I am only going with what I have seen in the wild, and what I looked at, at the Kerr WMA.

The best I remember from the stuff at the Kerr, and as far as I know, the racks are still hanging up down there, was that shed racks form bucks that had unbranched antlers at 1.5 years old, even with high levels of protein, might eventually grow into a 3 to five pointer.

At the same time, bucks that were branch antlered at 1.5, usually had the capability to grow into quality deer, providing the protein levels of the food they had access to, were enough to meet all other bodily requirements.

Antler growth requires protein levels in excess of what is required for normal body functions and growth. From what I remember at the work shop, under normal conditions, the protein level of most browse is at or below 8%.

In drought conditions, protein levels drop to 5% or less.

Any time there is a drop in protein levels of the food be consumed. antler growth, along with fawn production and growth is going to drop.

This year, due to the abundant rainfall over most of Texas, there should be excellent antler growth, and deer body weights should be up. JMO.

Just from what I've experienced over the years I would say that a main frame 8 point at say 4 1/2 will probably still be a basic 8 point frame, with maybe several kickers the following years, but still will have the basic eight shape.

I've seen 2 1/2 years old deer with long main beams that developed into basic ten point racks with kickers that followed years after, but had the basic frame shape of the ten point rack.

I would have to say that the basic genetic makeup of your herd is going to be a reflection of which do you want?

Basic frame eight's or basic frame tens. Points depend on age and other factors such as nutrition, but the basic frame is what is passed on I truly believe.

Also with the spikes it's hard to tell what they will be because it depends on if it was an early fawn or late fawn, since you have what is called a trickle rut.

Not all deer breed at the same time. You could have some breeding early in the season and then on the next cycle the later does come into estrus so those fawns may end up being born in the late spring.

I've seen two different buck fawns during the October bow season where one of the fawn still had spots and two inch spikes, and the other already had it's winter coat, and I thought it was the doe at first, until I noticed the horns, so someone is going to tell me that the little spike is inferior?

I hunted on a ranch where it seemed the majority of the deer had racks with very small or no brow tines at all, and not all deer on the ranch were like that, but a large number had the characteristic, and over the years passed this dominent trait on to the herd.

That was before the word "cull" made its way into our vocabulary.

So for what it's worth, that's just what I've observed over the years, and by no means am I saying I'm 100% correct.

Anyone see the guy in TTHA that took the 180+ B&C 8 point. Largest ever in Texas.

That is my heartattack buck. thanks

TPWD stance on spikes is not "once a spike always a spike" there stance is that the MAJORITY or BIGGEST PERCENTAGE of spike bucks will never reach the antler size at maturity that their branched antlered brothers and sisters do. NOW, there are exceptions to every rule...but in good range conditions with supplemental feeding there is no place for spikes or mature 8 points if you are managing for trophy quality animals...meaning big main frames with large scores. If you want the typical 110-115" hill country 8pt then theres no need to take cull or management bucks to the extent of the highly managed ranches.

I personally do not like Kroll and have been around him privately...everything he does is to pad his wallet and will usually stray away from mainstream management ideas that people from the state recommend for free. He would not have as big of clientale if he agreed with all state practices...

It does not work that way, and besides that, not all deer are going to grow big racks even though they may have the genetics, and naccess to all of the feed in the world.

Any animal, doesn't matter the species can pork up on low quality feed, if they have access to plenty of it.

To grow antlers or produce fawns, a whitetail needs a certain level of protein. From all the stuff I have read and been told over the years, even in the best of conditions, that all of the browse combined in any given area of the state, has a protein level of 8% or less.

In stressed conditions it is less that that. Deer corn has only 6% to 8% protein and usually only allows deer to put on a little extra fat and helps their bodies generate a little extra heat.

Look at all the deer protein pellets on the market. Most of those are in the range of 16% protein or higher.

It takes that extra protein, that is in excess of what the daily bodily functions of the animal require to grow those antlers.

that 8 point is AWESOME!!!!!! if i saw that deer, he would be down in a heartbeat and i would be one happy camper. what ranch did he get that on????

tt85: He won the biggest 8 pt at Los Cazadores:
Maverick County; Picosa Creek Ranch

http://www.loscazadorescontest.com/categ...p;cat_div_id=59

I think in the drier parts of the state that anyone that starts eradicating spikes is going to have a real crummy deer herd in just a few short years. A lot goes back to what Momma had to eat before Jr ever hit the ground. Watch this year and see if you don't see more forked yearling bucks than last year. You will see more next year also. It's the nutrition factor. The only spikes I would kill would be spikes on a 3.5 plus deer that are like 8-9 inches long and have mass. Killing a spiked yearling makes zero sense to me.

Even with a consistent feeding program it will take 3 years to see good results. You are supplementing what nature is giving you in the hope the body gets taken care of so the antlers can get to a given bucks max potential. Along the way there are many things that can set a buck back. Parasites is a big one. There are any number of bugs a deer can have that will interfer with his growth.

Many people are making the mistake this year of cutting back on their feeding programs to save money. The deer have lots of food, but like CHC has been trying to say the natural protein levels are not optimum for big antlers. The deer have adapted to naturally low protein levels but the racks are where it shows.

If you can afford to supplement at least 17% for 3 to 6 years you will consistently see better deer on your lease. BTW, don't let anyone BS you into the more is better theory on protein. 20% is about all a deer can actually metabillize. Anything over 20% will end up being pooped out. The 20% plus proteins are mainly for deer that live in a pen all their lives and have very little variety.

Your 9 point can also revert back to an 8 or a 7 as he gets older and the teeth wear out and he can't eat as much of the right stuff.

Just my two-bits.

What show did you see this deer taken on? I haven't seen the show although I did see the deer the day it was taken and let me tell you I haven't seen a picture yet that even comes close to doing him justice. This deer's frame is simply incredible with 30" beams and 13" 2s and 3s. The young man in the picture passed away a couple of months ago of cancer. He was a wildlife biologist and was not even 30 years old. I'm glad that he was allowed to take this buck and he had at least that pleasure before his passing. Great for him and God bless his family and may he RIP.

also, if i wanted to manage my deer herd profesionally, i would inlist a private biologist.

knock kroll if you want,but the fact is, that man, along with larry weishun and bob zaiglan, have made alot of money because there good at managing deer. i think that TPWD biologists are good, but like the court appointed lawyer, not the best choice if you want to get serious about managing your deer herd. they are fine for managing probably 95% of ranches in texas, but they are in the middle in terms of quantity Vs. quality. all the really high caliber ranches use private biologists

as far as a deer herd is concerned, what took several years to build up can be destroyed in 1 or 2 seasons if not managed right

True, there are a few places like the south Texas Brush country that can hit a higher protein value, but it is sort of like your statements about Kroll, and the other two guys. They started out working for TP&W, and found out that they could make more $$$$ by turning private.

I feel that there are some really great biologists working for TP&W, but everyone has to remember, they are trying to manage all the deer in the state, not just the ones on a few very private very, high dollar hunting ranches.

One can not really be equated against the other, if TP&W biologists had unlimoited budgets and everything they came up with was listened to and carried out to the letter, then possibly the deer herd in Texas would be in better shape.

But the TP&W biologists don't have that, and that along with the money is what pulls some of the more talented people away from TP&W. JMO.

Guajillo is good only in limited amounts. It has toxins in it. Same with black brush..great for the deer, but only limited amounts. Granjeno has high protein levels all year around and no toxins that I have either heard or read about. But, whatever it is the protein levels tend to fall off as new growth slows down and you end up with your deer getting more fiber than protein. Also many of the plants may have good protein levels but the right vitamins and minerals are lacking in the soils. Vitamins and minerals are what antlers are all about. For an education on vitamins,minerals, and micro and macro nutrients that deer need look at www.deerfood.com.

On my property 2yrs ago we had a spike under my feeder that had lost half of his tail; I watched him several times that year and he disapeared. Next year he was back as a small 10pt and i probably would have taken him except the 13in laws went into affect and he was not legal so i passed on him again. Hopefully he will come back as a legal deer this year and give me a shot but there is alot of pressure at and around are area so who knows, but im sure of one thing spikes can grow into great bucks sometimes and i wont take any at my place legal or not! By the way i only have 47acres so im pretty certain its the same deer.

I personally would like to see some documentation where it says an eight point is inferior. It's hard to believe that being an eight point has a genetic deficiency. Just for the sake of discussion that eight pointer in the pics didn't look genetically deprived to me!!

jimmy rutledge is also very well known, that he just happens to work for the state is one of those things. he has also been a south texas biologist for 25 years, he knows how to grow a buck or two. can't say that for most other state biologists.

cool_hand:

an eight point buck is not genetically inferior, it is gods cast for a buck, but ranches can't make as much money on a eightpoint like they can a ten or twelve ( due to increase in inches per extra tines). they help out the young tens and take away the competition by shooting 8's as well as true culls. that eight in that pic was probably extra wiley and filled his belly with a lot of protien at night, while eluding bullets from managment hunters. he slipped up, made a wrong turn down a trail and BOOM!

we have been shooting mature (at least 3 1/2 years old ) eights as well as culls, for the past 5 years and last year i saw more young ten points than a ever have.

Here is another mainframe 8 point I think any of us would die to have on the wall.

Bang! ( I love big, mature 8's)!