Turkey, while I appreciate your efforts to educate me on the state's public position on Antler Restrictions, I will assure you that I have read that web page several times. I even questioned some TPWD officials on certain parts of it, as have others here. In fact, it's been edited and updated often.

Some of us have spent considerable time studying these matters. For some it's just something to argue about. For some it's a passion. But rest easy again, in that it's not something that I just dream up each night to throw out here each morning.

I have recently requested the newest version of this document or its successor. When I receive that I assure you I will dutifully report what it says, be it good or bad for Antler Restrictions.

I will say that I am finding deer pre 1000. When you deal with a biologist they list it at deer per sq mile. If you will dig deeper you will find that the hunter per 1000 is higher than any part of the state. This , land practice , and harvest pactices are what is at fault with the deer issue. The AR is not the issued. What looks like the cure to me is AR on bucks and old style doe permit. But make it where the biologist has to put foot on ground on the land to issue them, this way the permitts are based on good information. There needs to be a very controlled harvest in the piney woods , post oak area. The AR controls the bucks and the doe permit is the only way to control the doe harvest under the current hunter per 1000 issue.

If the numbers you posted are correct and you put them with the number of hunter per 1000 the TPWD list it is a scare situtation. 1 hunter pre 50 acre,s. So with 8 to 12 deer per 1000. That is around a deer per 100 or one deer for every 2 hunters. I am pro AR. That being said the AR that WORKS where I hunt will not work for texas east of I35. There are 7 regions listed for texas so TPWD need to manage each one different. Looks like every one needs to read all that is available INCLUDING the biologist making harvest regulations

There are 8 regions of management habitats in the state. turkeyfanatic, can you explain to me how before ARs these same ranches with the same amount of hunters had more deer than they have now with the same amount of hunters? Just curious since I just can not figure this one out.
The 8 regions:
Cross Timbers
High Plains/Panhandle
Hill Country
Oak Prairie
Pineywoods
Post Oak Savannah
South Texas Plains
Trans Pecos

I don't have the other numbers with me, as I have focused on and worked with these alot, so they are memorized fairly well.

RMU 18 is actually in the postoak savanah region not the piney woods.

THe whole table was posted here in the past, by me and others if you want to search for it.


The problem with their numbers, as noted in their own WMI Report from 04 or 05, is that they gather the numbers on a state or regional scale, then try to implement on a local level.
Same with the hunter density numbers, it may show 80 acres per hunter, but if only half the county they are referring to holds deer then that number increases. On the other hand, some of their hunter density numbers were not collected "species specific", so there may be duck or squirrel or dove guys listed as "hunters" so density is still a debateable topic as well.

There are not 2 hunters per 100 acres where we hunt. Nor are there 14-16 deer per 1000 acres either.

You are eactly right when you say that AR can work one place and not another...

There were 8 old eco-regions, with upper 20 or 30 ish number of Resource Management Units spread over those Eco Regions. This is something they are wanting to change as well.

They also purposely don't count deer in some areas, based on where the deer are located. For example there are countable numbers of deer in west central Fannin County, but that area is not assigned to any particular RMU.

Using artificial boundaries such as "north of highway 70" may not be the best thing for the animals, as they don't read those maps. Too often we have used man-made geo-boundaries to manage game as well. Case in point, there are three distinctly different terrain/soil composition areas of fannin county, and they offer/support different levels (if any) of whitetail deer and other game.

There is a lot to it other than "I want bigger horns". Heck, we all may want to be bigger. But in some cases the end doesn't justify the means. I wish TPWD had the resources to look globally, and manage locally.

To add here too if I may, these regions and their names and boundaries have varied over the course of the data collection as well. Some places that were in one region for part of the process "moved" to another later in the process. Usually for administrative reasons not scientific reasons. I believe this was pointed out in the WMI report as well (if not there it was from someone else not my original thought!)

From page 4...^^^

Turkey, there has been a lot of this (beat dead horse thingy) for sure. But there is also a lot of research, correspondence and questioning done on ARs with TPWD.

While your opinion are welcomed it might help to search ARs here on the old THF before calling out folks that get their FACTS straight from TPWD.

Might do a search on this site. You might gain some insite to what RMUs, WMIs, and might even learn what contiguous means. Just don't fall for all of the TPWD propaganda.

Oh and TPWD wrote the original web site for me and 6 of my co-anti-ARs friends back in 2005.

I would love to hear how your county should be set up! Do you think it should be old school if it has anything sticking out of its head and it is brown it is down? Because most of the guys that are agaist it were killing 1 1/2 spikes 6 and sometimes it had 8 points. I know a guy that hunted in east tx and he has a barn full of yearling racks. WHAT IS YOUR FIX ? To a problem that AR uncovered !

GOOD LORD!!! This thread is still going?

Curly, you are a trouble maker. Getting all this stirred up again.

I thought I had solved this issue about 15 pages ago....

What the heck is wrong with a barn full of small racks? Never killed a huge buck and will admit i have killed a bunch of small bucks but im not into fueling my ego to kill a monster buck. Turkeyfantic you and your speeches right out of the TPW handbook amaze me! you already stated you dont hunt in the countys that are having the problems so your opinion means squat when we are the ones trying to get it back the way it was and trust me it was MUCH better than it is now. I took a deer every year for close to 20yrs and will admit most were young deer but always saw plenty of deer at every sitting and occasionaly a good buck, now after 5yrs of new rules and bag limits ive taken no bucks and only 1 doe and was dang glad to get it! Unlike you and the rest of the pro ar guys i hunt for deer MEAT! sure i can buy beef and other meat but untill the make beef that tastes like venison im hunting deer. Way to many hunters hunt for the almighty antler wich thats ok with me, to each his own but im sick of people putting us down because i like to eat a young deer. And yes if its brown its down means i get to feed my family with something thats healthy and great eating and a pleasure to hunt then so be it! We had tons of deer before ar and now few after ar well personally its a no brainer! ARsucks!

Those pro-AR guys can type 200 paragraph posts all they want...until something improves in my area, I'm still gonna hate ARs.

200 paragraphs????? Was that a crack aimed at me bro? LOL!

There may be places AR's are the greatest thing on earth. As I have said often I think they will help in ARCHER and I'd LOVE to have them in FOARD!

But in the 4-5 counties around home, they suck.

I ask what do think TPWD needs to do as for as regulation. There are no free lunches. You pay now or later. What is the hunting like next to the national forest land??? Is there anyone that has land next to it ??

Nope not you...maybe to the one who's a fan of turkeys but apparently is an expert on deer.

Turkeyfanatic, one thing you need to ask yourself is why you hunt. Do you hunt for horn or meat? There is nothing wrong with either, but understanding the other side is important.


Deer numbers are quoted per 1000 acres in the TPWD. Most other states and most private biologist still use sq. mile. You may be pro restriction, but Sig is anti and he has done his homework and probably is known by name in Austin. I do not doubt his word one bit.

I control what is killed on my land and deer numbers are down. I am not young or foolish. I know what I speak of and what I have witnessed on my land over the last 30 years or so. We need to take the bag limit down. I have heard there are going to be some changes made. The AR's have not worked in NE TX.

19 pages

Awe come one, surly you got more to say than .

Well Ok if you put it that way..

Yeah and he is an expert on blanket managing land via the internet that he has never set foot onkinda like the TPW and their blanket mangement AR plan.

and

Did you get so excited that your forgot to type your reply in? or you just trying to get to that 10,000 mark in a hurry and got to excited?

Nah...think I'll just milk it till 10,000.

You gonna have to keep this thread open and not get it locked then so you can make that 10,000th post on an AR then!

As long as opposing folks don't get belligerent I will. If it does get locked down, I'll just start a new one.