Haven't been on a lease the last couple of years so this is my first year under ARs.....and NOT looking to start a civil war here either.

Was able to sneak away this afternoon and get an evening hunt in after the front blew through. Fortunate to be about 100 miles from the lease. About an hour before dark, a brute of a buck walked out from behind and about 60 yards right of my stand eyeing a couple of does in the field in front of me. This guy was very big bodied and very mature, easily 5.5 or older. Rack was ten points and VERY tall with ridiculous G2s and heavy antlered.....really cool buck I'd be proud to put on my wall. I was getting set to possibly take a shot when he turned his head and I realized how narrow he was.....ARs immediately popped into my mind. I was able to watch him for about 5 minutes with multiple chances at broadside shots, but just couldn't commit not being sure if he would make it. He eventually wandered off and I missed my chance.

After getting home, I measured a couple of deer and think he'll make it, but I still can't be positive as he never extended his ears, though I think he's well inside them.

Here's my dilemma/problem with this scenario.....here's a mature buck who I estimate in the low to mid 130s (and that's with a narrow rack and small brows) that is possibly not legal who ain't getting any wider ever. I've been hunting deer for quite a few years, and he would have been a nice addition to my wall AND would have been a good cull buck under ANY management plan I've ever been associated with. We can't shoot him even though he's reached his potential, yet he will survive to spread the same genetics to future generations of deer. Doesn't this defeat the very purpose behind antler restrictions?

Maybe I'm missing something, but this appears to be beyond ridiculous.

I too have wondered about the logic behind the antler restrictions. Sounds like you had ample oppurtunity to view the deer and still could not determine wether or not it was legal. How about the deer that is 100 yards away and you only have a minute or two to decide. You sound like a well educated hunter who can age a deer, which is way more important to me than the width of the antlers. I think maybe the rules are targeting less aducated hunters who don't know the importance of age.

This is my major problem with it. I believe the rules are gonna increase the chances of someone dumping a deer in the creek because when they measure the deer on the ground it is an inch or two short. I never heard it from a game warden myself, but talked to some other hunters last year who said the game wardens would be lenient last year, but it would be zero tolerance this year. I would never dump a deer if it was a little narrow, but I bet there are plenty who would for fear of a hefty fine.

There has to be a better way.....

There shouldn't be this much guessing going on to tell whether a buck is legal or not. This "LAW" is ridiculous and needs to be relooked at. I would like the game wardens to go sit in a blind and tell if a deer is 13 inches or not.

I agree. It is real easy to tell when it is on the ground....a little late then.

Welcome to our world....

Yes.

I'd rather them make every hunter pass a "deer aging course"; like a refresher hunter safety course...

just what I was thinking!

what would you do if you shot a buck and discovered it was too narrow ? Go turn yourself in ?

Life is just not fair!

I agree

I used to help a bowhunting outfitter on a ranch near Knippa. There was a buck there we called High Rack. He had great mass, beam length and tine length, but was only about 15" wide. Far as we know, he died of old age, but he had some sons that were clearly his genetics.

One was found dead, 13" wide, 8 pts and he scored right 130. Granted, Uvalde County is not an AR county, but the story is the same . I dont agree with the aging thing. Most guys I have met are worse at aging than they are at scoring on the hoof. I actually had some hunters trying to talk me into letting them kill a 2 1/2 year old 6 point on another ranch I outfitted on, saying he was long legged and high off the ground, clearly a mature buck.

I dont know what the answer is or could be. I know it is frustrating for most and laughable to some. Personally I just think it is a crying shame that it came to this.

I must be one of those, cause I've never had it explained to me where I could understand where the age of the deer was important to anything other than shooting a big rack. Please, educate me - explain the importance of age.

Thanks,

David

Not all deer are equal. Could be his ears are 15 or maybe 16" wide.
I don't judge a deer's rack with the ears. I can look at the width between the beams and know if it's legal or not. But again, I bow hunt. The deer are close and not 100 yds off.

I tried to sneak down with a tape measure once, and didn't work out too good. I never even got a shot.

We saw approx 8 different bucks on our property in Marshall last year and I don't think any would make the 13 inch rule. Saw 2 nice 8 points this past weekend and they wouldn't make it either. One was close, but too close to chance. To tell ya the truth, we have had this 137 acres since 1977 and I really can't remember one that would make it ever. Many look very old and have small racks. Don't these just continue to pass these genes down the line? Wide racks in the brushy woods don't work so I feel they have stayed small to work through the heavy brush over time.

Joe

I am no expert by any means... but if you keep killing 13+ deer and passing on 13- then eventually all the deer you will see will be 13- because they will continue to breed... TPWD said that the less than 13 bucks make up only 4 to 5% of the mature population, I just dont think that is the case...

Well said and exactly my point.

And let's for a moment assume that TP&W is right and only 4-5% of mature bucks are less than 13". Well, if that's the case and you can't shoot them even when fully mature and past their prime, wouldn't that indicate that they will only grow to a larger percentage of the population in the future? I mean, it really seems bass ackwards to me....let's improve our antlers by NOT shooting the bucks with inferior genetics.

For every case of 1 particular mature deer someone didn't get to shoot because of ARs, there are 10 young deer that survived that wouldn't have.

I love ARs. Best thing ever.

I was on the fence about A/R's, but have decided I don't like them. I've only had experience with them in two counties and not for all that long, but I don't think they've had an effect at all in one county and are seemingly having a negative effect in the other.

One place is in Bosque County and, frankly, the ranch is so big, with so little pressure, A/R's don't really matter. I'd guess that less than 20 deer per year are harvested off that place with few of those being bucks. That's less than one deer per 650 acres being harvested.

But on my place in Wise County, we're only in the 2nd year and I already think they are having a negative impact. The neighbors are still firing at will, but now they are taking any buck outside the ears, regardless of body size. In the past, they only really cared about taking big bodied deer.

In 2009, I had at least 6 different young bucks who would easily make 13 inches, but were too young to harvest. One little guy inparticular had me excited about the future. He looked like a fawn in the body, but had a great little rack until a neighbor popped him for being outside his ears.

This year, I have one legal mature buck on camera. However, I have 3 big bodied scrubs who need to go, but I can't legally harvest them because there is no way they now, or ever will, make A/R's.

It's a dumb law, but it makes this guy legal (my favorite youngster from last year, who I thought to be a yearling at the time):





I had hoped he'd grow up and look like this:

Do you have documented evidence of your 10:1 ratio?

I hunt in a place similar to KennyLee and totally agree with his synopsis. Young bucks are still getting shot, but it's primarily limited to wider antlers and better genetics while the narrow racked deer with inferior genes get to live....and breed...forever. Doesn't take a NASA engineer to tell me where this is going to lead.

Maybe it has a purpose in some parts of the state, East Texas for example. But the counties where I hunt and have hunted, it's a detriment.

How would making all bucks legal save that young wide buck? If you put the young big racked deer at the feeder with the old inferior deer, the young deer is still getting shot.

+1, and the inferior deer is still going to breed. It is almost impossible to manipulate the genetics and make a difference in the herd in a low fenced environment. I still want to see a study that shows culling inferior deer will improve the genetic makeup of a deer herd.

i.e. If you are in an area that has narrow antlered bucks and you leave a wider antlered buck and shoot a narrow antlered buck, you will still see narrow antlered bucks in the future. I sure wish I could kill off my "culls" and have monster wide trophys from here on out...but that isn't going to happen even behind the fence.

Not sure about you, but my group WOULD shoot the older narrow buck instead of a younger deer of any kind, but we CAN'T because it's against the law. So instead of being culled from the heard as well as being a deer one could be proud of such as the one in my original post, he's left to spread his genetics on to future generations.

I totally disagree, it is just another "hoop" you have to jump through to get in the stand... I was old enough to not have to have Hunters safety... I took it anyway and was amazed at the GARBAGE the guy was feeding the class. I really gave him a hard time on several issues (he knew NOTHING about duck/goose hunting).If you had a "deer aging course" Who would be the instructors? what would be their qualifications? and what exactly would they teach? You can put any picture of a deer on here and get 10 different opinions from 10 different people who are "qualified" to have that opinion. It seems to get a little harder every year to actually be able to hunt.....

Why does everyone believe that letting go a deer that would have been big enough is the worst thing ever?

My county doesn't have AR's, but I hunt in a 1 buck county. Last year I had a very nice 8-pointer that would have been legal in any county walk out 10 minute into my season. Now, do I shoot my buck 10 mins into my season on a lease that I've been deer hunting for 10 mins? Or do I wait and see what else is out there?

I passed on him and it turns out he was by far the biggest buck I saw all year. Ended the season with no kills.

I've only killed 5 bucks in my life and this one was 10x bigger than the biggest I've ever killed.

But I would much rather passed on him and not shoot a deer, than to shoot him, and then see one bigger that I couldn't shoot. If you're that desperate for meat shoot a doe. Are ARs the answer or the best solution, no, don't think anyone is claiming that. But why is it so hard for someone to just let a borderline deer live? Worse things could happen.

something else that bothers me about AR is that, OK lets say it works... or you are lucky enough to have it work in your area so then after a few years most of the deer are 13+ then what... will the new spread be 15+ because 13+ is now an inferrior deer and must be culled?????