I'm not hunting this weekend. We cancelled!! I think I took the blame. It doesn't really matter. It's no longer fun for me to hunt off a vehicle in 20 degree mornings.

I was to be the guest of an acquaintance, on his company lease in south Texas. He needed dogs. I was overjoyed to get the invite.

It's going to be a slow weekend for me so let's enter into a discussion on guest on quail leases.

Some guest privileges are open enough that two people can join together. I don't hunt alone, and prefer to hunt on weekdays. It's tough to find friends who hunt on weekdays. I fell in with Chuck Duran, three years after I retired. We've hunted together since then. We both joined on our first lease. It was the best lease I've ever had. We invited a friend. He joined and sold the lease out from under us. Two years ago we got this great offer in Archer county. We could openly join together, but take no more than 15 birds each day between us. We fell for it. We went twice and killed one bird. This is about the only bird dog picture I got from there;



I got invited to one of the Briscoe pastures last year in the Fowlerton area. Here are some pictures;



We drove upon both coveys;




They had lots of birds, but you couldn't get your vehicle off the roads. I think we found around 18 coveys, and saw every one of them before we let the dogs out. It was not my cup of tea. I would not have shot this bird for all the money in the world. It was running right to my Gator.




The Spade allows guest without guns. I drove up there a few years ago, to hunt with my friend Ron. I did not take a gun. Here you go;






I have a few more comments, but my fingers are tired. What are your comments, and observations?

Do you still hunt with Chuck? I know him from the GSP club here in Houston. Very nice man!

Until this past year, I've never considered getting on a quail lease. I'd like to now that I have a dog, however, I haven't heard many encouraging things (numbers wise and future prospects) about quail leases here in Texas.

What is the farthest you'd consider traveling for a lease?

My experience is that most leases allow a guest, some have limits on how many times you can bring a guest or for how many days. I believe the guest is an important part of the experience. You can put more hunters on a lease without guest and therefore reduce the cost. I do not like situations where member and guest do not hunt together. I have had to get rid of some members because their guest did not fit in.

I think guests should be allowed but with limitations. Like, the same guest can only come a maximum of 3 times per season. And, of course immediate family (wife and dependents) can come anytime. I've never had a quail lease but now that I have a new GSP I would like to get one next season. These are just a few suggestions that I feel would be acceptable to most involved.

We put together a rule in our group that you bring a guest occasionally, but the guest cannot bring dogs. The birds on our leased ground are for our dogs basically.

Very interesting rule. First impression is I like it. As a lease manager I find guest rules are the hardest thing to get right. The next hardest is merging the interest of the retired hunter with the weekend hunter and the occasional hunter.

I still hunt with Chuck.

The lease in Archer county was sold in order for two people to reduce the cost. We paid $4,500, which amounted to $2,250 for my one bird, but I guess the total cost for that bird was still $4,500.

That lease was 370 miles. Our Aspermont lease was 410 miles. That's close to my limit. I'm retired, and can spend an extra day on the road, but working people have to take off Friday to travel that far. The camphouse make a lot of difference.

I'm getting more dog work at home on my pen raised birds than most people are getting on their leases this year, but I still like to hunt different pastures.

This is a challenging and sometimes difficult topic for lease managers and definitley hunters. Hunting alone on a lease can be somewhat dangerous especially for older guys, no offense!!! Weather concerns are at the top of the list. Vehicle issues are an ongoing battle due to the terrain. Getting turned around and lost on a ranch you do not quite know is always a possibility. As everyone on the forum will agree, accidents do happen.

Let's face it, guests on a lease will always be and make much sense. The burden of responsibility lies totally on the leasee and he should be held accountable for the actions of the guest at all times. A simple, but most times difficult, conversation with your hunting guest for the next few days on your lease is a must. Topics of importance should be:

Hunting Ethics - Includes respect for the outdoors
Livestock
Safety
Gates
Cleanliness

Always thinking ahead will minimize, if not eliminate, conversations after the fact when at that time it is just too late. Leases must allow guests and the rules must be dicussed and agreed upon up front and followed. There is simply no other way around.

All of us have most likely been involved at one time or another or at least heard of an issue with a guest that screwed up the lease they had for years. And it was bad [censored] lease and they wish they had been proactive.

Billy

I do not like it for people to hunt by themselves, to many bad thinks can happen. I broke a leg real bad once by just having a rock roll. If I had been alone I would have been in deep do do.

sounds like a fair rule to me. As a first time bird dog owner, I'm finding out that I get more enjoyment in working my dog than in shootingthe birds anyway. Don't get me wrong, I still like to shoot but I wouldn't mind getting on a lease where I can bring my dogs and a guest to shoot. Spreads the fun around and if done properly, should not offend the others on the lease IMO.

Deer and quail are usually leased seperate, and at different times of the season, but I got on a really good quail pasture, near Benavides, with some deer hunters one time. It was 4,000 acres with a camphouse. I was the only one on the lease with bird dogs. The total price was $16,000. There were 8 members who paid $2,000 each. I paid $1,000 and we used that money for the camphouse. I think everyone on the lease bird hunted with me a few times, and I had other guest. My friend Ron came down a couple of times. That was back when we still killed birds. I only shoot a few pointed birds anymore, and never shoot doubles.

I was on a lease at Paint Rock, with Chuck Duran, and Bob Murray. Bob invited a guest on our opening day. We agreed not to shoot doubles. He shot a double and we lost both birds. There's not much you can say and keep the harmony.

About wary of friends and letting them have use. After few incidences and plain shixxy doins over 40 years,Including having places leased out from under me at graphord,caddo and throckmorton,Brought friends they bragged on quality to their professionals/ zip out priced next year,Dumb incidences included shooting cow over dog stomping,pistol practicing in hay stack(ground into feed),slugs in trough,deer shooting after season, pot shooting an later slaughter of bedded birds in snow in 72 on keechi creek banks, Current place few bunches flush an work singles take a single,move on,, Latest Son brought out a young guy to lazy to walk ,and was asked to leave mule an dogs on truck, as snows to rough on birds to bust up from drainages an plum thickets an go get a buck instead,and he says "great day to pot shoot abunch" , bs not here bye.

Yes sir we have seen it happen.

This thread has taken an interesting turn but it's sure enough the man with the lease's job to control his guests. I've stopped hunts cold twice in my life, once when a guy shot into a running covy 20 ft in front of him, and once when a Doctor guest of my dad's shot my dog at 40 ft, ten minutes after getting directions about low shots. Some folks don't deserve to hunt good places or over good dogs. You can't catch and release quail(I've had some dogs try) but you can take care of the resource. And you can't fix stupid.

Let's get back on point.
What do you believe the quest policy should be on a quail lease?

Hypothetical Question
10,000 acres prime quail country all huntable and atv friendly.
Lease cost 30,000
How many hunters?
Guest Rules
Other Rules


Have fun.

Here's how I would try to do it:
6 hunters.
$5,000 per hunter.
2 guests max.
No more than 1 bird per covey per person.
Excluding immediate family, no guest more than 3 times to lease.
No more than 8 dogs per paying hunter in camp per trip.
Depending on the bird population, hunting may be suspended ealier than TPWD end of season to save brood stock for the following year.

Does this sound reasonable?

Ten hunters (thinking not all will ever be there at one time)
1 guest/trip after opening weekend
No drugs or booze in the field
I get to hunt the best areas when I'm there

Interested in the eight dog limit?? How would bringing 9 or 7 be different? by the way I have 3 so don't really have a dog in that fight.

I hunt with some guys that their truck is setup to carry 8 dogs. They bring 16 dogs to camp. It's like an outfitter showing up. The good side of this is they are not interested in meat hunting, just getting plenty of wild bird work for their dogs.

Great comments so far

In this economy, and bird population on the decline state wide, I strongly caution the high priced lease fees of $4,000.00 -$5,000.00 and above. They are only going to attract the kind of hunters we have been identifying on this very discussion. If these prices become the market standard, which they almost did as recently as 2007, this will not be good for bird hunting in this area.

I firmly believe if lease managers/ranchers/owners screen their applicants properly and actually meet and interview guys instead of sending them to the property and rushing to sign them on the lease we would see some consistency in our lease members and set the lease would be set up for success.

If I were a ranch owner I would rather have less money in my pocket and trustworthy and ethical hunters with some long term commitments than more $$$ and the problems that go with these $$$.

It is a business and well thought out strategic business decisions need to be made.

The toughest things I have had to manage over the years are trying to keep the membership closely aligned in how many times a year they hunt, how many dogs they have, will they send out an email to the group to try and get another person to go with them so the pastures dont get beat up with a paying member plus a guest (solo hunting I call it), are they willing to agree to our guests cant bring dogs and a section or smaller pasture has to have 3 days of rest before the next hunt, etc. A few of our members are now retired, which in a good year can cause problems because of all of the middle of the week trips which might make a small pasture off limits (hasnt been a problem the past three years as bad as its been). Everyone sends an email to a Yahoo Group email that copies everyone after a hunt to report where they hunted, how many coveys, how many killed. A fair amount of this is interviewing guys beforehand. The most any guy in group has is three dogs. I have turned down a lot of 6 and 8 dog guys because existing guys would immediately think that Charlie and his crew of vacuum cleaners is raping the place, just because they only have one or two dogs primarily. We have an internal 2 page rules word doc that gets sent to any new member, and it tells them if they jump a fence, get a game warden ticket, etc -- they are gone and I will send them a prorated check back. Its too hard to find good ground to have someone get you kicked off. Just some of my thoughts

I have seen the cost of leasing go from 50 cents an acre to $4 per acre and in south texas it is 8 to 10 per acre.

I also like to go eye ball to eye ball with prospective hunters. However, logistics can make that impossible.

Many times have I set up to show a place and have 3 hunters lined up to come on a Saturday and none or 1 show up.

Dances is eliminating a problem by not allowing quest with dogs but it appears that he is working with a fairly consistent group very little change over in members.

I believe you need at least 1200 acres per member if you allow one guest and 1000 acres if you do not allow any guest. Obviously the amount of time a member hunts and the type of hunter he is can really impact those figures.

Should the hunter who hunts more be charged more or not be asked back?

My main lease has a rule that you cannot hunt a pasture the second time until you have hunted all the rest of the pastures.

On the number of dogs issue my records show that the people with a lot of dogs do not kill more birds per hour then the hunters with 2 or 3 dogs.

Should the lease be priced by the number of dogs?

The hunters with more dogs don't neccesarily kill more birds,
they just have the resources to find more birds. The key here is fresh dogs. Especially hunting South where even in Jan. and Feb. it can be 80+ degrees.

Sample Rules

 Game Laws- All hunters and guests shall observe and comply with all Federal, State, Local and ranch games laws and rules.

 Sportsmanship- All hunters and guests shall conduct themselves in a sportsman like manner. No birds shall be shot on the ground or near deer feeders.

 Gates- Leave all gates as you find them. ( If a gate is closed, be sure it is securely fastened after you pass through) Do not drive over electric fences. Please report any broken fences or any unusual situations to the ranch office Vehicles- Any vehicles with catalytic converters are not to be taken off of established ranch roads and shall be parked only in designated parking areas.

 Fire- Range fire is a constant threat. No fires of any kind, including campfires are allowed. Campfire in designated area ok.

 Pets- No pets are allowed.

 Check-in - All hunters and guests must sign-in at the office and execute a waiver of liability. All game taken should be recorded in the sign-in book. Please sign-out when you are leaving the ranch premises.

 Alcohol- the use of alcohol during hunting hours is discouraged. Anyone found to be intoxicated or under the influence of illegal drugs will be required to leave the ranch premises immediately.

 Firearms- all firearms shall be kept unloaded (preferably cased) anytime you are not in your assigned hunting area. It is also recommended that you wear blaze orange while in the field.

 Hunting area- Hunt only in your assigned area. Please travel directly to and from your assigned area in a manner that will not disturb other hunters. Do not drive in areas that are not in your assigned area except as is necessary to reach your area.

 Firewood, plants, artifacts- These items are not to be removed from the ranch without permission.

 Litter and Trash- Hunters and guests will keep the ranch free of litter and trash (this includes empty shell hulls).

 Guests- All guests must be accompanied by a Lessee and must execute a Waiver of Liability prior to going to the field. Limit one guest per Lessee per trip. All minor children must be accompanied by an adult.

 Livestock- Do not hunt or fire guns at or in areas where livestock are grazing, watering, or bedding down. Every effort should be made not to frighten or disturb livestock.

 Other game animals- No animals or birds other than Mourning Doves and Bob White Quail shall be harvested.

 Feeding- There shall be no feeders or hunting on baited ground. Hunting doves on baited ground is expressly prohibited by Federal law.

 Quail Data-Please complete a hunting report for each hunt on the ranch. A separate report shall be made for each morning hunt and each evening hunt. The report shall be left at the ranch office or in the check-out box.

 Pastures-It is important that we equalize the hunting pressure on the pastures. Hunters shall not hunt a pasture more than two times until they have hunted in every other available pasture.

Sharing information can be very beneficial on forum topice such as these.

I am sure it is challenging to manage the hunting trips and fields that get the most attention from hunters and dogs. Guys with all the time, mainly retired and guys like me who have spring and summer peak careers, will most definitley hunt more than the weekend guy and his neighbor. I guess each lease should have a certain amount of out of state hunters?

I agree with Tigger on the amount of dogs to amount of birds harvested. Just because joe hunter brings 10 dogs doesn't mean he shoots 10 times the quail, just means he spend 10 times the amount on dog food and vet bills, which is another topic.

Seriously, if the quail population was at a high level, and on the rise, we would not even be having this discussion. And us poor folks like me would not be hunting on leases that are priced at corporate rates. But it's not and the amount of birds we do have and the hunters that hunt them must be managed properly to secure the longevity of this most prized local sport.

Wow, it's a shame the gentleman's sport has come to this. So much money, so many rules...

+1!

Guys we have all bad experiences with leases and lease partners. This sport we love is on the decline. I have one rule on my lease, introduce someone to the sport each yr. Don't drive people out of the sport with too many rules that other people might feel are elitist. If a young person takes a shot at a bird on the ground, don't shut the hunt down. Show them the right way and make sure they enjoy the hunt. We need all the soilders we can get!

Are you saying you have no limits on quest. To some degree rules are only for the honest man. If we all used good judgment and tried to insure the our fellow lease members had as good of a time as we did we would not need any rules.

I've hunted quail in Texas for 42 years and been on around 15 leases. This is the first time I've ever heard of limiting the number of dogs. The guys with the most dogs usually kill the least quail.

Your hypothetical sounds a lot like our lease at Mergargel. It was 8,300 acres of 100% hunt pastures, with a camphouse. Jeff Horn put the package together, because he had hunted the lease in the past. They'd had 100 bird weekends. Anyone driving along county road 210 would have lusted over it. There were 8 members with guest privileges. Chuck and I joined together, but the rules allowed for 2 guest per member, but no more than 15 birds per member. We killed one bird. Jeff stuck onto the lease for a third year. It's a great place to run dogs, but...............

Another three years like the last three and the landowners can kiss most of the quail money goodbye. You can get a lot more dog work in NSTRA than you can get on a $5,000 lease. In the old days you kept the lease for killing birds, but I've killed more birds in NSTRA in the last 5 years, than I have on leases.

The same goes for hunting dog trainers, 20% of atv sales, 20% of the economy in small west texas towns will be history.

NSTRA and other artificial hunting games are just that. For those that do play the game I believe it is great and you get to see some wonderfully trained dogs, meet great guys. I have a johnny house and 900 wonderful acres to train and run dogs on but it is just not the same to me as wild bird hunting and watching good meat dogs work.

I know I'm repeating myself. I would also, rather hunt wild birds, but there just are no wild birds for me to hunt.

I started a couple of threads on here about my hunts in Wharton county. We're finding wild birds but not like in the years past. Here's an excerpt from a log I kept in 1992, about a hunt on that same pasture;


"January 12, 1992: This was a hunt I'll treasure forever. I went out this morning with ET, and SK. We hunted the Goat pasture near Wharton. It was wet and the water was standint in the low places. The quail were on the ridges.I don't know how many coveys we got up. My guess is 12 to 14. Some ridges had two or three coveys in a small area. All the coveys were pointed. Some were devided finds that we originally thought was a point and a back.

Sis made a little loop to hunt by herself.

Ginger pointed three coveys while Sis was gone. Her second was a covey that brought old memories of South Texas hunts during her prime. It's not classic, but the covey was running and she stayed with them. She knew what she was doing and we knew what she was doing. She had a perfact location when the birds stopped. She went on to point several more times including a dead bird that we had shot out of our first covey.

Ginger was always the least trouble of any dog i've ever owned. Cathy sneaked her in several times to sleep with her over the holidays. She was a lady.

We knocked down 37 birds and picked up 34 birds.

Ginger died in her kennel after the hunt."

I am just getting into quail hunting so from a newbies point of view, why would I spend so much money on a lease with so many rules and so few prospects? Is this what quail hunting In Texas has become?

Sounds like the glory days are behind us which is unfortunate. appears Those of us just getting started missed out on what I would say attracted me to the sport in the first place ( e.g. Experiencing what Bill describes above on a Large affordable lease.) Any chance that it could ever be like it was before?

As to the previous post of we need more soldiers, I agree with that wholeheartedly but it will be tough. I can remember 15 years in Archer City, Olney, Albany, Haskell -- those hotels would be full of dog boxes, probably half the guests. Now, its rare to see one umtil you get out in the sandy soil country. Right now, we are down two members in our group but I have a hard time wanting to take on new ones with the uncertainty of what we got. New comers dont understand the boom and bust cycles etc.

As far as limiting number of dogs, I have found in practice that if you are running a tightknit group of mostly friends that all hunt with each other, to bring in an outsider who is the only member that has a large armada of dogs causes issues based on the perception that hunter will be more successful. It also makes pairing up and hunting tougher because its tougher to swap off on dogs every other turn as well. If its a loosely coupled group of hunters that didnt know each other before, then its much less of an issue I would think (and probably impossible to impose that level of cherry picking of members)

tigger I guess I am lucky enough to have a good group that has hunted together for many yrs. We mainly just use common sense and try to make it fun for all involved.

I do not believe there is a person who would not like to see it like it was 20 years ago. In the 1980s I use to teach tax seminars for Texas A&m. I would load my 2 dogs in the truck and head to Abilene, San Angelo, Lubbock, Amarillo, Vernon, Wichita Falls, etc. At the seminar I would as if anyone had a place I could hunt for a day and that I did not mind paying a small day lease fee. In almost all areas I would be offered a place to hunt. In those days most of the area had very few deer and Georgia, Alabama etc still had quail. You almost never saw an out of state hunter. Today most of the remaining quail country in Texas also has Deer. Therefore the area holding huntable quail numbers are down and the quail hunters are competing with the deer hunters for the lease. If the quail range keeps getting smaller and smaller the cost of the lease will keep going up. If you go to a ranch management seminar today the talking heads will talk more about the recreational value of the ranch then the commodity production value. They spend a great deal of time talking about how to maxamize the hunting income stream. Ranches are being bought for no other purpose then provide recreation for the owners and friends. They can always find local to run a few cows. Our state government also contributes by allowing wildlife tax exemptions which cause those who cannot afford a ranch to have to pay more in taxes and make the ranch more affordable for the recreation owner. The bottom line is each year you have more dollars chasing less area. Therefore cost will continue to go up. With as bad as it has been this year cost might go down. I know a lot of deer and antelope outfitters have had to eat alot of hunts and if those acres become avaliable that could ease market pressure.

I am also lucky in that most of my core group has been together for 8 years. Most of the rules I posted come from the ranch owner and or there to help make it clear to new members.

Not a chance, You could never imagine what you missed out on,The reference to gentlemens? /everybodys/ sport becoming money an rules, true.In fiftys most bird hunters had 1-2 dogs.Put them in trunk, Get to throckmorton hotel play cards all nite. Get to Kirkendials(swenson),drop him off a case beer an 1/5 for weekend(fee).Start at clechi pits on Haskel hwy, Hunt fence burm 7 miles to truck ,unload birds,drop fresh dogs head back,1/2 to full tub of birds per day to clean.That lasted thru 68+- and popularity grew,deer #s increased, leasing,dog clubs started. Dallas trinity bottoms, hayed in good years 2-3 hrs start at mockingbird go south an circle back an find 15-20 coveys in ragweed on river bank an have 30 +. Then the bird drop began. down hill ever since.Ive found smaller place3- 500ac are better as you have ability to improve the numbers by working on area, and providing what it lacks in carrying capacity,Down side? leave all 4x4 transport home an walk it.Making the most of less and fewer people to deal with.Working with your dog is what its about,not 10 dogs,an 3000 acres aday.

I once had a lease on the coleman runnels county line. 1 section. I would hunt it on the way to a childress lease and on the way home from the childress lease. I had the place for 15 years and was leaseing from a friend. Some guy from mississippi lease the adjoining ranch and then offered my friend $10 per acres for his. That was 10 years ago.

Having a hunting ranch and watched the weather patterns over the past 5-6 years has opened my eyes pretty wide. Also having an outfitter that works our ranch has taught me a ton of conservation dos and don'ts. #1, you don't lease your land to anyone, least of all someone who has no foresight how to manage what coveys you have. I know this sounds pretty harsh and restrictive but there are hunters out there that don't know when to quit shooting. Coleman county and nearby surrounding counties are suffering from the effects of the drought. We have virtually no habitat and I'm as guilty as any when it comes to replenishing the natural grasses.

Now, heres another look from a different angle!! Our outfitter has in the past moved his bird hunting facilities mostly out West around Big Springs and Colorado City and other known hunting areas close by. To say the least, the numbers have dropped significantly there also because of hunting pressure. I know this is off the subject but "guests may have to take a back seat until, and IF, the region ever recovers from the effects of elements. It was great, like what has been refered to as 20 years ago, but the fragile quail are in danger and the #s are dropping.

Has it become a rich mans sport such as deer hunting and other hunting sports? Surley and rightfully so! Why? Because quail hunting is, if you please, is a gentlemans sport. Always has been and will continue to be as long as the birds survive. There is nothing to compare to hunting "wild" quail and being able to enjoy the fruits of your hunt with a plate of well deserved quail, hot biscuits and gravey and companionship with your fellow man and lastly, your best friend, your dog.

If outfitters are following the wild birds with their clients, then how would eliminating guests from paid leases positively impact the quail numbers?

Outfitters make money from putting their customers on successful hunts and the referrals/repeat business that comes from that. I'm not putting all outfitters in this category, but isn't it in the best interest of the outfitter to let their customers limit out on birds? Such practices are less likely to encourage population growth.

I would think that someone paying an annual quail lease would potentially have more influence over an invited guest thus having a better chance of positively impacting bird numbers.

as far as the gentlemans sport - when did driving the roads on a atv following dogs become the way to hunt. i turn down more people every yr wanting to drive around and hunt. quail numbers are getting lower but so are the real quail hunters.

I agree but the gentlemen use to ride in a mule drawn wagon so what is the difference.

Most of our bird dog's pedigrees go back to horseback field trial dogs. That was how the term gentleman's sport originated. People hunting from vehicles with unloaded guns will kill less quail than one person walking with a loaded gun. Try it with four people on the ground walking with a loaded gun. The 4 people on the vehicle will stay together, but the four people on the ground will eventually get seperated at times, thus increasing the probability of disturbing more coveys.

This reminds me of a little story. Chuck Duran and I hunted our lease at Millersview from my Gator. Another member got didn't like it and complained to the ranch foreman. He asked to stay on the roads with the Gator. We were at a NSTRA weekend trail, where I counted out 36 quai, and put them in a WM gracery bag. I stuck the bag in the freezer till the next weekend, when we went to the lease and walked. I threw all those dead birds in a basket on my Gator. I never kept any quail, but the guy who complained traded his quail for Dallas Cowboy's tickets. I offered him all my dead quail, and he took them.

A walker is a meat hunter, and a rider is a bird dog man, to me. I don't remember the last time I shot an un-pointed quail.

I should have clarified myself a little better, I agree with you. But mainly I was speaking of the number of hunters in the field at one given time.

We all live and learn. As a younger man when I first started hunting quail I thought the more birds you could get on the rise and then hunt the devil out of those singles was the way to hunt. Used to brag about how many quail we would kill on a given trip to our lease. What we were doing was hunting ourselves out of a place to hunt quail!! After about three seasons we would all stand around scratching our heads saying: "where did all the quail go"?

Isn'the normal life of a bobwhite quail about 10-11 months? I doubt that what was killed 2-3 years ago impacted your hunting in year 3.
When the season closed in year 87-88 @ Dilly texas they were as many birds on closing day as the first day. Could not tell much difference in #'s but the next 2 seasons they had declined to where one couldn't find but 4-5 coveys per day. Hunting pressure sure did not cause this decline.

Same thing happened at the end of the 2005 season. Ranch foreman told us they had large coveys of blues and bobs until mid march, then they seemed to disappear.

in alabama. never saw one up here.

i disagree that a walker is a meat hunter. i walk and talk and watch the dogs with a o/u and only shoot at pointed birds and never doubles.
most atv hunters i've witnessed will grain a road then come back the next day to hunt and to me that's just not hunting. sorry

The REAL problem with quail numbers is not the number of dogs a hunter runs, or shooting doubles on the rise, or killing a few singles, or what rules one has on a ranch.

There are 2 REAL problems: 1, lack of sufficient rain at the right time, and 2, habitat degradation.

Sure, you've got to leave plenty of birds for seed, but the ground has to have rain and bugs for the chicks and not be so hot it cooks the eggs. There needs to be enough cover and forbs for seed but not an impenetrable jungle for the birds. Bare dirt and a helluva a bunch of pear and mesquite is not gonna produce many quail even if it does rain. On the other hand, good habitat isn't going to produce piles of birds if there is no damn rain.

Both habitat and rain have got to be good and I just haven't seen much of that the last 5 years.

You're right, if you look back at the TPWD charts you can see lots of years below the average. 2005 was one of the top 8 or 10 years. Rains at the right time. If we get those rains at the right time again, winter for the forbes and spring and early summer for the bugs and cover, we'll have another 2005. But only where the ground is right. The loss of cover, over grazing and growing gaps between the good ground are killing the hunting. The place I hunting this year should have enough seed birds to create a great year next year if we get the rain.

Weather paterns are killing us. Draught in south texas, rain at the wrong times or not enough rain has been the pattern since 2005. Prolonged 100 degree days during the hatch. In Kansas they say it's a 5 year cycle. Texas, who knows. But I've seen great habitat from Childress to Abilene. Rain makes grain and it makes quail too........

True enough Tom but hunting and other factors has and is contributing to the decline of the bobwhite. I will add that if you don't think hunting can cause a decline in quail population you are fooling yourself. Theres a way to hunt and manage quail populations just like you manage deer herds. If you find that your bird population in a given season on a particular lease is three or four coveys in a days hunt then the best thing to do is let them rest.

There are a few people on the forum that know what size place we run our hunts on and ever since the "wet" year, 2005 I believe, we have had sudden drop in quail population. Mainly because after the deluge of rain then the weather did a 180 and we dried up like you wouldn't believe. Prior to 2005 quail hunting was our bread and butter. Now we can scarcely find five or six coveys, and those aren't of any size, on the whole place. Granted there are probably more but we haven't been able to find them yet. We've had to sell more deer hunts and the turkeys, which used to outnumber the population of Coleman, are also in short numbers.