UNLESS you are dead nutz certain you can make THAT shot 100 times out of a 100 shots... and I've killed lots of critters with neck shots, but EVERY shot's circumstance is different. Show me someone who brags about I allus take nuthin' but neck shots...and I'll show you someone who is going to loose a critter when he wants it the most. BTDT too. I look at the bullet placement idea as a complete pass thru 'cause I shoot nuthin but bullets that will do that everytime no matter what speed they are running within my self imposed max range, with a 360* view of the mechanical stucture, the A/C & ventilation system, and the hydralic systems of the critter ...and then decide how many of them I need to/can bust wide open ON BOTH SIDES to make it as easy as possible to recover the critter ... before I ever think about pulling the trigger.
JMHO but YMMV
Ron

I've killed six deer (two does, one spike, one 5-point, one ten-point, one fallow buck) with six shots using Remington Managed Recoil in .30-06.

Most of the deer have run a few yards; two were DRTs (the spike and one doe). The heaviest of the deer, the 10-point, dressed out at 132 pounds. Most of the rest were under 100 pounds.

At the target range, I average about 2-3" groups, which is normal for me.

I'm sold on the stuff, at least for deer in Texas.

One thing that the ballistics charts, don't tell a person, is that the 45 more grains of bullet weight, and the shape of the bullet, are going to make the 30-30 a much more potent round then the 125 grainer out of the 06'.

Ballistics tables do not take into accout the effect on flesh and bone, of a slow moving, heavier, round or flat nosed bullet versus a faster moving, lighter, spire or spitzer shaped bullet.

There are just too many variables in the whole scenario.

As I have stated before, in hunting and dealing with wildlife, there are no absolutes.

What might appear to be an identical shot as the past 50 you have taken on animals, in all reality may not be.

Instead of standing broadside as it may appear to be doing, it could be quartered slightly toward or away from you, yet because of the distance, the light, the terrain, and who know what all else it may be angled just enough to cause the bullet to angle away from the intended destination. JMO.

WildBill, there are only two ways to measure one bullet against another in terms of killing power. All a ballistics table is going to show you is the flight path of the bullet as an expression of speed and that has no relation to penetration of a target. Light for caliber aerodynamic bullets will always be able to be driven faster than heavier flat point or round nose bullets as the less aerodynamic the bullet is, the more energy is required is to drive it at a higher speed...and a 30-30 case holds substantially less powder than a 30'06 case does by about 40%. IE... you are comparing apples & oranges.

Factory Penetration tests that are usually done in gelatin/animal fat blocks, or the home made way of binding wet newspaper/phonebooks etc together interspresed with thin sheets of plywood to simulate bone structure are the only way in a controlled environment to attempt to replicate what happens inside an animal, and recover the bullet 100% of the time. I trust the wet newspaper tests far more than the lab done gelatin blocks to give an accurate depiction of what happens to the bullet inside a critter on impact. The 2nd way is an estimation of penetration power by looking at two numbers: Sectional Density of a given bullet which is not an accurate measurment of a bullets "crush strength" & lb's of energy (also a product of bullet speed) expressed either for the whole undamaged bullet or on a per grain basis.

Typically bullets with higher SD's are tougher and penetrate better, again depending on bullet shape and construction.

Using the Speer 13 Edition Reloading Manual for Speer bullets I find that their 125 gr TNT-HP varmint bullet has a SD of .188 & their 130gr HP has a SD of .196. Their 30-30 bullets, that are designed for use in a tubular magazine, in a 150gr Flat-SP has a SD of .226 & their 170gr Flat-SP has a SD of 2.56.

Given those numbers X's the estimated expected impact speeds I would suspect that a 30-30 in 170's would almost always out penetrate a RR 125 gr'er at under 125-150 yards...over that the RR's higher speeds will allow it to impact at a higher speed and potentially allow the RR's bullet to maintain whatever ability it had for penetration at a longer range.

When I downloaded my 300WMg I also went to a lighter bullet to help reduce recoil, from my normal 180 gr'ers at the max3100 fps with an SD of .247 to 165gr'ers with an SD of .247 at 2900 fps which is well under the normal 3200 fps for this bullet...and is still very sufficient for WT, MuleDeer & Elk out to 3-400 yards. Where I lost some ground is the BC's of the 165gr'er is .477 X's the 180's BC of .540...which computes to more ability to retain long range energy in the heavier bullet. I also lost the heavier bullets slightly better Impact Energy with the 165 at 3300lb's of MuzzleEnergy compared to the 180's 3600 lb's ME. Now these numbers may not seem like much difference but this was all I needed to reduce the recoil to a manageable level. I had experimented with a 150gr'ers initially as well that had a BC of .389 & ME's of 3000lbs but wanted to stay with as heavy a bullet as possible for the deeper penetration available out at the fringes of my max range. Remember the lower the BC # the quicker the bullet speed & Impact energy drops. This is just an illustration of what happens to all bullets in any caliber...and why a given bullets SD & BC #'s are so important. And another reason why handloading gives me this kind of flexibility to tune a load for a particular application.

Hope you can understand what I'm saying.
Ron

Wiley, While I truly appreciate the physics lesson, I was just saying that two bullets of near same size are driven at near same velocity for the same distance, with near same force. I just didn't realize that the 125gr. RR and the 30-30 were that close in ballistics. That kinda made me wonder why I was using the RR in the first place instead of shooting my 30-30.

WB Prolly 'cause the magic "IF" crossed your mind, like it did mine, when I was considering a soft load to get back in the game with about the RR's better Range over the 30-30.

I even bought a box RR 270's last March when I thought I could tolerate pulling the trigger again and was told not by my PT lady. I mentioned shooting to my Pain Mgmt doc last week and got that same look of "I don't believe your asking me if you cna do that"...so what he doesn't know won't hurt him. Years back I had 'nuther doc tell me about the same kind of issues..."If it hurts don't do it anymore ...at least until it stops hurting".

The other issue I was trying to address is the difference in the gun's weight being able to absorb some of the actual felt recoil...and every 30-30 I've looked at always seems lighter than a "normal" deer rifle and would pass that recoil yadda yadda.

As mentioned I've chosen to change my primary deer rifle's calibers to something that really does kick a lot less - about like a 243, but also offers me as a handloader the ability to use a wide range of bullets that are capable of taking the place of my 270 in ranges out to my self imposed 3-350 yards. An I have never unwrapped the new Tikka 270 Lite(@ 6lbs 3ozs! that weighs about as much as a 30-30) I bought last fall. I am thouroughly enjoying the Tikka Swede as it reminds me of my old M70 257Roberts performance only with lots more options for bullet selection and wondering why I never bought one of these before... duoh!

Good luck with the season.
Ron

Wish I had a .243, maybe my wife will get me one for Christmas. I think I'll be better off using the 150's and getting a SIMS kickpad. I killed many deer with them and guess my gun shot them better, at least I felt somewhat more confident. Thanks for the info!

WB ...don't buy a 243 ...buy a 260 or 7-08 and shoot almost as soft a recoil level as the 243 only in 120 & 140 gr bullets instead of the 80 & 100 gr bullets a 243 is using. Same size & weight gun, same parent bullet case as the 243 but 50 years newer in technology. The 260 Remmy is the 1990's American 308 based version of the 6.5x55 Swede I've been talking about, and the 7-08 is the same thing whn compared to a 7x57 Mauser. Whats new is that the gun industry has finally recognized the reason those old rounds were so successful at killing stuff for so long and Remington has simply re packaged them in a more modern 308 based case...and both of them are bigtime better than what a 243 offers. JMHO

I chose the 6.5x55 Swede because the Tikka T3 I wanted did not offer a 260 but had offered the 6.5x55 Swede in 2006. So I scrambled around until I found one. I'll probably wind up with a CZ 6.5x55 FullStock carbine in 2008 and maybe some others too...I like it that much for White Tails & hogs. The long bullets in the faster twisted barrels fly super accurate, and is still used in benchrest competition which is where the 260 & 7-08 both came from, and give deeper pentration than the same weight bullets in some other calibers with slower barrel twist rates...and don't kick as much...which is what I need on my 63 year old sugically damaged shoulder for an everyday shooter that I can stand for mebbe 500-1000 rounds a year off the bench. I don't play golf, I don't do a lot of other hobby's...shooting a rifle is/was my 1st hobby and I've been away from it too long and having a ball being able to shoot again. And there is the idea of "The more I shoot ...the better a shot I become on game" 'cause practice makes perfect. Take a look at these other calibers before you buy something that won't give you as much performance as you want. Good Luck
Ron

What about bullet availability? As long as WalMart has them, alls good. What about a .25-06?

Walmart should have the 7-08 for sure and prolly will have the 260's. I know Academy, Gander Mtn and the other big box retailers all do. Also check out the online distributors that will deliver stuff to the house like Midway, Graf & Son's, Midsouth and so on. Big time BETTER ammo selection and not much difference than WalMart prices after you add the Sales Tax.

I don't see any real advantage in a 25'06 except slightly less recoil than 30'06 ( and why I have shot a 270 & 300WMg as my do all pair for 30+ years until this year), but you are restricted to 120gr bullets max and usually very very limited bullet/brand selection especially at Walmart. 25'06 ammo is about the same price as 260 & 7-08 ammo too, so again no advantage.
IF you decide to jump in, handloading offers the best answer after you recover the initial cost of getting set up of about $250-$350 total, and allows you to "tune" even your 30'06 or any other rifle/pistol for lower recoil levels/better accuracy and/or use better bullets for less than the cost of Walmart '06 ammo.

I spend about $9 a box total for medium caliber (6.5, 243, 270, 30'06 etc) non mag reloaded ammo, using name brand "non premium" bullets, & about $10-12 a box for my 300WMg as it burns a little more powder. So you can see how much per box you can save especially when comparing apples to apples in the bullets. For Example ...Gander Mtn gets $35-$40 a box for name brand Nosler/Sierra bullets in a 270/'06 that I am loading for that same $9-$12 a box using the same bullets. Doesn't take long to pay for the initial cost of getting setup to reload at those prices.
Ron

I was in a Wally World the other day and spent a few minutes looking at what they offered in the way of ammo, along with what they didn't offer.

In the store I was in, the smallest centerfire rifle cartridges were 223 Rem the largest were 300 Win Mag.

That sounds like a fairly wide range except, there were none of the following for sale:
222 Rem.
22 Hornet.
257 Roberts.
6.5x55.
7mm-08.
7x57.
260 Rem.
280.
284.

That particular store, here in Fort Worth, did offer the following calibers, but I did not pay close attention to the grain weights they had.
223.
243.
25-06.
270.
7mm Rem Mag.
30-30.
308.
30-06.
300 Win Mag.

I am beginning to think the deciding factor a person should consider before purchasing a rifle is ammunition availability, and I am not talking about premium ammo, I am talking about ammo in general.