Yet another rule from TPWD that is difficult to understand the meaning of. My only guess is that when they limit the amount of time, there may not be as many killed. I guess it's a way to allow doe to be killed, but not too many.

Couldn't they just lower the amount to 1 per person and do the same thing?

Who knows why TPWD does half the things they do? Your idea makes sense to me though.

The buck-doe ratio idea is weak, the only reason to worry about that is low fawn rate, which is hard to argue since Texas has the highest in the nation. So high, that other states are coming to Texas to research, or at least they were.

There's no evidence to suggest there was a problem before AR's. And no evidence to suggest that AR's have helped.

If it really is necesary for the health of the herd, then we just need to stop hunting for a year or two.... or just have the four day doe season.


I think it should be a rule that you post what county you hunt in before posting about AR's.

I hunt Red River/Fannin under AR's; Foard and Real counties without AR's. I see a lot of people for AR's that only hunt South or West Texas, which is really a different thing altogether.

Not that your opinion is not wanted, but be realistic in thinking Red River Co Deer will never look like Real Co deer...

Is this a new Man-Law

Make it so...

Heck yeah, I see more!!!! Before the 13 inch rule, hunters were killing anything that moved.

I have hunted Erath County for the past 12 year's with the oil and gas stuff going on deer hunting has sucked the high hard one for the past 3 years. This year I have seen the most deer in a very long time, however only one buck for sure past his ears. Some of these deer would easily age 4-6 year's old, have alot of mass and weight but the rack's are narrow.

Mature buck's, I think something needed to be done to slow the harvesting of young deer but the antler restriction is making it very difficult that we as Texans work so hard to protect and pass on.

There could be an alternative to the restricion but what that might be a hard subject to argue, I am just going to keep on following the rules and laws set in place so hopefully I can pass on an American tradition to my son and daughter.

It is an excellent rule and the proof can be seen by researching the P.W.C..They collared deer and studied them and proved that the numbers of bucks increased as well as the average age and size of horns..If you want to just hunt meat then I guess youll just have to take a doe instead of one of our future trophies. lets face it Texas doesn't bring in billions for the great doe hunting nor would you pay thousands of dollars for a lease because the does tasted better there.

May be but I must admit I'm seeing more and more too close to shoot older deer.

It doesn't bother me, not really a "trophy hunter", but if I just need to shoot something for the meat I'll take a doe. We just got ARs in stephens county this year, looked back at my bucks from years past(hunted the same land my whole life) and only 1 buck wouldn't have been legal under ARs and it was my first deer ever.

This is Montague County's first year under AR. I have seen three bucks that I don't think will ever be legal to shoot.

But not everyone pays thousands of dollars to just shoot deer, you might but a lot of us like to use the lease year round for other activities. Would I ever pay over 2k for a lease, heck no, when you get to that price range better off paying an outfitter.

Sadly, that will become common. At least there are some that will be 13's in Montague....come east 3-5 counties and see whats there...

Some people seem to resent the spike rule. The state has to do something to allow non MLD properties to manage genetically inferior deer. Don't blame the State because a large group of people out there can't wrap there minds around the fact that yearling and 1.5 year olds often have spikes and should be passed. Some people will shoot every "legal" deer they see. Then they will spit tobacco on the floor and say I paid for my tags and it is my right to use them.

Did you read this before hitting post "Don't blame the State because a large group of people out there can't wrap there minds around the fact that yearling and 1.5 year olds often have spikes and should be passed"?

The state is letting this people shoot more spikes now than ever? A lot of places that's all they can shoot!



As for the guy spitting tobacco and proclaiming his right...... he's right. I may not agree with his choices, but I will defend his right to choose...

Sig, do you think you should shoot yearling and 1.5 year old spikes? That is the point. State does not want yearling spikes shot. Older spikes should be shot. My point is a certain group of people will try to justify shooting anything. That is the problem with AR. Alot of the griping about it is by people who can no longer legally shoot any deer they see. It is the only way to slow them down.And yes I read it.

No I don't, but the state does..... or why would there be a regulation allowing it? Your statement was in direct conflict with itself.... If the state doesn't want 1.5 spikes shot, change the rule.

The point is a group of co-ops couldn;t even get their own members to abide by their rules, so the got the state to do it for them. The rule was bad and unpopular, so as they spread that crap around the state they added the second buck tag and increased doe harvest to appease some people.

So you are saying we shouldn't blame the state for the state regulation that now allows them to shoot the first spike they see and can then wait on a bigger buck? Who should we blame? The people following the bad rule or the people that made the rule?

The rule is to allow mgmt. Some people understand that it is not unusual to have a spike at 1.5. Others don't care that the deer is 1.5 they will just shoot it. The people who put these rules in effect have to deal with the reality that trying to get people to age deer is impossible but they also understand that there are certain deer that should be removed from the herd. I don't think you will find a biologist that says it is a good idea to shoot a yearling spike, you may find one that says its ok to shoot a 1.5 spike but those are few and far between. It sounds like you are in favor of 1 buck. If that is the case I can go with that idea. It causes some issues for mgmt on some properties but thats ok. And you are right it is a bad rule but the problem it is meant to address is worse. Bottom line the AR is in place to keep entire age classes of bucks from being shot out. 1.5-2.5. They didn't have a chance. Spike is to allow for mgmt, I do not think it was made to shoot yearlings.

Sig, while I am thinking about it why don't you put your idea of how it should be done up here. I have read alot of your posts on this topic and can't figure out what you think. I think AR stinks but understand full well why it has to be done. My perfect world answer is not to shoot immature deer but I understand why that can't be the rule. There has to be a rule so what would you do?

What was the problem it was meant to address? Deer populations were on a rise and at a 100 year high under one buck with doe by permit only.... wasn't a problem, so I don't need to come up with a solution. (I don't have a job with TPWD to defend either)

The age class thing doesn't wash... If it was that, then the spike tag defeats that right away.

Health of the herd? Nope, No CWD or parasites or ???

Low Fawn Rate? Nope, Texas has had the highest fawn rate anywhere in the US (maybe the world) before the implementation of AR's.

The old rule was fine.... in fact, we had one of the fastest growing/healthiest/best producing deer herds in the country.

What we didn't have was big wide bucks in East Texas or Big Bucks in pockets because of them....

For example

Why do you keep using the spike rule to justify shooting young deer. The spike rule is to take bad genetics out of the herd. The Fact that it creates a way for people to shoot yearlings is not good but in my opinion it was not intented for that and if Texas hunters were not intent on shooting a buck no matter what it would work. The problem is the hunter mindset not the law. So you want 1 buck and no doe except by state issued permit. You will have your ratios completely out of whack. What will happen is landowners don't care enough to get the permits, doe do not get shot. Is the biologist going to evaluate every property that wants these? Is this Statewide? What do you do west of the metroplex? or in LLano. We will be overrun with doe. They are already evaluting rules on a county by county basis.

First I am not justifying it, I am against it. I haven't shot one in years...

As for spikes being bad, sure, after they are 2.5 and still spikes, their bad, before that, we don't know...so why shoot them? Where does it say its not for young deer? ON the license? Annual? TPWD Website? I don't want to shoot them. I don't want to shoot them. I don't want to shoot them. But the state sells every redneck I know a license that says get four deer in Fannin or Red River County. And obviously you pro-AR guys know the state is always right.


Of course I am not advocating ONE BUCK statewide, I never said that, so don't go there that's stupid, and I never said it anywhere anytime. Read for content...

Here's a real-time comparison... FOARD County, ONE BUCK... Fannin/Lamar/Red River.... 2 bucks and 2 does??? That's just dumb. THe current law allows more deer killed in NE Texas than Cross Timbers/N. Central????

If we had the highest fawn rate in the country...... how do we know the age structure was bad? TPWD even says they have NO IDEA of the age structure of live deer.


At least under the old ONE BUCK rule, at least some of the dumb ol rednecks from out here in the sticks MIGHT pass on a young one.... now the state tells them they can take 2? SO you want the same people who "can't age deer on the hoof" to have enough stones to pass on what the state told them to take?

No, there are more deer being taken today than 4 years ago before AR's... These NE TExas Counties went from ONE BUCK ONLY to four deer. How is that good for the age structure or health of the herd or whatever?

I don't propose a counter solution to a problem that never existed in the first place.

What counties do you hunt in? How long in each?

Red River 20+; Fannin 25, Archer/Baylor 8-9; Foard 2; Real 3-4, and every Hill Country county at least once I think...

Even if you dont agree with the ARs the way they are now the fact of the matter is that most places (escpecially in east Texas) have way too many hunters shooting way too many deer...

Its too bad that the state is having to regulate how hunters hunt in order to keep a quality hunting experience in those areas but that is the way it is. I would say that there is going to be more strict regs spreading across Texas since we (the hunters) cant seem to regulate ourselves.

Sig we are in agreement. One thing you say is absolutely right about the redneck mentality. It is very difficult to control and they will overconsume the resource just because they can. I once again am not pro AR and think it is sad that it has to be and think that it will limit the herds potential. As we speak a great looking 2.5 year old 13'' 8 pt is being gutted somewhere. i believe in shooting mature deer. I hunt under MLD in Jack and Young counties, Coleman county non AR and Own a place in Harrison county that I don't hunt because the $%^#@ neighbors may shoot me on the way to the stand. Just because the state says the limit is x does not mean that is what we should shoot. But some people will and that hurts the experience for everyone. East Texas counties with smaller tracts also have the problem of overhunting. I normally hunt on 1300 acres with 4 guns. Tags are issued after survey and we follow harvest reccomendations, I will say we rarely get the doe done. A 400 acre lease in East Texas with 4 guns and family shooting can cause a mess. That would be like 12 guns on our place and add a few brother in law deer you can shoot the hell out of a place quick. I do agree that the 2 buck thing leaves the door open for shooting young deer also and could completely understand going to one buck in certain areas. And don't think all of this is an east Texas problem, we are covered up with it out here as well. I am amazed that a button buck out here ever makes it.