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Feb 12th, 2024
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 Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#203396
08/23/07 06:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
gramps
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gramps
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768 |
Mike, Here you go. Let me double check the figures on 1000yrds. I had to calc 1000 by hand because program quit at 800 yards. We both guessed a whole lot lower FPE & FPS than the calc came out but it is a VLD bullet. 24 Ft drop @ 1000yds!!!!  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Name: .284 Cal, Berger VLD, 180 grn Ballistic Coeff: 0.698 Bullet Weight: 180 Velocity: 2900 Target Distance: 1000 Scope Height: 1.500 Temperature: 50 Altitude: 1000 Ballistic Data ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect 0 yds -1.50 in 2900 fps 3361 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in 25 yds 5.75 in 2867 fps 3284 fpe 0.026 sec 0.13 in -0.57 in 0.02 in 50 yds 12.74 in 2834 fps 3209 fpe 0.052 sec 0.52 in -0.47 in 0.11 in 75 yds 19.45 in 2801 fps 3135 fpe 0.079 sec 1.19 in -0.30 in 0.26 in 100 yds 25.88 in 2768 fps 3063 fpe 0.106 sec 2.14 in -0.05 in 0.46 in 125 yds 32.03 in 2736 fps 2992 fpe 0.133 sec 3.37 in 0.26 in 0.72 in 150 yds 37.89 in 2704 fps 2922 fpe 0.161 sec 4.89 in 0.66 in 1.04 in 175 yds 43.45 in 2672 fps 2854 fpe 0.189 sec 6.71 in 1.14 in 1.41 in 200 yds 48.71 in 2641 fps 2787 fpe 0.217 sec 8.84 in 1.70 in 1.84 in 225 yds 53.65 in 2609 fps 2721 fpe 0.246 sec 11.27 in 2.34 in 2.32 in 250 yds 58.28 in 2578 fps 2656 fpe 0.275 sec 14.02 in 3.07 in 2.85 in 275 yds 62.60 in 2547 fps 2593 fpe 0.304 sec 17.09 in 3.89 in 3.43 in 300 yds 66.59 in 2516 fps 2530 fpe 0.333 sec 20.48 in 4.80 in 4.06 in 325 yds 70.19 in 2486 fps 2470 fpe 0.364 sec 24.26 in 5.83 in 4.83 in 350 yds 73.51 in 2455 fps 2409 fpe 0.394 sec 28.32 in 6.93 in 5.56 in 375 yds 76.46 in 2425 fps 2351 fpe 0.424 sec 32.75 in 8.14 in 6.38 in 400 yds 79.03 in 2395 fps 2293 fpe 0.455 sec 37.56 in 9.47 in 7.28 in 425 yds 81.21 in 2366 fps 2236 fpe 0.487 sec 42.76 in 10.91 in 8.27 in 450 yds 82.98 in 2336 fps 2181 fpe 0.519 sec 48.37 in 12.47 in 9.35 in 475 yds 84.35 in 2307 fps 2127 fpe 0.551 sec 54.38 in 14.16 in 10.50 in 500 yds 85.30 in 2278 fps 2074 fpe 0.584 sec 60.81 in 15.97 in 11.73 in 525 yds 85.82 in 2249 fps 2021 fpe 0.617 sec 67.67 in 17.91 in 13.04 in 550 yds 85.91 in 2220 fps 1970 fpe 0.651 sec 74.96 in 19.99 in 14.43 in 575 yds 85.55 in 2192 fps 1920 fpe 0.685 sec 82.70 in 22.21 in 15.89 in 600 yds 84.75 in 2164 fps 1871 fpe 0.720 sec 90.88 in 24.57 in 17.42 in 625 yds 83.50 in 2136 fps 1823 fpe 0.755 sec 99.51 in 27.08 in 19.02 in 650 yds 81.79 in 2108 fps 1775 fpe 0.790 sec 108.61 in 29.73 in 20.69 in 675 yds 79.61 in 2080 fps 1729 fpe 0.826 sec 118.16 in 32.54 in 22.43 in 700 yds 76.96 in 2053 fps 1684 fpe 0.862 sec 128.20 in 35.50 in 24.24 in 725 yds 73.83 in 2025 fps 1639 fpe 0.898 sec 138.70 in 38.62 in 26.11 in 750 yds 69.75 in 1999 fps 1597 fpe 0.937 sec 150.17 in 42.04 in 28.31 in 775 yds 65.82 in 1971 fps 1553 fpe 0.973 sec 161.48 in 45.45 in 30.22 in 800 yds 61.24 in 1945 fps 1511 fpe 1.011 sec 173.44 in 49.07 in 32.27 in 1000YDS 00.00 in 1741fps 1211fpe 1.338sec 293.72in 86.40in 53.40in
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: huntsetter1]
#203397
08/23/07 07:15 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,056
HWY_MAN
OP
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Quote:
That is an amazing group.
It sure is. And when you figure he had to go through 3 different actions, 13 barrels, 2 different calibers and he doesnt even mention scopes, I'm guessing he's got close to 20,000 dollars invested in it.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek071.html
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: jeh7mmmag]
#203398
08/23/07 07:18 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,056
HWY_MAN
OP
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Thanks James 
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: jeh7mmmag]
#203399
08/23/07 07:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
Read the post again. You did not get the meaning! Your POA should always be the bullseye. Your POI depends on many factors.
I got the meaning. I think you're missing mine.
Quote:
The object is to determine the center of the grouping at these known conditions.
More accurately, the object (of "sighting in", which is what you explicitely referred to) is to adjust your aiming device - if necessary - such that your POA and POI (for the group, of course) coincide. Determining grouping is a part of that equation, but not the final goal.
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Then Know your external ballistic and Maximum Point Blank Range. Then be able to adjust to different conditions and be able to place the center the group (or shot) where you need it at these new conditions. (Doping a shot)
Right. So what do you think the photo represents? The result of sighting in the rifle, or of doping a shot with a rifle that had already been sighted in at a different range? It certainly isn't a good sighting in final result, nor is it a good shot doping result...in spite of being an impressive grouping.
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If your POI is the bulleyes at 100 yards how do you figure your POA for vitals at say 350 yards. It takes a lot of guessing hold over / under when you zero at 100 yards.
Uh, yeah...I know that (I think everyone knows that.) The point (which you seem to have forgotten) is the what the photo in question tells us about taking "looooooong" range shots at game animals. Since we can assume that the gent in the photo was aiming for the bullseye (or, more accurately...aiming for the spot that he thought would put his POI in the bullseye) we know that, in spite of his great grouping (for that range), had he taken a shot at a game animal he would have missed the vitals completely.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203400
08/23/07 08:16 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,056
HWY_MAN
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Quote:
Uh, yeah...I know that (I think everyone knows that.) The point (which you seem to have forgotten) is the what the photo in question tells us about taking "looooooong" range shots at game animals. Since we can assume that the gent in the photo was aiming for the bullseye (or, more accurately...aiming for the spot that he thought would put his POI in the bullseye) we know that, in spite of his great grouping (for that range), had he taken a shot at a game animal he would have missed the vitals completely.
I can assure you James has been aware of that from the start.
Quote:
Since we can assume that the gent in the photo was aiming for the bullseye
On his first shot he did, he may not have been on the other 4. would you agree with that?
Last edited by HWY_MAN; 08/23/07 08:19 PM.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#203401
08/23/07 08:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
I can assure you James has been aware of that from the start.
If so, his arguments make no sense, since...I repeat...the result of shooting at a game animal is the subject. By the way, you seem to have glossed over the main part of that part of the discussion, which relates to the purpose of sighting in.
Quote:
On his first shot he did, he may not have been on the other 4. would you agree with that?
Not if we're going to accept the "great grouping" accolades. Are you suggesting that all 5 shots fell into the same tight group even though his initial point of aim was 10" (give or take) from where he was aiming with the other 4? Or are you saying that he adjusted the scope after the first shot, and then subsequently aimed for the initial POI for the rest? That wouldn't make much sense either.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#203402
08/23/07 08:35 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,262
RICK O'SHAY
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,262 |
FIRST OFF IKNOW NOTHING ABOUT 1000YD SHOOTING I ASSUME SINCE IT SAY ON THE TARGET "NEW RECORD" THAT IS SOME DARN GOOD SHOOTING.
WE ONCE SET ANTIFREEZE BOTTLES ON THE TANK DAM AT ABOUT 500 YDS.. 3 OF US WASTED A BOX OF AMMO EACH BEFORE WE WENT AND PICKED UP THE UN-DAMMAGED BOTTLES...
DISCLAIMER
ATTENTION: Your decision should NEVER be based SOLELY upon my advice, recomendation, or opinion.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203403
08/23/07 08:37 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,056
HWY_MAN
OP
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Quote:
Not if we're going to accept the "great grouping" accolades. Are you suggesting that all 5 shots fell into the same tight group even though his initial point of aim was 10" (give or take) from where he was aiming with the other 4? Or are you saying that he adjusted the scope after the first shot, and then subsequently aimed for the initial POI for the rest? That wouldn't make much sense either.
OK James, i rest my case. He clearly has no concept of bench-rest shooting, and no understanding of wind doping.
I tried but it looks like I'm done here.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: RICK O'SHAY]
#203404
08/23/07 08:45 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,056
HWY_MAN
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Quote:
FIRST OFF IKNOW NOTHING ABOUT 1000YD SHOOTING
Me either, never done it. I shot 100 and 200 yard events.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#203405
08/23/07 08:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
OK James, i rest my case.
In order to rest a case you must first present one. You have not done so. Thus far all you've offered is dismissive, snide remarks and a rhetorical question. You also have ignored the questions (aimed at clarification) put to you. It would appear that you're not even trying to present a "case", and are instead engaged in nothing but arrogant hand-waving.
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He clearly has no concept of bench-rest shooting, and no understanding of wind doping.
Neither are clear, since I've said nothing to indicate either thing.
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I tried but it looks like I'm done here.
You tried...what, exactly?
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203406
08/24/07 12:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,309
PrimitiveHunter
THF Celebrity
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Quote:
Since we can assume that the gent in the photo was aiming for the bullseye
Just when I thought I had washed my hands of this post...
Be careful what you assume. When I'm sighting in or grouping my rifles, I shoot one time at the target and then begin shooting at that hole. My target doesn't even have a bullseye on it. It's either a blank board (painted white) or a blank sheet of paper. If my scope is on, my holes are close. If not, the holes walk across the target till they are. Yes, I know this guys target has a bullseye and he may have been aiming at it but if it were me shooting it, I would not have been aiming at it anyway. You will never know unless you ask him.
And lastly, this photo has nothing to do with hunting. I don't know why some keep bringing it back to that point. A guy cruising the bay in a cigar boat has nothing to do with sailing a 3 masted schooner. They're both boats and they both float on the water but that's where the similarities and comparisons end.
This was a target shoot. Why do people keep talking about it as though he were hunting? You can debate POI and POA all day but nothing in this photo has anything to do with hunting.
Practice doesn’t make perfect.
Practice makes permanent.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#203407
08/24/07 01:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
Just when I thought I had washed my hands of this post...
"Thread". Washed your hand of the thread. Individual messages are "posts".
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Be careful what you assume. When I'm sighting in or grouping my rifles...
How interesting that you refer to "sighting in" OR "grouping", finally acknowledging that they're different things. Cool.
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I shoot one time at the target and then begin shooting at that hole. My target doesn't even have a bullseye on it. It's either a blank board (painted white) or a blank sheet of paper. If my scope is on, my holes are close. If not, the holes walk across the target till they are. Yes, I know this guys target has a bullseye and he may have been aiming at it but if it were me shooting it, I would not have been aiming at it anyway. You will never know unless you ask him.
Not for certain, no. But often it's quite reasonable to make an assumption like that. He's using a target with a bullseye, so there's really no reason to not use it. Most people use targets with a bullseye for a reason, whether you do or not.
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And lastly, this photo has nothing to do with hunting. I don't know why some keep bringing it back to that point.
Probably because this is a hunting forum, the topic is shooting at game animals from long distances and the person who posted the picture was making a point on that topic.
Quote:
This was a target shoot. Why do people keep talking about it as though he were hunting? You can debate POI and POA all day but nothing in this photo has anything to do with hunting.
See above. Both have to do with accuracy in shooting. I mean, really...this isn't that difficult to understand.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203408
08/24/07 04:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,309
PrimitiveHunter
THF Celebrity
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Quote:
How interesting that you refer to "sighting in" OR "grouping", finally acknowledging that they're different things. Cool.
The "Cool" thing is that you've finally recognized what I've been trying to convey since the beginning of this post. Shooting for groups has nothing to do with hitting a bullseye. I knew you'd finally get it sooner or later.
On the rare occasion that I was shooting a target that actually had a bullseye, when I was working on grouping, I wanted the holes out in the white where I could see them. Once I was happy with the group, I'd adjust down so as to put 2 in a row in a specific point based on aiming at the bullseye but not necessarily in the bullseye (unless it's my pig rifle. It's dead center bull at 50 yards). Now, I'm aiming at a small black dot that is the first bullet hole cause all my grouping work is basically done. My weapon/load combinations are right where I want them so I don't fiddle with ammo or settings hence there's really no purpose for me to "group" any more.
All in all, this has been a very informative and entertaining post. Stick with it long enough and you'll develop the knowledge!
Practice doesn’t make perfect.
Practice makes permanent.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#203409
08/24/07 05:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
Quote:
How interesting that you refer to "sighting in" OR "grouping", finally acknowledging that they're different things. Cool.
The "Cool" thing is that you've finally recognized what I've been trying to convey since the beginning of this post. Shooting for groups has nothing to do with hitting a bullseye. I knew you'd finally get it sooner or later.
In your rush to convince yourself and others that you "got" me on this you've succeeded only in stepping on your own pecker. Here's the original quote (from jeh7mmmag) that started it all:
"Most people dont shot to hit the bullseye when sighting in and working loads developement. Its all about grouping."
Note the phrase "when sighting in", as well as the subsequent reference to "grouping", as though the latter were the purpose of the former. It's not I who was conflating the two. So perhaps you ought to direct a snide comment or two to jeh7mmmag.
In other words, you're confused about who is saying what.
Have YOU finally gotten what the picture has to do about hunting?
Quote:
All in all, this has been a very informative and entertaining post. Stick with it long enough and you'll develop the knowledge!
No doubt. I'd say the same thing to you regarding following the posts in a thread so that you know who is saying what.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203410
08/24/07 05:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,309
PrimitiveHunter
THF Celebrity
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As a courtesy, I thought I'd tell you that you're on my "ignoring" list now so if you're talking about me, by all means carry on. If you're talking to me, I can't see it.
Practice doesn’t make perfect.
Practice makes permanent.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#203411
08/24/07 06:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,868
atascosa_red
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,868 |
Can't we all just get along?
IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!! REVOLT!! REVOLT!! REVOLTING!! REVOLTING!!
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203412
08/24/07 06:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100
dgilbert
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 19,100 |
Critter, need to take it easy there. Thanks.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#203413
08/24/07 06:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
As a courtesy, I thought I'd tell you that you're on my "ignoring" list now so if you're talking about me, by all means carry on. If you're talking to me, I can't see it.
Another child who sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts the "ABC"s when confronted with something he doesn't want to hear...like the facts.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: dgilbert]
#203414
08/24/07 06:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
Critter, need to take it easy there. Thanks.
Take what easy? Is the truth on the forbidden list here?
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203415
08/24/07 06:18 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100
dgilbert
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 19,100 |
Just giving you a friendly warning, the rest is up to you. Thanks.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: dgilbert]
#203416
08/24/07 06:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
Just giving you a friendly warning, the rest is up to you. Thanks.
The warning would be a lot more useful if you'd explain what it is that you're warning me about. I see a lot of hostility, dishonesty, etc. by many people here, but not a peep from the moderators about any of that. But when I point out to someone that their condescending comments aren't even accurate, I seem to be violating some local standard. Care to enlighten me as to exactly what they are? And where I can find some consistent application of them?
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: JCB]
#203418
08/24/07 06:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
CritterGitter
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151 |
Quote:
I bet its just driving him nuts to know we aint reading a darn thing he has to say. 
No, but I am slightly amused by this childish obsession you have with me.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: JCB]
#203419
08/24/07 06:49 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,309
PrimitiveHunter
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 10,309 |
Practice doesn’t make perfect.
Practice makes permanent.
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Re: About this long shot thing!
[Re: CritterGitter]
#203420
08/24/07 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,646
garrett
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Posts: 10,646 |
CRITTER, what time is it?
Attention rickym, this is not a troll post, just a good hearted fun type of post
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