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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: BMD] #2060489 01/26/11 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: BMD
Hunted up in panhandle since 97 on ranches with both, never seen a cross, it was just a huge wt/ they have no interest in each other have been on ranches with both with them at feeder together muleys chase muley and wt chase wt and no aggression between the two even with hot does there.



BMD......we have a few mulies that wander onto our place in motley co. Last yr., I watched a nice mule deer buck come into one end of a long wheat field. He walked all the way across this field to a group of whitetails and kinda postured up to a small maybe 2.5 yr old buck ....... and then the fight was on.....that little wt chased the mule deer ( which was at least 1/3 bigger) completely out of the field and ran him for as far as I could watch them. Funniest thing I saw all yr. .....looked like a lap dog chasing a pitbull.

As far as hybrids....never killed one


Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: westtex75] #2060951 01/26/11 07:00 PM
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If you hunt the Matador WMA on a doe hunt they will measure the meta tarsal gland on every doe. Last year when we hunted there the biologist who checked our deer said their is between a 13 to 20 percent mutt factor. Every thing I ever read or seen suggest that whitetails bucks are much more aggressive breeders than muley bucks. If you've ever hunted eastern Colorado they have a real problem with muleys and WT interbreeding. I'm thinking its New Mexico that is starting to get more aggressive in addressing the cross bredding problem. I may be wrong on the state though.


Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: westtex75] #2060967 01/26/11 07:04 PM
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We killed a hybrid in western Crockett County in 2008 (according to the game warden). Body had the characteristics of a muley but the horns were 100% whitetail.


Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: HuntingJunkie] #2061214 01/26/11 08:05 PM
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hunt a place up there and have seen a cross before..but thats not to say there is not one..??


Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: bayourat] #2063007 01/27/11 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: bayourat
whitetails bucks are much more aggressive breeders than muley bucks.


What I have always been told by the old tymers cross breeding does happen


Last edited by jackwabbit2; 01/27/11 04:24 AM.

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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: Palehorse] #2065612 01/28/11 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: Palehorse
This is from a paper from TPWD, "Mule Deer Management in Texas."

"Antler characteristics, tail coloration and ear length are not reliable in recognizing hybrids. Hybrids can be identified by the length of the metatarsal gland that is located on the outside of the rear leg between the hock and the hoof. It typically will measure about 3/4 inch long in whitetails and about 4 inches long in mule deer. The metatarsal gland of hybrids is intermediate in length, measuring about 2 inches long. It has been theorized that occurrences of hybridization are initiated by white-tailed bucks, but interbreeding also can occur between mule deer bucks and white-tailed does. Hybrids appear to have at least a limited degree of fertility (Stubblefield 1985)."

X2 on this one. I hunted in Pecos County in the 1980's and my cousin killed a cross that had this one. I have some old 35mm pics I will see if I can dig up. The buck had deep forks on the back tines to the main beam but had a whitetail rack and body size from what I can remember of him. This ranch had both Mule Deer and whitetail. Mule deer on the western rougher half and mainly whitetail on the eastern half and the cross came in the lap area.



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: stxranchman] #2066005 01/28/11 03:51 AM
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I think in Foard, it's more of an east west delineation of mule deer possibilities than a north south one.

Those folks at Raggedy Creek are awesome, and both the game wardens and biologists we've worked with there are awesome people.


Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: Palehorse] #2066066 01/28/11 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: Palehorse
This is from a paper from TPWD, "Mule Deer Management in Texas."

"Antler characteristics, tail coloration and ear length are not reliable in recognizing hybrids. Hybrids can be identified by the length of the metatarsal gland that is located on the outside of the rear leg between the hock and the hoof. It typically will measure about 3/4 inch long in whitetails and about 4 inches long in mule deer. The metatarsal gland of hybrids is intermediate in length, measuring about 2 inches long. It has been theorized that occurrences of hybridization are initiated by white-tailed bucks, but interbreeding also can occur between mule deer bucks and white-tailed does. Hybrids appear to have at least a limited degree of fertility (Stubblefield 1985)."


The paragraph above that one is pretty interesting as well:

"Where mule deer and white-tailed deer coexist, interbreeding does occur. The long-term effects are unknown, and for most areas, the extent of hybridization is not known. The highest incidence of hybridization in the Trans-Pecos occurs in the eastern part of the region where high populations of mule deer and white-tailed deer coexist. Using a technique called “polyacrylamidel electrophoresis,” Stubblefield et al. (1986) estimated that up to 14 percent of deer may be hybrids where both species occupy the same range, although the average occurrence of hybrids was only about 5%. Many ranches where the 2 species overlapped showed no evidence of hybridization. Using a more accurate technique (DNA sequencing), Cathey et al. (1998) found that 7.7% of 26 deer sampled were hybrids in the West Texas zone of contact (Terrell, Pecos, and Brewster counties). DNA sequencing was also used to determine the extent of hybridization in the Panhandle (Donley County) where the ranges of both species overlap. The results of a small sample of deer (n= 40) indicated a hybridization frequency of 8% (F. Bryant, pers. comm.). Observations by Texas Parks and Wildlife biologists during the hunting season indicate that true hybrids are extremely rare. Out of several hundred deer that are checked each year, it is rare to find a single hybrid."

from TPWD website.

This subject is really interesting to me right now, we have been talking about this in my biology class this week and I meant to bring up the subject in class but did not have time. Most hybrids are either infertile, die before birth, or have some type of defect and die early. I had thought that the hybrids were completely infertile but not according to what TPWD has to say. So this makes me curious if the hybrids are defected in some kind of way or if we could be seeing the beginning of a new species being developed...only the future will tell us.


Last edited by blancobuster; 01/28/11 04:20 AM.
Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: blancobuster] #2066138 01/28/11 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: blancobuster
Originally Posted By: Palehorse
This is from a paper from TPWD, "Mule Deer Management in Texas."

"Antler characteristics, tail coloration and ear length are not reliable in recognizing hybrids. Hybrids can be identified by the length of the metatarsal gland that is located on the outside of the rear leg between the hock and the hoof. It typically will measure about 3/4 inch long in whitetails and about 4 inches long in mule deer. The metatarsal gland of hybrids is intermediate in length, measuring about 2 inches long. It has been theorized that occurrences of hybridization are initiated by white-tailed bucks, but interbreeding also can occur between mule deer bucks and white-tailed does. Hybrids appear to have at least a limited degree of fertility (Stubblefield 1985)."


The paragraph above that one is pretty interesting as well:

"Where mule deer and white-tailed deer coexist, interbreeding does occur. The long-term effects are unknown, and for most areas, the extent of hybridization is not known. The highest incidence of hybridization in the Trans-Pecos occurs in the eastern part of the region where high populations of mule deer and white-tailed deer coexist. Using a technique called “polyacrylamidel electrophoresis,” Stubblefield et al. (1986) estimated that up to 14 percent of deer may be hybrids where both species occupy the same range, although the average occurrence of hybrids was only about 5%. Many ranches where the 2 species overlapped showed no evidence of hybridization. Using a more accurate technique (DNA sequencing), Cathey et al. (1998) found that 7.7% of 26 deer sampled were hybrids in the West Texas zone of contact (Terrell, Pecos, and Brewster counties). DNA sequencing was also used to determine the extent of hybridization in the Panhandle (Donley County) where the ranges of both species overlap. The results of a small sample of deer (n= 40) indicated a hybridization frequency of 8% (F. Bryant, pers. comm.). Observations by Texas Parks and Wildlife biologists during the hunting season indicate that true hybrids are extremely rare. Out of several hundred deer that are checked each year, it is rare to find a single hybrid."

from TPWD website.

This subject is really interesting to me right now, we have been talking about this in my biology class this week and I meant to bring up the subject in class but did not have time. Most hybrids are either infertile, die before birth, or have some type of defect and die early. I had thought that the hybrids were completely infertile but not according to what TPWD has to say. So this makes me curious if the hybrids are defected in some kind of way or if we could be seeing the beginning of a new species being developed...only the future will tell us.


Dont know, that is an interesting read though. It's pretty commen for any hybrid species to be infertile.


Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: CTK3] #2066393 01/28/11 12:20 PM
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The other part of the question is when do they stop being hybrids? Let's say a 50/50 hybrid breeds, the genetics of the deer become watered down, but they still possess both types of genetics for a long time. It's not like you can just breed those genetics out, particularly if they're dominant traits.

I shot this buck in Hall County this year, thinking it was a whitetail that was chasing a doe on December 23. I dropped the head off to a member of my family who only does European mounts, and lots of them, both muleys and whitetails. He calls me about an hour after I get back home and says that he has a surprise for me. He goes on to tell me that he thinks my buck was a hybrid due to the different structure of the nose bones and it's very robust skull base/neck vertebrae, which he says are very characteristic of mule deer. I never checked the metatarsals. The right G2 was broken off (would have loved to see it), and you can easily see odd looking, muley-like left antler. 17" spread with 21" main beams. We thought his nose seemed pretty short too.

Not making a claim, but take it for what it's worth. At the end of the day, it's still just a deer.







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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: kry226] #2066480 01/28/11 01:35 PM
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Not sure on whitetails and mulies but I once hunted a ranch that had a whitetail/elk cross. Whitetail body with an elk rack!

Just kidding!!



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: HuntingJunkie] #2073926 01/31/11 04:14 AM
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Saw a cross at A& K locker plant in Wellington last year that the GW had allegedly confirmed as a hybrid.

BMD/Scott I bet they have some pics and I was told they process more and more hybrids every year.


Last edited by wellingtontx; 01/31/11 04:20 AM.
Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: wellingtontx] #2073978 01/31/11 04:29 AM
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With the aggressiveness of a whitetail buck, lots of landowners that have both species want the whitetail to be hunted to the point of elimination to keep the mule deer strain pure. I hunted on a place in Brewster County and we were told to kill any and all whitetails that we saw that were in season.



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: HuntingJunkie] #2085136 02/03/11 12:40 PM
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My dad and I use to hunt west of Ozona and one guy on our ranch killed a mulie buck during mule deer season. At the camp we were all looking at it. It had a big body, big ears, and a black tail. When you looked at the antlers though they were a beautiful main frame 8 that looked like a whitetail all the way. We think it was a cross. Its antlers looked nothing like a mulie, but the body definely was. only one I have ever seen.


Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: Chuck P] #2087011 02/03/11 10:37 PM
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Here's a buck I shot this year in Floyd County. I have seen mulies and whitetail intermingling there for many years. There's no doubt in my mind they crossbreed. I've seen "whitetails" with black on the end of the tail, deer with huge ears and a whitetail white moustache, and this one is pretty much classic mulie, except for the clean 8 point rack of a whitetail.



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: activescrape] #2087015 02/03/11 10:39 PM
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Here's one more pic.



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: activescrape] #2087098 02/03/11 11:08 PM
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Great deer. Beauty up

Have you ever seen a hybrid try to run in open land?



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: jeh7mmmag] #2087209 02/03/11 11:43 PM
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Not for sure, but I can say this. mulies don't instantly stott every time. I have watched them many times driving down the dirt road while they are in the wheat and they trot along just like a whitetail. When they are running for their lives, they stott.



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: activescrape] #2089301 02/04/11 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: activescrape

Here's one more pic.


Nice buck, but not a hybrid. Just a Muley with a whitetail "type" rack. True hybrids tend to have large Mule Deer heads and bodies, Whitetail rumps, and inferior racks. Will post up a pick when Iget the time to find it.



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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: dkershen] #2089354 02/04/11 05:59 PM
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This is a confirmed hybrid shot near Fritch in '09. Notice the muley body size, head and ears vs the white tail rear end.

The tarsal gland is the key to identifing a true hybrid. In a mule deer it's 3 to 6 inches long. On a white tail it's only an inch or so. Hybrids will always split the difference and come in around 2 inches. This is what most biologists and Game Wardens use to confirm a cross (as well as DNA sampling if someone wants to spend the $$)

Racks are never an indication of cross breeding. Just because a muley has a "whitetail looking rack" means nothing. In most cases DNA tests show these bucks to be 100% mule deer. Shooting one and putting a white tail tag on it could be a very costly mistake.





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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: dkershen] #2092537 02/05/11 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: dkershen
This is a confirmed hybrid shot near Fritch in '09. Notice the muley body size, head and ears vs the white tail rear end.

The tarsal gland is the key to identifing a true hybrid. In a mule deer it's 3 to 6 inches long. On a white tail it's only an inch or so. Hybrids will always split the difference and come in around 2 inches. This is what most biologists and Game Wardens use to confirm a cross (as well as DNA sampling if someone wants to spend the $$)
That is very cool, also very informative.I will keep the metatarsal in mind.
I can say that after observing this herd over the last 30 years, and the appearance of whitetail about 20 years ago, there has been a marked difference. Used to all the mulie racks were typical forking racks. All this single tine off a main beam stuff started later. Like I said, I have seen big ears, white tails and throat patches on the same deer. I have seen black tipped tails with whitetail racks and other combinations. I have watched whitetail does come to the feeder with mule deer does, eat, and leave together. I am all for science, I believe the tarsal gland thing, but the deer are ahead of the biologists, IMO.
Racks are never an indication of cross breeding. Just because a muley has a "whitetail looking rack" means nothing. In most cases DNA tests show these bucks to be 100% mule deer. Shooting one and putting a white tail tag on it could be a very costly mistake.





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Re: Mule Deer and Hybrid Whitetails in Childress and Quanah? [Re: dkershen] #2092539 02/05/11 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: dkershen
This is a confirmed hybrid shot near Fritch in '09. Notice the muley body size, head and ears vs the white tail rear end.

The tarsal gland is the key to identifing a true hybrid. In a mule deer it's 3 to 6 inches long. On a white tail it's only an inch or so. Hybrids will always split the difference and come in around 2 inches. This is what most biologists and Game Wardens use to confirm a cross (as well as DNA sampling if someone wants to spend the $$)
That is very cool, also very informative.I will keep the metatarsal in mind.
I can say that after observing this herd over the last 30 years, and the appearance of whitetail about 20 years ago, there has been a marked difference. Used to all the mulie racks were typical forking racks. All this single tine off a main beam stuff started later. Like I said, I have seen big ears, white tails and throat patches on the same deer. I have seen black tipped tails with whitetail racks and other combinations. I have watched whitetail does come to the feeder with mule deer does, eat, and leave together. I am all for science, I believe the tarsal gland thing, but the deer are ahead of the biologists, IMO.
Racks are never an indication of cross breeding. Just because a muley has a "whitetail looking rack" means nothing. In most cases DNA tests show these bucks to be 100% mule deer. Shooting one and putting a white tail tag on it could be a very costly mistake.





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