I understand the intent. Too many young deer being shot. But in East Texas we are seeing way to many 3 or 4 1/2 year bucks that don't make it and never will. Bad genetics with no legal way to cull the herd. Perpetual narrow racks, no brow tines, etc. In this respect the law sucks. I have many of them on game cam. Scoped a beautiful 8 point last Sunday, 4 1/2, huge body, tall G2s but wouldn't make spred, never will. What's the concensus from East Texas hunters???

Just interested....Could you post some pics?

Some have posted very similar comments here. While we're seeing some deer with racks that appear tall in proportion to their width, none have failed to meet the minimum. Most importantly, we're seeing many deer with racks that are well beyond the 13-inch minimum.

Whatever the case, the TPWD has always been very responsive to hunter feedback. If there is solid evidence that East Texas deer are more likely to grow tall racks with lesser than average widths, they'll makes changes to correct for it.

him tag him and hope your not checked.
Okay maybe not the best advice. Im in East Texas also and as with anything we have to take the good with the bad. Yeah it sucks that we cant shoot these culls, but the other bucks that are being able to grow because of it out weighs the culls that are getting a pass IMO.

My place is in Wood county in East Texas and I agree lot's of racks under the 13 rule but what I have seen over the last few years is several bucks finally getting there after feeding protien feed and solid food plots. No complaints here...I kinda like the 13 rule, seeing plenty of bucks both big & small.


www.buckandbassranch.com

I hunt in Upshur county and am very pleased with the 13" rule. The group on my lease has had it for 23 years. The largest deer ever taken was a 10 point with about a 12" inside spread. After AR's were put in place we saw one much larger deer last year and this year I have several on camera. The only problem I have with it is that there a few people on my lease who have no respect for the new rules.

Overall it has been great for our property. If we could get everyone on board it would be even better.

Based upon my own first-hand observatons, I am solidly behind the regulation. I am seeing many more bucks in Nacogdoches County including much bigger ones. I have not seen one yet that would likely fall into the category you describe (never going to reach 13"). However, based upon some of the comments I have read on this forum, including yours, I don't doubt for a second that in some areas there may be reason for concern. It appears to me based upon everything that I have heard and read that the folks who have observed what you have are in a distinct minority, but your concerns are valid just the same.

The potential over-harvest of does is also frequently discussed in conjunction with the 13" rule. In areas where folks are reporting that their herds are dramatically shrinking, I hope TPWD makes appropriate mofications soon. Once again, those types of observations are inconsistent with what I see in Nac.

maybe...maybe not, I won't find out anytime soon.


spread doesn't really indicate squat...considering some yearlings can hit that mark and some 6.5 yr olds will never be able to. By TPW records I have seen, they show that a buck should reach 13" by 3.5...so what does shooting at 3.5 yr olds really accomplish for "herd structure"..

I am kind of on the fence regarding antler restrictions. On the one hand, I think some type of antler restriction is good for overall antler quality of the herd, but I disagree with the strict 13" rule.

I shot an East Texas public land buck yesterday that I knew would make the minimum, but I cannot tell you how stressed I was until I actually put the tape measure to the spread. Turns out, he was over 1 1/2" beyond the minimum width, but his inside spread was not outside his ears.

Again, I am not disagreeing with the restrictions, per se, but I think there are better ways to implement them which would achieve similar results. I personally would rather see something like a "4 points on one side rule", which protects spikes but allows for cull harvest. 13" rule introduces too much stress into what should be an enjoyable heritage that we can share in.

Actually, the best antler restrictions would be a one buck rule, statewide.

A one buck rule still would not address bad genes. I can't figure out how to post pictures on this forum to show the kind of bucks I'm talking about. Any help???

This pic is exactly what I'm talking about! If I can ever figure out how to get pics on the forum you'll see much of the same except witout brow tines...inferior genes!!!

I hunt Sterling, Baylor, and Gregg (East Texas)counties. I don't have any problem finding good bucks to harvest in Gregg County. My son and I each harvested one Gregg County buck last year and they were really nice bucks, even comparing well to Sterling County.

The difference is that you have to sit for HOURS in a stand in Gregg County in order to get a really nice mature buck. Not because they are not there, but because there is so much more food in East Texas for them to eat. They just don't come to feeders like they do out west.

I think that is why so many young bucks are harvested in East Texas compared to West Texas. Hunters just get impatient and want to use a tag. This is especially a problem if they are coming to a lease for a weekend and feel the need to shoot something before they have to go home Sunday evening.

East Texas is loaded with good mature bucks. You just have to put in the time to hunt them. East Texas is just not condusive to short, weekend type "feeder" hunts.

I let a very nice 6 point walk last year because of the AR rule. I watched him for 5 mins tryin to determine if he was legal and he right at the limit but I didnt want to shoot him and find out he was 12 5/8 spread,also the game wardon was hunting 300 yards away from me.

When that same buck would have been harvested at 1.5 without the ARs, it accomplishes a lot.

I think you have hit the nail right on the head.

I am a Hunt Project leader for a Youth group and as such I have seen the effects of AR in the areas we typically hunt.

First, the law was supossedly to protect 18 month old bucks from making up most of the harvest. Yet, I have never seen a 13 inch inside spread 18 mos. buck and I have seen hundreds of older bucks in my 45 years of deer hunting in this area, that are less than 13" inside spread. My question is why the radical approach? The hunter's rule could have been to shoot outside the ears and the spread limit for fines could have been set at 11" or 12". How many 18 mos. bucks have you seen that have more than a 12" spread? The answer is...very few.

Let me give some examples of experiences I have had with this:

1. Youth hunt, drawing area. A father and son (not part of my group) harvest a beautiful, heavy 10 pt. (Shooting is in heavy timber with quick evaluations. Soil is acidic and minerals are leached out of soil.) The buck is 12.5" wide. I age the deer and he appears to be a 5.5 year old trophy. The game warden is called. The game warden ages the deer at 4.5-5.5 years.

2. Public drawing hunt. It is a TP&W managed area of several thousand acres and much better than what the average hunter gets to hunt on around here. One buck is harvested by a hunter (not my group)and it is a dandy 12 pt..Only one problem..it is less than 13" (again more like 12.5" and the deer is obviously old). The game warden is on the spot. When I mentioned that this subspecies of whitetail has shorter ears than deer in other parts of the state,the game warden quips "His ears spread 13 inches".)
I saw a beautiful buck on this hunt. I have not hunted by myself in years and would have been thrilled to harvest a big buck. BUT, I only briefly saw the buck cross a road and could not see for sure that he was 13" inside. I watched him for ten minutes as he walked through the timber near me. He was a nice 12 pt..
Two weekends ago, I was on a Youth Hunt on one of the great ranches in our area. We were hunting for does only and we saw several magnificent bucks. The best one I saw was a very heavy ten pointer. He would not make 13" inside spread. When I showed the photo of the buck to the land owner, he classified him as a "Trophy Buck", which is a very rare designation on this ranch.If someone is very lucky, they will harvest him this year. But wait, he is less than 13" inches, you say. Yes, and here is the catch. They have MLD permits. Less favored hunters, like the majority of lease holders, would not have the privilege to take that deer.
That is my two cents.
I would like to add that I think hunting was a lot more fun when I was younger. It was a Texas social outing instead of a "Trophy Hunt". Families hunted together and everyone enjoyed the outdoors. That said, I was one of the first to attend an Al Brothers lecture on managing for quality whitetails over 30 years ago and I have never favored wanton harvest of deer or mismanagement of our wildlife resources. I have managed Lamps and Management leases and have had a hand in helping to produce quality deer in the past. But, I think the that landowners should choose the program they want for their land and that TP&W should manage generally in a way that promote wise use of the outdoors and conserves natural resources for all Texans. They should not be in the "trophy" business.

I hunt in Henderson County and I can see your point. This weekend I saw around 8 bucks in which none of them were legal to shoot. At the same time I have never seen that many bucks all year long, let alone in one weekend. Most that I saw were young so I think in the next two or three years we will be seeing much nicer and bigger deer!!

Unless you are in an area that can't sustain the depletion of the population from taking 4 deer now instead of one. Then your numbers will plummet.

And what about the 1.5 year old deer that does make 13 inches wide? He's going to be a monster, but gets blasted at 1.5 and never breeds.

I think it could work in some places, that have the numbers to sustain it. I am sure you guys are correct and it's helping your place. It's killing some of us...

I see both sides. Believe it or not, I have seen deer with short or long ears. But from the way I see it the good outways the bad. I hunt in fort bend county. Been on the lease for 11 years now, since I was 14. We have always had plenty of deer and no shortage of bucks, but in the beginning you would not even dream of shooting a 8,9, or 10 point even close to the width of his ears. The first three years with ar's, many of us went without shooting a buck, but now we are harvesting anywhere from 2 to 5 bucks a year 14 inches or wider, some making it close to 17 inch spreads. And, we are seeing more bucks than we ever saw,(I believe our buck to doe ratio has greatly improved as well).I understand your points, cause everyone's situation is different, but I am very thankful to have them!

I think that I should clarify that I'm not talking "sour grapes" just so I can shoot a deer. This ain't my first rodeo. I'm 58 and have hunted since I was 5. I hunt in Tyler county with a group of folks that are very conservation oriented. The area we hunt just doesn't support wide racks and we obviously have old deer without brow tines. We have lots of bucks, big body bucks with high, narrow racks! So we just perpetuate the problem and as these deer are not shot they just die after passing on there genes. The cycle continues. I will never agree with the 13" inch rule for our area.

David O.
NRA Endowment Life Member
Friends of NRA Charter Member
Houston Gun Collector Assoc. Member
Bay Area Shooting Club Member

but there is a legal way to do it.... do the wma or whatever it is called.... just takes more work.

I dont think anyone can argue that the AR's have not helped in the counties they have been implemented. Sure there are deer that you just wont be able to shoot, but the overall greater good is whats best. I know I am seeing more big deer come out of those counties than I ever have. I say great job that the state is doing with the AR's.

The TPWD Whitetail program leader said there research shows only 5% of bucks have this issue in East Tx. Last week in their public chat when this topic came up. You guys that have lots and lots of bucks under 13" but are mature need to send lots of pics their way.

Perhaps the TPWD could modify the current restriction to include both minimum width, OR mainbeam length. In fact, the length of mainbeams is used in other states.

IMHO, it's more important to concentrate on nutrition and age than genetics.

I am no geneticist, and while I know their is an accepted philosophy that a buck with a jacked up rack will produce offspring with jacked up racks, this is rarely a universal truth. There are just too many variables that contribute to the genetic make-up of any particular deer. Remember, the doe provides half of that genetic make-up.

Also, I have blue eyes. Neither of my parents do, but my grandfather does. A beautifully typical racked buck, I believe, can still produce offspring with a jacked-up rack, and vice versa.

At the end of the day, you cannot cull-out "bad genes" from free ranging deer. It's impossible. Every deer herd in America has those deer which exhibit "bad genes," even Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, Kentucky, and Wisconsin. But their season structure is very different from Texas' season. Can you imagine what our herd would be like if we went to a one buck limit and didn't shoot the herd to pieces for three months with rifles?

I am not saying that there are not significant habitat differences, but come on. Think of the possibilities.