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Protein Feeder Question? #202505 08/20/07 03:04 AM
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huntsome Offline OP
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What is a fair price to pay for protein? What kind do you recommend? Have any of you noticed any nutritional results of the deer since you've implemented protein to your feeders?


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: huntsome] #202506 08/20/07 11:44 AM
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At Bode's feed in Harper I am pay about $7.50 a bag for 20%

-john



Time to catch a hog.......... A friend of Ken's
Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: TX_Hoghunter] #202507 08/20/07 02:35 PM
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Usually takes a while to see results..First year you will see some weight gain and usually after that the antler begin to increase a little..You have to comitt to it and stick to it..It helps the best during drought years and hard winters..like we have those here..exxpect to pay 6.5 to 8 a bag depending on the percentage of protein..


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: easton1025] #202508 08/20/07 09:20 PM
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I have been using Purina Antler Max for the past 2 years and it seems to be making our deer bigger and healthier already. This past year my son shot a good 9 point that weighed 175 on the hoof and 150 field dressed. It is best to feed the protein year round though as well. We are in NE Stephens county.


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: Lone Ranger] #202509 08/21/07 01:08 AM
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huntsome Offline OP
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Thanks for your comments. Can you put it in a regular corn feeder or do you need a different setup for protein?


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: huntsome] #202510 08/21/07 01:31 AM
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deerfeeder Offline
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Huntsome, get a regular protein feeder. The deal with protein is it should be fed free choice, as much as they want when they want. A spin feeder, even set for a 30 second throw will barely feed one deer. Get a feeder that doesn't have pop rivets or sheet metal screws going through the sides. The reason for that is moisture, even dew, is a protein pellet's worst enemy. That is another reason why spin feeders aren't too good for protein. If it rains or is real wet what is on the plate can cake. This makes it hard for the motor to throw it. You will eventually burn out your motor.

Another thing to watch for if you get a welded feeder is that they sweat, condensation is moisture, now you are back to protein's worst enemy.

I feed deer leases and sell Boss Buck feeders. In my opinion Boss Buck feeders are the most water resistant feeders on the market. Another decent feeder (not as good as Boss Buck but close) would be one made by Big Horn metals, they have a shop in Uvalde. Lyssy & Eckels, in Poth and Hondo, also sell a fiberglass version of a protein feeder. Their weakness is the feed tubes are made out of pvc which does not hold up well to uv rays.

Feed anywhere from 17 to 20%, three eights inch pellets. Don't let a slick salesman talk you into more than 20% because the deer cannot use that much. It gets pooped out. If you have penned deer and that is all they get then it's a different story.

Lyssy and Eckels protein doesn't have cotton seed products in it. Pretty good stuff. I use mostly Mumme's generic 20% pellets. Made in Gonzales at the same plant Antler Max is made. Gene Bode, mentionede above, in Harper sells pretty good protein.

Stay away from protein pellets mixed with corn. What will happen is the coons will scoop all the pellets on the ground to get the corn, eat the corn, and poop on your protein.

Oh,cotton seed products/byproducts have gossypol in them which has an adverse effect on antlers and sperm production. Good luck


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: deerfeeder] #202511 08/21/07 01:40 AM
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huntsome Offline OP
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That helps a lot! Thanks for the advice.


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: huntsome] #202512 08/21/07 02:25 AM
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I agree with deerfeeder and I am also a dealer for boss buck. But I have a big horn metals feeder and don't really care for it. It does get some feed caked up in the bottom of the tubes and it is extremely hard to manuever. It gets the job done but it's about the same price as the Boss Buck and they are so much easier to move around and I like having the feed ports closer so you can put a camera closer and still catch all the deer.


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: deerfeeder] #202513 08/21/07 06:47 PM
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Quote:



Oh,cotton seed products/byproducts have gossypol in them which has an adverse effect on antlers and sperm production. Good luck




I say BS. You show me one scientific study where that has bee proven on Whitetail Deer, Bulls yes, Deer NO! We have been feeding Whole Cotton Seed for over 10 years all year long, and this has never, ever happened.


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: Team_Binnion] #202514 08/21/07 10:23 PM
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deerfeeder Offline
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Whatever, since I feed other people's deer I don't take chances. I've seen deer on mountains of whole cotton seed but they only have access to it for about three months out of the year. You can do what you want with your deer but even a 10% reduction in antler size, which you really have no way of knowing about, will take a 140 buck down into the 120's. That's your choice, if you have a study that shows that there is no impact on deer I'd really like to read it.


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: deerfeeder] #202515 08/21/07 10:33 PM
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More on cottonseed:

ARTICLE TAKEN FROM TEXAS A & M UNIVERSITY - OVERTON WEB SITE:

December 9, 2002


Whole Cottonseed Lowers Fallow Buck Deer
Testosterone Levels, Shortens Antlers
Writer: Robert Burns (903) 834-6191, rd-burns@tamu.edu
Source: Dr. Ron Randel (903) 834-6191, r-randel@tamu.edu TEXAS -- Feeding whole cottonseed to both free-ranging and ranched deer is a common practice this time of year. But a recent study done by the Texas Agricultural Experiment Station finds a toxic element in whole cottonseed adversely retards antler growth, lessens body condition scores and lowers testosterone levels in male deer.

The study was done with fallow deer, a species native to the Mediterranean region of Europe and Asia Minor and grown on deer farms throughout Texas, and not with white-tailed deer, the wild species native to Texas.


"However, fallow deer are similar to white-tails in body size, antler cycles and reproductive cycles. As a result, there are good reasons to believe that gossypol could also affect white-tailed deer," said Dr. Ron Randel, Texas Agricultural Experiment Station.
Whole cottonseed contains gossypol, a toxic element that naturally occurs in cotton plants. Non- ruminants, humans for example, are particularly sensitive to gossypol. The symptoms of gossypol toxicity include labored breathing, decreased growth rates and loss of appetite.
The effects of gossypol on ruminants such as white-tailed deer and related species are not so evident, but seem focused on the animal's reproductive physiology. It has long been known, for example, that gossypol toxicity will damage a bull's sperm. Early studies have also shown that the damage comes during the formation of spermatozoa, leading to damage to the tail and membrane covering.
Armed with these facts, Dr. Randel, an internationally renowned expert on beef cattle physiology, initiated a study in 2000 to measure the effects, if any, on male fallow deer. In the study, he used deer from the deer farm facilities located at the Texas A&M University Agricultural Research and Extension Center at Overton, Texas. Twelve two-year-old bucks and twelve yearling bucks were randomly split into two groups. Six bucks of each age group were fed whole cottonseed (WCS) and six were fed a cracked corn and soybean supplement calculated to be equal in nutritional value to the cottonseed rations. Deer in all groups were provided all they would eat. They were also maintained on bermudagrass pastures with free access to salt, mineral supplements and water.
At 28-day intervals, from March through October, Randel and his research team collected blood samples, body-condition scores, right and left antler measurements, scrotum circumference and testicular measurements on the deer. When antler growth ended, and the bucks began to rub the velvet off their antlers, the team collected sperm from the deer on 14-day intervals.
Antler weight and length were both reduced in the WCS fed animals compared to the control group, those eating corn/soybean rations without WCS. Average antler length was 22 centimeters (about 8 « inches) in the WCS animals compared to 36 centimeters (about 14 inches) in the controls. At 161 grams (about 6 ounces) average antler weight in the WCS animals was approximately half that of the control at 336 grams (about 12 ounces).
A more important measurement, in terms of the health of a deer herd, was the level of testosterone, the male hormone. The blood testosterone levels of the WSC animals averaged approximately half that of the corn/soybean fed control group.
"These data indicate that either cervids (deer) are being affected negatively by the gossypol intake, or they are not capable of utilizing the increased fat in the diet provided by whole cottonseed," Randel said.
Cottonseed meal as well as whole cottonseed is used in the rations of other ruminants, including beef and dairy cattle and sheep. Because beef and dairy cattle have larger rumens, they utilize fat in the diet better than deer species, and are more likely to reap positive effects from a cottonseed diet with its higher fat content, Randel noted.
To Randel, the implications of feeding whole cottonseed are clear. He is suggesting wildlife managers and deer ranchers exercise caution when using whole cottonseed as a supplement for deer.
Randel also noted that the research project has met with some naysayers. Cottonseed is a cheap feed with lots of nutritive value. Also, it is not consumed by non-target species such as the wild boar, making it ideal for large supplemental feeding projects. These benefits outweigh the negative side effects of feeding whole cottonseed they claim.
Deer farming, the raising of deer in confinement on improved pastures, is a relatively new agricultural enterprise in the United States. Until recently, exotic deer farms were not considered agricultural operations by laws in Texas and other states. Exotic deer were considered game not livestock. During the last few years, changes in Texas and other states' laws have made exotic deer farms subject to the same laws, such as herd health laws, that govern other livestock species. The change in classification also means exotic deer farms come under agricultural-use laws and may benefit from the same tax breaks.
Today, Texas law still considers the white-tailed deer as a game species, whether it is free- ranging or raised in confinement, and the sale of its meat is prohibited.
Randel has been conducting deer farming research since 1991. Early research showed non-native deer breeds such as Axis and Fallow can adapt to existing Texas pastures. In the intervening years, research has focused on aspects of reproductive management, pasture systems, business planning and product marketing for relatively intensive operations where the main goals include venison and/or velvet antler production, as well as seed stock production. The Overton Center deer farming research facilities are currently working with two species fallow and red deer.
More detailed information on deer farming and the research done at the Overton Center can be found on the Internet at http://overton.tamu.edu/deerfarming .


Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: deerfeeder] #202516 08/21/07 10:49 PM
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I beleive Deerfeeder is quoting a study done in 2003 by Texas A&M's Dr. Ron Randel in which a ration high in cottonseed meal was fed to exotic red deer and fallow deer. He noted significant reductions in antler and sperm quality. The study DID NOT include whitetail deer, but we can infer that our native deer MIGHT be similarly affected.
It must be noted that the study deer consumed greater than 1.7% of their body weight daily in whole cottonseed (quite a lot). In his paper, Randel recommends that the cottonseed content in any commercial ration be kept to 10% of the total, or less.

Take home message: I am not aware of any marketed ration in which cottonseed exceeds 10%, so we should be OK feeding the name brands. Just be sure that if you are feeding a custom blend formulated by a mill in "cotton country", cottonseed meal probably shouldn't be the SOLE protein source in the ration.

Dave



"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple.....and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: Protein Feeder Question? [Re: dawaba] #202517 08/21/07 10:59 PM
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dawaba, that's the study, but a whitetail is a whole lot closer to a fallow or axis than to a bull. Yes, they are all ruminants but there is a huge difference (no pun intended) between a bull and a whitetail. A couple of years ago the AG station in Sonora was feeding whole cotton seed to their deer and they were supposed to publish a report. But, they either haven't published it yet or I haven't been able to find it. Another small point is that from the little I have been able to gather there aren't too many deer farmers that will feed whole cottonseed year 'round. In a drought year or if you are severly strapped financially maybe for a little while, but on a wholesale level I wouldn't feed it to my deer. JMO


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