Welp we are still doing FF and we seem to be at a little bit of a stale mate. Anything that I hold he is 100% on, but on the ground he is still a little hesitant with the buck. He goes down and looks like he is grabbing it, but he is really just kind of mouthing it and not picking up. When I HEEL him after it looks like he picks it up it just falls out of his mouth. I can lightly press under his chin when he is down there and it kind of scoops up in his mouth. Pressure is applied the whole time. Any of yall seen anything like this? Any advice for me? I am thinking I will keep on the pinch until his head is lifted up. I don't want to keep pinching if it's in his mouth though.

When the bumper is in his mouth, have you knocked it out of his mouth and put pressure on him to fetch it again? He may think having it in his mouth is good enough. Also, you might try some live birds, pigeons or banty roosters. they put up a pretty good fight and he might understand that if he doesn't hold with enough pressure, the bird falls out.
I think that may help, but i think more reps and might try more pressure too. Are you doing any collar stimulation for this?

I am in almost the exact spot on FF with my DD. I am going to see a trainer this weekend and get some professional advice on how to correct this. I will post up what he says to do next week.

TG37: No I haven't knocked it out of his mouth and reapplied pressure, but that sounds like a good idea. He knows HOLD because I would knock it around to show him the proper grip, just wont lift his head to pick it up. This morning I used my boots to elevate the training buck a few inches and he did much better. Maybe I went straight to the ground too fast? I can't find any live birds for sale near me yet but I think I may go ahead and get out the frozen duck from the freezer and start working him on that. No collar yet, still using the ear pinch. Can't really afford a new collar just yet (I want the kind with a beep also to use for a recall).

Tmec: Thanks man I am glad I am not the only one facing this issue. Like I said using my boots to elevate the buck a few inches off the ground seemed to help. I really want to move on to walking fetch, but I can't let myself until we get this ground issue worked out. Let me know what your trainer says please.

Gengo, try the knocking it out. That should work, also, try the Collar Clinic.com. They have nice, used collars for a good price. Or tractor supply, and you don't need the beep, it's more for pointers, and it cost more. Also, make him get his head up. That is a "i'm being lazy and dont want to do it so im not going to look at you" sign, or at least it sounds like it. I really think with collar pressure, you will see a big difference. Make sure he is collar conditioned first though.

Yeah I am fired up to try it when I get off work this evening. I was wanting the beeping function to use as a recall so there is no negative pressure to come back, just a beep to get his attention. I really want to get one of the beeping/vibrating/shock collars and use the vibration as the SIT command. Maybe I'll start with just a shock one and move up from there. Not collar conditioned yet as there has been no need so far.

Collar condition to the OB to make it easier for the FF, in my opinion the FF is hard enough on them to throw a collar in the mix at the same time.

The beeping/vibrating stuff is all hokey...you got a whistle to do all that stuff for you. I single burst of whistle means sit and look at you for direction and multiple bursts means (same as here command) get back here and heel. Then you use the collar to reinforce those commands that you have already taught the dog.

Once he gets the bumper in his mouth try removing pressure and putting your hand underneath his chin and pull his head up. If he drops the bumper apply pressure with a fetch. As his head comes up with the bumper praise him a little bit and rub on his chin. Make it appear that is what you want by a positive reinforcement. FF is an awful lot of negative vibs and pressure try and make it a positive thing too. I am no expert and had help but I did a lot of praising during FF because I have a soft female and I wanted to get it done and get thru it. I knew if I did to much negative stuff or all pressure she would fold. That is why I did it myself instead of sending her off for someone else to do.

This is where an HRC or someone that knows more than you (us really) comes in handy. I have had 2-3 guys help me and it has made a HUGE difference in my dog. I couldn't do it alone.

Thanks Judd I am currently looking to visit a retriever club in Lake Charles but their next meeting is in August. I know it is a combination of my dog being a little soft and me being a complete amateur trainer. I have started lifting his head up and it seems to help him understand the whole "pick it up off the ground thing." A positive out of this is he is bumper crazy now. Going to start transitioning to using bumpers and a frozen duck this week using these new techniques that yall have provided me also. I think a change of scenery is also due. Maybe start FF-ing at our little play field right down the road.

This is going to be long.

FF to the ground without a hand attached to the object is the hardest part of FF. I can give you some pointers but unless I know how you got to this part of FF some of my methods might not apply.

So here is how I do the whole process from hold to FF:

The dog is collar conditioned before I start hold or FF.

TEACHING HOLD= Put pressure on the dog's upper lip by grabbing his snout and pushing the lip into it's teeth. Saying hold place the dowel in the dog's mouth, it takes a day or so for the dog to except this object in the mouth, but through training it starts to except it because it turns the lip to tooth pressure off. Just like sitting, when told to, turned the E-collar or choke chain pressure off. Once the object is in the dogs mouth, in a calm voice repeat the command (hold) and calmly pet the dogs head. If the dog drop's it immediately put lip pressure on, say hold and put back in mouth. Then pet and sooth by calmly petting. THE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE USED DEPENDS ON THE DOG.

Once you can put the dog in a sit, put a dowel in mouth, say hold and walk a few feet away with success you move on to walking and holding. Like getting a dog to go to ground in FF, walking and holding is the hardest part of hold (like a blond chewing gum and walking). Instead of walking away from the dog and calling it to you while it holds, grab the collar slowly start walking and calmly tell the dog hold. If he drop's it apply pressure, say hold and put back in mouth. Take 5 steps at first and gradually work until you walk 20 feet.

FORCE FETCH= With the dog sitting by your side grab the collar and ear in one hand, dowel in other. Pinch ear, and say fetch. The dowel is just in front of the mouth. At first the dog will probably grit its teeth and look confused. Keep it up and when the dog yelps put dowel in its mouth and say hold. A light bulb will go off in the dogs head and it will soon be jumping for it upon pinch and fetch command. Slowly work your way to the ground by holding the dowel closer to the ground with each days progression. Once you are on the ground start phasing your hand out of the picture. When the dog will go to ground without your hand in the picture you can move on to walking fetch. Before this you have said fetch, and once he went to ground you said sit and drop. Now you place the dowel on the ground, with dog at sit, hold collar and ear, give pinch, say fetch and once the dog has it say hold and heel(just like walking hold). If the dog refuses, keep pressure on ear, walk in a circle, say fetch and present the dowel to the dog again. If it is needed turn the pressure up when walking in the circle. Always use calm praise as reward.

Do not use bird's as a FF tool. Bird's should not be used for FF until it is taught. Same thing with E collar.

HonkerJake: That is the same way I taught HOLD and the same way I am doing FF. An update from last night and this morning: Same issues last night but we changed scenery and FFed in the garage. I also pulled out a frozen duck. He was pretty interested in it and was sniffing it but not crazy about it. Used it for FF and as you can imagine didn't go very well. It was a big and heavy frozen solid canvasback so not the best choice for the first intro to ducks. I see why you say not to use them for FF. This morning we were inside and I used a bumper and the training buck. Went well and he was picking up good when I had the object propped up with a shoe or something. Just not on the ground. We will keep at it. I think this evening after our walk we will have a quick FF session in a field. Thanks for all the help so far guys.

I would NEVER use a duck for force fetch until the dog has completed FF. I'd NEVER use a frozen duck EVER!

The easiest way to transition to the ground for me was to keep moving closer to the ground while holding the object like Jake mentioned. Also, once to the ground I would prop the object up with my foot. For instance left side of the dowel rod touching the ground and the right side of the dowel rod on my foot creating some space between the rod and the ground. While doing ear pinch push the dogs head toward the rod. Eventually the rod will go off until the dog is pulling you to the rod. Then put the rod completely on the ground. you might have to start out pushing the head to the ground. Eventually the dog will pull you to the rod.

What's everybody's reasoning to not use frozen ducks or ducks in general for FF?? Haven't really read anything negative about using them.

Because you don't want a young dog to associate the pressure that comes with FF with a duck.

The same thing with a bumper. That is the reason I use a dowel instead of a duck or bumper. I don't care if the dog hates the dowel, but if he hated ducks or bumpers I would have a big problem.

Once the dog is consistently going to the ground without pressure I will start using bumpers and birds.

Ok that sounds reasonable. I guess we just keep on plugging away.

Great Explination Honker!

Well said. FF is tough on most dogs and very stressful. That's the reason I wouldn't ever use a frozen duck or duck period until the concept is taught. Once the dog knows FF and is comfortable with it the end result is for the dog to retrieve a bird regardless of cold water, alive, etc etc. This is when I'd use a duck or frozen bird. At the end of FF, to let the dog know it retrieves when I want it to retrieve and not when it wants to. That's the whole point of FF. I also used glass bottles, paint cans, hammers, etc at the end of FF with my dog to make sure the point was driven home.

From a buddy of mine when I asked him about using frozen birds:



I think he summed it up well.

Still not sure I'd use a frozen duck. He and I will have to agree to disagree on that. I think other objects the dog doesn't like would suffice.

Skimmed over most posts so this may have already been said. From the original post, appears you have only taught the "forced hold" and not the "fetch" - teaching the dog to actually reach down and pick up the object. A toe hitch can work wonders in pursuading your dog to reach down for the object. Typically only takes a few sessions and they understand what you want. If you have not tried it, may be what your dog needs. Stick with it though, sometimes its just a matter of continuing to do things until the dog finally figures it out. Good luck!

Ok some progress. No ground work but he was really reaching out for it quick. Been keeping the sessions shorter too.

Grego, I have not read all the replies here, but I will say I feel your pain, been there and done that. I will give you some good advice, you will not get the advice you need on a forum, not when it comes to FF. Seek advice from a pro. I FF'd my own dog, but had a pro mentor in my HRC that helped me.

I think you can get good advice and bad advice on the forum. The reason I joined was to learn stuff from more experienced people on certain subjects, and hopefully contribute to subjects I feel experienced in.

You do have to use your noggin and pick and choose from the B.S. and the stuff that makes sense.

Yes, Guy is right to an extent. With dogs it is hard to say what to do without seeing the dogs response to you, and if the dog is even advanced enough to move on to that next step.

My advice to you is read every response to your post, don't go and try the training advice as soon as it's posted. Wait until you have heard a few opinions on it and choose what you think is best for you and your dog. If it is not going to work you should know pretty quick after trying. Your dog will not be ruined if you use some common sense.

I love trying to help with dog questions. I am not the all knowing, and my advice may not work with every dog and every owner.

I do think that dog owners, and soon to be dog owners benefit from post like this. That is the reason people join. They want to learn from other peoples experience.

Hey Jake, I agree with your post. Here is my point: 1) You need to educate yourself about FF with books/DVDs, AND 2) you need some one-on-one with a pro, let the pro do the first FF session while you watch and learn, then you try and let pro watch you. Very important I think because every dog is different. If you do this, and augment that with forum questions, that is the way to go. JMO!!!

I was looking through Evan Graham's book Smart Fetch the other day. This looks to be a good one for anyone wanting to ff their own dog. Got to agree with Guy spending a little time with a pro is a good idea if your first timer or if you run into any problems.

Pro's are great! Shoot me a p.m. and I would love to help you out. We have kennels in Elgin, and I train retrievers for a living.

If you want to do it yourself I would like to help if I can. I am glad you are seeking advice about FF on THF.

Someone looking for advice about FF can learn a lot from reading this post.

Ok a little over the weekend update. I have almost restarted, going back to me holding the bumper in different positions since he knows that. My transition to the ground is slower now and we are starting out with just one end on the ground and me holding the other. This seems to be working out very well. I am still holding one end, but I can get it almost to the ground with him grabbing it very well. Not even seeing much hesitation any more. Going to keep at this a few more days and try the ground again. I also have been trying to FF in different places; garage, back yard, deck, field down the street.

I would love to work with a pro, and am trying to hook up with a retriever club but so far haven't been able to make a meeting. Thanks for all replies and I agree someone just starting FF might do well to read through all of them.

Gengo
I talked with the my training mentor and he said to just keep applying presure until he begins to comply. Late last week my DD would just want to shut down when I would apply pressure while trying to get him to go to end of the table and pick up the elevated dummy. Then when he did pick it up he would not pick it up in the middle and he would hold it very sloppyly from one end or the other. I came home from the meeting and tried again and he would run to the end of the table and grab it in the middle and hold it correctly. Go figure. Another lesson in try,try again until you succeed.