It was in response to Ray Sasser's article on dove hunting. Joe Miele, the author, paints a pretty good picture of the intent of the "activists"....the banning of ALL hunting. I question why the DMN would even give this gentleman a forum. Thoughts?

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I question why the DMN would even give this gentleman a forum. Thoughts?

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$$$$

Yes. Unbelievable.

I ADITMALY DISAGREE WITH THEM BUT THIS IS AMERICA.

Link?

I always wondered how many of them animal rights people swat flies,and wear leather shoes,and buy stuff made in communist China by slave labor. I think a lot of them just like to whine.

No, Chuck, I'm not an lawman. But if aproached on the subject of the use of deadly force, I'd shoot first and ask questions later! Just kiddin'

And trust me , I'm not sweatin' it at all. I just thought it was interesting that a letter from this activist was printed....my .02.

Freedom of Speech comes to mind.

Do you feel that only ONE groups thoughts or opinions on a subject should be printed???????

Does the fact that two politicians in New Jersey are trying their best to get ALL HUNTING AND FISHING, banned in New Jersey mean anything.

Folks, some of us need to pull our heads out of our rumps and look beyond the Texas State Line.

There is a big push in a lot of places to start getting hunting and fishing, if not completely banned, so severely restricted that the average person will quit even trying.

Answer this question if you would, how long would you or anyone else continue to buy a hunting/fishing license, If You Could Neither Fish Or Hunt?????

Would you continue buying a license, just so the few that could participate, continue to do so?

License sales for both fishing and hunting are in a decline nationwide.

What will be the need for Game and Fish Departments, if No One can either fish or hunt?

Yes, the animal rights groups want to do away with hunting and fishing and pet ownership and rqising livestock of any kind for meat for human consumption.

A bunch of us are not paying attention to what is happening nationwide, that will eventually affect us in the states.

Also, hunters and fishermen are not the only people that read the sports page. Think of the folks, that even though they may not hunt or fish now, that grew up doing both. When they read such articles, they may decide to take the side of outdoors men and point out the inaccuracies and fallicies in those type letters. JMO.

No, was it an ad he bought? I can't find it online.

I googled him and he is an extremist. Seems he writes and does interviews all around the country against hunting... He is some member of a committee to end sport hunting. Just let me know what these groups have ever done? I mean specific examples of what this CASH group has actually accomplished? I am not talking about their awareness crap. What bills and laws have they passed?

http://www.the-daily-record.com/news/simple_article/2485521

http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/media-joe-miele-200503.html


I like that group that got buffalo hunts postponed in Wyoming (think that was the state) where may 80 or so would have been hunted. Now the population has exploded and now there will be 800 or so permits issued due to them knuckleheads putting up red tape only to have it cut and allow more hunts!!! haaahaaa.

Here is an article I ran across on another forum.

Changes to Fish and Game Council would threaten hunting . . .
Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 09/13/07
BY ANTHONY P. MAURO SR.

Instituting a law to prohibit fishing would be unimaginable only a generation ago. Fishing is so intertwined in New Jersey's recreational and economic past and present that it is hard to imagine living without it. Sadly, Monmouth County politicians may outlaw this essential part of our outdoor heritage.

Legislative bills A-3275 and S-2041 have been introduced by Assemblyman Michael Panter and Sen. Ellen Karcher, both D-Monmouth. These bills will eliminate freshwater fishing, hunting and trapping in New Jersey. It will be achieved by changing the structure of the Fish and Game Council.

The council now includes 11 people knowledgeable about conservation principles and wildlife management techniques. Represented are farmers, sportsmen, a person with an understanding of land management and soil conservation, and the chairman of the Endangered and Nongame Species Advisory Committee. To ensure the integrity of the selection process, people are recommended by the state agricultural convention and the state Federation of Sportsman's Clubs to the governor.

Under the proposed bills, there would be little or no requirement for people versed in conservation principles and wildlife management techniques. The council would be pared to seven members, only two of whom would be farmers. All members would be chosen by the recommendation and advice of the Senate, instead of an unbiased and legitimate commissions. This politicizes the selection process, which could be easily exploited by those with an agenda.

The current statute governing the Fish and Game Council provides for conserving freshwater fish, game birds, game animals and fur-bearing animals for public recreation and food supply. The proposed bills change the council's purpose by deleting all consideration for the use and development of fish and game for public recreation and food supply. Since freshwater fishing, hunting and trapping are all recreation-based and largely driven by a need for food supply, the bills ostensibly eliminate these activities.

Controlling the things we eat is not new for Panter and Karcher. Both are vegetarians. Both initiated the ban on goose liver sales and trans fats. Interestingly, both represent constituents in District 12 — home to a network of animal rights activism.

The New Jersey Animal Rights Alliance of Manalapan operates a nonprofit organization that claims dedication to ending animal exploitation. But this is no folksy protest group. Its director is listed as a press officer for the Animal Liberation Press Office, a publication set up to relay information to the media about action undertaken by the Animal Liberation Front and other radical animal-rights groups. The FBI has identified ALF as one of America's primary domestic terrorist threats.

The Animal Protection PAC, also based in Manalapan. was established to advance the animal rights agenda through donations to like-minded politicians. In 2005, it donated nearly $1,700 to Panter's re-election campaign. On Sunday, it will host a vegan-catered party for Panter, his running mate Amy Mallet and Karcher.

Also contributing to Panter's campaign is Humane USA, the political action committee of the Humane Society of the United States. Testimony provided to the U.S. Senate by the director of research for the Center for Consumer Freedom revealed the Humane Society funded the operation of an Internet server used to issue ALF-related communications.

Humane USA boasts on its Web site that its state-level giving was not only meaningful, but that Panter would not have been re-elected but for Humane USA's support.

Karcher is the recipient of donations from Panter's political action committee. It is fair to say the funds she received may have originated from the pockets of animal activists.

It is apparent that our representatives in District 12 believe our personal choices should be determined by Trenton elitists. Sponsoring legislation that is directed at changing the Fish and Game Council to advance the interests of a few at the expense of responsible oversight of our state's natural resources is reckless and unconscionable. New Jersey is already experiencing high populations of deer, geese, bear and coyotes due to political interference of wildlife policy.

The current model governing the structure of the council has served our state extraordinarily well. I request that Panter and Karcher remove their misguided bills from consideration and that they refund all forms of donations given by Animal Protection PAC and Humane USA.

I really worry that a lot of folks on BOTH sides of the fence are out of touch with reality.

The folks trying to introduce this type legislation are using purely emotional arguements. They have no scientific evidence to support their claims, and have no concept of how things really are in the field with fish and wildlife populations or how they are managed. The people that are supporting them are just as, IF NOT MORE, mis-informed on the actual state of things.

In my opinion, a lot of hunters and fishermen, feel and think that things are not going to change, and that all the talk of declining hunting and fishing license sales, growing dividing lines among hunters and fishermen over such things equipment used, ethics, catch and release, and several others are just , and should not even be discussed on a forum.

I feel that the attitude of many hunters and fishermen toward these issues, is a living example of the old phrase, "Those who cannot learn from History are doomed to repeat it."

Hunters in Colorado never thought hunting black bear with dogs or over bait would be stopped. Wrong.

The population of the U.S. is changing rapidly in many directions. The ones having the most potential for bringing hunting and fishing to an end, are a continual growing away from the land, the attitude of our news and entertainment media toward the consumptive outdoor sports, the propaganda and $$$$$$ being spread around by HSUS, PETA, Vegans, and other groups to both the media and our politicians, to buy their services or votes.

The list goes on, and with the 2008 political campaign heating up, I see things only getting worse. JMO.

Amen to that!

Just something to think about here, not intending to stir things up.

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Yes it is interesting that somebody is always trying to change things that others enjoy.

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Aren't we ALL guilty of this to varying degrees?

No One Should Shoot Yearling Deer!

A Legal Buck Has To Measure 13" Or Larger Between The Beams!

Turkeys Should Only Be Shot With Shotguns!

High Fence Places Should Be Outlawed!

People That Hunt High Fence Properties, Are Not Real Hunters, And Have No Ethics!

No One Should Catch A Fish And Eat It!

Duck Hunters Are The Only REAL Hunters!

Archers Are The Only Real Hunters!

AR's (Black Rifles) Are The Only Real Hunting Rifle!

My Church Is Best, And If You Don't Attend My Church, Your Going Straight To H_ll!

Bucks Should Not Be Shot Until They Are 4.5 Years Old Or Older!

Deer Do Not Need To Be Hunted With Anything Larger Than A 22 Caliber Centerfire, Smaller Than A 243, Should Only Be Hunted With A Bow!

How many of us make these kind of statements on a daily basis, trying to convince those we are talking to, that our way of thinking or line of reasoning is the best thing since sliced white bread. We are ALL guilty of it to a degree.

With some issues and groups, they just move it to a higher level, both in the scope of whom they are trying to influence and the amount of pressure they use to get their agenda across.

Not real sure where you are headed or what you are trying to get across, but the gist of what I was trying to get across is in the following.

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How many of us make these kind of statements on a daily basis, trying to convince those we are talking to, that our way of thinking or line of reasoning is the best thing since sliced white bread. We are ALL guilty of it to a degree.

With some issues and groups, they just move it to a higher level, both in the scope of whom they are trying to influence and the amount of pressure they use to get their agenda across.

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It does not matter what the statement I, You, or ANYONE else makes, or what subject it is about.

It is fact, that as HUMANS, we ALL, make statements Daily, whether casual or overt expressing our views/beliefs/opinions/ideas on a subject, and whether a person wants to admit it or not, we make those statements trying to influence people into our way of thinking.

The more people an individual can get to agree with their line of thinking or reasoning, the easier it is to get other folks to "Buy In To" that line.

I did not make those statements looking for replies or discussion, I made those statements because they are among the ones we see on this Forum on a regular basis.

These topics are regularly debated on here, because someone posts them looking for support in their belief on that issue.

That is all the guy in the DMN was doing, whether thru a Paid advertisement, or a Letter To The Editor, or whatever the DMN decided to treat it as.

as I say, not sure where you are headed, but me thinks you mis-understood the premise of my response.

Pardone me pardner!! I thought you were looking for responces, my mistake! I will agree that those statements are seen here and on other forums. Its like tunnel vision isn't it. But the ones that make those statements truely believe and are convicted that there is only one way to do things. What really amazes me is I was once like that on certain things, I know I was, and people must have thought I was out in left field! Well, theres nothing wrong with me now, its the rest of the world thats messed up!!! If I knew I was going to be this smart I would've been a brain surgeon, ya' know what I mean?

No Problem C_H we are all guilty of it to one extent or another.

Some folks are just willing to spend more $$$$ or pursue other avenues for spreading their propaganda.

The thing that worries me, is that too many of us here in Texas, believe that things will never change.

I firmly beleive that the "Good Old Boy" network and way of doing things is going to get put out to pasture in the next 5 years or so. We have too many folks living here now, that did not grow up under the "System", and I feel that they will change it at their first opportunity. JMO.

I will have to admit that I'm a die hard and set in my ways. Need to be more flexable. I heard my outfitter say something yesterday I thought I would never hear come out of his mouth! He said with all the high-fence stuff around us we might want to restructure our pricing and lower them somewhat to snag some of the high-fence business.

Seems so strange since we have more bookings this upcoming season than we've ever had. More deer, more quail, more turkey. Maybe he can see some hand writting on the wall that I can't. You know that might be a good question to pose to the forums and give a choice of which would be the more favored hunt. High-fence (more money) as opposed to low-fence (cheaper money) but maybe not the horn quality in the low-fence. What do you think CHC?

What I am seeing, is that a lot of low fence places are charging as much, or even more, in some situations, than the high fence places.

A lot of the high fence places have pricing structures that actually are competetive with or better than the old "Season Lease" system.

Take the following scenario.

Take a low fence place that has an 8 point or larger restriction on bucks taken. This is say a 1000 acre place, the hunter has to provide their own stands/blinds, feeders & feed, establish a campsite, and are limited to 1 buck, a doe, any feral hogs.

The lease is say 90 miles one way from the hunters home and costs $1000.00 a gun.

Now, take a High Fence operation that has a management plan in place whereby only mature 4.5 y.o. or older are allowed to be taken. They have set charges based on the B&C score of the buck. In this instance, let us say that what is considered a "Cull" buck, is a 4.5 y.o. animal that may measure up to 130 B&C points.

A 4 night/3 day hunt, transportation/meals/lodging/game processing/caping for mounting is included, and the price is $1500.00.

Now which of the above is the better value?

To a lot of folks, the hunt on the High Fence place with a better chance of killing a buck, without the bother and expense, of trying to maintain a camp and deer lease, Hoping, to see a shootable buck, is becoming the better bargain.

One of the problems however, is that a lot of folks grew up under the old system of the season or even year reound lease.

The flip side of that, is that now, a season long lease is more often than not, based on a set price per gun. For that price the hunter has to be willing to abide by such rules as antler points or guessed at age restrictions, reduction in the amount of game that can be harvested, One or No does.

Inability to bring family members on to the place or the ability to allow them to kill something other than a doe.

Combine the above with the fact that at 2 to 4 hours or more away from the hunters place of residence, One Way, the hunter will be lucky if he/she can hunt it more than about 4 times during the entire season.

It turns into a toss up. Does trying to hold on to a highly modified form of what was actually out weigh the ease and success of spending the same or possibly even less money on a situation where a person can be fairly confident that they will kill a deer and quite possibly a bigger deer than they ever would on a regular lease. JMO.

C_H, I think in your situation, it would be worth looking into, simply because, the THF and other hunting forums in existance, are not the conscience of the Hunting Public in Texas or the U.S.

Good point CHC

Okay, I can see where there is value in the high-fence operation. I know some high-fence operators and I would like to solicit their views on pricing structure.

Now, what I have a tendancy to disagree with is the price of that hunt you were describing! I know its a hypothetical situation. High-fence operations, IMHO, are not going to offer a hunt that cheap, believe me!! Especially with all the amenities you were throwing in, like the caping and mounting and ect. I know, I know, its only hypothetical so lets get down to reality, okay?

Here is what we charge for a 4 night (first night of arrival) and three day hunt for "deer". You want trophy, okay initial charge is:$1,500.00 for that 130 class buck. Anything above that, the price goes up according to the score of the rack. Thats just for the deer!! Then you have your guide fees per day and lodging and meals on top of that! The guides are $150.00/day and I don't know for sure what the lodging is off hand but it ain't cheap!

I'll throw this in just for fodder. The lodge (owned by the outfitter) is on his own property and is absolutely beautiful. Its two years old and made from logs out of New Mexico. Fully landscaped and complete with quarters fit for a king. Meals are above board. Sorry for all the BS Randall, I just got caught up in the moment!! My2cents

I know personally, of a ranch that offers just such a hunt, except it is for up to a 120 point animal for $1500.00 and it is less than 100 miles from the Metro Plex.

That is "Turn Key" price.

Not all places tack on such things as guide fees. Try checking out the following website: www.CelebrityRanch.com

As can be seen from their info, a 130 point buck would be $2500.00. How many folks are paying $2500.00 a gun, just hoping to see a deer???