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Do bullets matter? #10310 12/01/04 06:03 PM
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cody Offline OP
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I've been reading alot of these posts lately about people losing deer. They never mention what type of bullet they were using. I've been shooting 140gr ballistic silvertips out of my 7mag. I've found that it devastates deer and instantly kills them with a lung or heart shot. However, I've shot does in the head before with the same bullet and on two seperate occasions the bullet simply destroyed the jaw or nose and did not kill the deer. I recovered both deer but could not believe that they were not dispatched immediately. I'm now a believer that if you're going to try an experimental or untraditional shot you'd better have a bullet that sticks together. Unless you're willing to injure or lose a deer. Any thoughts?


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: cody] #10311 12/01/04 06:26 PM
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Ballistic tips are awesome with fast cartridges. I have had my greatest success with my 270 using 140 grain BTips from 25 yards to 300 yards. In the old days, I had deer run very far if they were shot close in.

Seems like your head shot problem is more an issue of bullet placement. head shots are tough because the target (brain) is only about 2 or 3 inches in diameter. If you had hit the deer in the brain, he would have gone down, but it's a small target. Stick with heart lung and you'll have the devastating results that you expect. The deer may run a bit, but wont go far.


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: Brownwood] #10312 12/01/04 06:39 PM
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Shot one in the end of the nose as she was looking at me. I've done this before with corelokt ammunition and had no problem. With a solid less "explosive" bullet I've had no trouble. I'm simply trying to make known the possiblility of losing game using more expandable bullets in throat, head, and other "imaginative" shots.


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: cody] #10313 12/01/04 07:28 PM
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I just shoot regular old Winchester 130gr. bullets from my .270 and put the crosshairs right behind the shoulder....game over

Never have understood why people shoot the nece/head area, but to each his own.



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Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: cody] #10314 12/01/04 09:22 PM
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Yes bullet construction matters more than speed. Accuracy is more important than either speed or bullet construction and more deer are lost to poor shot placement than to anything else...and should be an embarrasement to the shooter.
Nosler BT type bullets have a reputation for being extremely accurate but somewhat unreliable on game, especially at velocities over 3000fps and close in shots. Nosler has come out with another bullet called an AccuBond to try and resolve the problem..dunno anything about them but I have had a BT failure on a desert Mulie at 35 yards and 3400fps muzzle velocity. Too fast and Too close to do the job the bullet was designed for.
I also have gone back to lead tipped spitzer type game bullets for WT sized animals. If I was hunting Elk, moose or brown bear I'd be shooting Nosler Partitions or another one of the deep penetrating slow expansion bullets like a Bear Claw, Barnes Triple Shock, A Frame etc but my Speer flat base HotCor's, Grand Slams and Sierra Game Kings do a nice job of expansion on Texas sized WT's and hogs out of my 270 and 300Wmg.
Bullet placement on head shots is critical and the imaginary line that runs level from the rear corner of the eye and bisects the line from the base of the earhole looking sideways at a deer is one of my favored shots on doe deer. I also like a frontal top of the head shot from an elevated stand on feeding doe deer centered between and just behind the eyes in front of the ears to hit that Tennis ball sized brain...the bullet passes thru the brain and out thru the throat for a clean kill and no ruined neck roasts.
If you can't reliably hit a tennis ball at whatever distance you are taking the shot from then don't take the shot..period. Go try it in the off season out of your stand and you will see just how hard that shot really is. Then hang a tennis ball from a tree limb and let the wind move it around and try and hit it from over 150 yards... try it again with a 9" pie plate that is the kill zone sized target for a properly placed heart lung body shot.
I started years ago with a BB gun in the back yard and it took me forever to hit the ball more than 1 out of 5 shots at over 10 yards much less a 100 yards..or a ping pong ball at 20 yards with a BB gun. Throw out a ping pong ball or tennis ball on the ground and make it walk with a BB gun or 22 shooting offhand...easier said than done!
Facing a deer on level ground with no quartering angle I hold for the spot where the "cowlick" spot of fur comes together on the bottom third of the chest, once again a tennis ball sized target for a clean kill. Think about a three dimesional target for the placement of a heart shot. From the side at a 90* angle at distances over 150 yards I like a base of the neck where the spinal cord joins the body to not below the cowlick or the tennis ball sized depression area just behind the shoulder at the elbow fro a thru and thru behind the front shoulders....understand I'm not shooting a teeny tiny bullet but a 150 gr 270 or 180-200 gr 300 Wmg. I don't lose many deer...and have not lost any in the last 15-20 years. Quartering away from me over 150 yards I'll place the bullet in the same elbow spot, or just in front of the hip and behind the ribs with the angle sharp enough so that either bullet placement will pass in front of the off front shoulder with both shots being a heart lung shot, under 150 yards and with the deer stock still quartered away from me, the aimpoint is the base of the head underneath the ears on line with the eye socket at some point in a semi circle from earhole to earhole.

I am capable of making these shots and have made them all of my life once I spent the necessary time to learn to shoot accurately with equipment capable of making whatever shot I choose. If the shot is not there for whatever reason...I let the animal walk away...period.
I take these kinds of shots so I don't waste any meat anywhere on the carcass. After I cracked a tooth on a piece of bone shrapnel from a point of the shoulder side to side shot when I first started hunting 40 years ago I promised myself I'd never have to throw away the front half of a deer ever again ...and haven't.
The back third of the head is the kill zone and is really about the size of my fist or a tiny bit larger maybe as big as a softball or a little smaller on most does. The front two thirds of the deers head is not a kill zone period and is to be avoided no matter what except on a 180* from behind head shot on a stock still animal under 150 yards and the the point of aim is the imaginary line about 2 1/2" below the crown of the animals head and even with the base of her ears...preferably perfectly centered in the height of the front edge of the ear opening.

I can count the number of "wish" shots I taken on one hand and missed but I still practice about 50-60 rounds of live ammo of the same brand and weight that I intend to hunt with and dry fire twice that every year so I can respect the animal with my best effort at trigger discipline and breath control.... anything less than my best effort is an insult to the animal and to me and I don't take or give insults lightly or easily.
Many many years ago I had an experienced combat sniper tell me to concentrate on shooting not just the "center mass kill zone" of a target but to pick which button on his shirt I wanted to hit no matter what the distance...that it the concentration on the finite little "targets" like a shirt button or wrinkle in the skin or white spot of a scar and to think three diminsionally about the vital organs that was the key to better bullet placement. Think about it, don't aim for the whole critter but try and shoot the tick off his neck!! JMHO
Ron



It is TIME for Term Limits, cause Politicians are like childrens diapers and for the same reasons...Robin Williams

"These are the times that try men's soul's"...Thomas Paine

"Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it" ....Santayana
Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: WileyCoyote] #10315 12/02/04 02:00 AM
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Quote:

Yes bullet construction matters more than speed. Accuracy is more important than either speed or bullet construction and more deer are lost to poor shot placement than to anything else...and should be an embarrasement to the shooter.
Nosler BT type bullets have a reputation for being extremely accurate but somewhat unreliable on game, especially at velocities over 3000fps and close in shots. Nosler has come out with another bullet called an AccuBond to try and resolve the problem..dunno anything about them but I have had a BT failure on a desert Mulie at 35 yards and 3400fps muzzle velocity. Too fast and Too close to do the job the bullet was designed for.
I also have gone back to lead tipped spitzer type game bullets for WT sized animals. If I was hunting Elk, moose or brown bear I'd be shooting Nosler Partitions or another one of the deep penetrating slow expansion bullets like a Bear Claw, Barnes Triple Shock, A Frame etc but my Speer flat base HotCor's, Grand Slams and Sierra Game Kings do a nice job of expansion on Texas sized WT's and hogs out of my 270 and 300Wmg.
Bullet placement on head shots is critical and the imaginary line that runs level from the rear corner of the eye and bisects the line from the base of the earhole looking sideways at a deer is one of my favored shots on doe deer. I also like a frontal top of the head shot from an elevated stand on feeding doe deer centered between and just behind the eyes in front of the ears to hit that Tennis ball sized brain...the bullet passes thru the brain and out thru the throat for a clean kill and no ruined neck roasts.
If you can't reliably hit a tennis ball at whatever distance you are taking the shot from then don't take the shot..period. Go try it in the off season out of your stand and you will see just how hard that shot really is. Then hang a tennis ball from a tree limb and let the wind move it around and try and hit it from over 150 yards... try it again with a 9" pie plate that is the kill zone sized target for a properly placed heart lung body shot.
I started years ago with a BB gun in the back yard and it took me forever to hit the ball more than 1 out of 5 shots at over 10 yards much less a 100 yards..or a ping pong ball at 20 yards with a BB gun. Throw out a ping pong ball or tennis ball on the ground and make it walk with a BB gun or 22 shooting offhand...easier said than done!
Facing a deer on level ground with no quartering angle I hold for the spot where the "cowlick" spot of fur comes together on the bottom third of the chest, once again a tennis ball sized target for a clean kill. Think about a three dimesional target for the placement of a heart shot. From the side at a 90* angle at distances over 150 yards I like a base of the neck where the spinal cord joins the body to not below the cowlick or the tennis ball sized depression area just behind the shoulder at the elbow fro a thru and thru behind the front shoulders....understand I'm not shooting a teeny tiny bullet but a 150 gr 270 or 180-200 gr 300 Wmg. I don't lose many deer...and have not lost any in the last 15-20 years. Quartering away from me over 150 yards I'll place the bullet in the same elbow spot, or just in front of the hip and behind the ribs with the angle sharp enough so that either bullet placement will pass in front of the off front shoulder with both shots being a heart lung shot, under 150 yards and with the deer stock still quartered away from me, the aimpoint is the base of the head underneath the ears on line with the eye socket at some point in a semi circle from earhole to earhole.

I am capable of making these shots and have made them all of my life once I spent the necessary time to learn to shoot accurately with equipment capable of making whatever shot I choose. If the shot is not there for whatever reason...I let the animal walk away...period.
I take these kinds of shots so I don't waste any meat anywhere on the carcass. After I cracked a tooth on a piece of bone shrapnel from a point of the shoulder side to side shot when I first started hunting 40 years ago I promised myself I'd never have to throw away the front half of a deer ever again ...and haven't.
The back third of the head is the kill zone and is really about the size of my fist or a tiny bit larger maybe as big as a softball or a little smaller on most does. The front two thirds of the deers head is not a kill zone period and is to be avoided no matter what except on a 180* from behind head shot on a stock still animal under 150 yards and the the point of aim is the imaginary line about 2 1/2" below the crown of the animals head and even with the base of her ears...preferably perfectly centered in the height of the front edge of the ear opening.

I can count the number of "wish" shots I taken on one hand and missed but I still practice about 50-60 rounds of live ammo of the same brand and weight that I intend to hunt with and dry fire twice that every year so I can respect the animal with my best effort at trigger discipline and breath control.... anything less than my best effort is an insult to the animal and to me and I don't take or give insults lightly or easily.
Many many years ago I had an experienced combat sniper tell me to concentrate on shooting not just the "center mass kill zone" of a target but to pick which button on his shirt I wanted to hit no matter what the distance...that it the concentration on the finite little "targets" like a shirt button or wrinkle in the skin or white spot of a scar and to think three diminsionally about the vital organs that was the key to better bullet placement. Think about it, don't aim for the whole critter but try and shoot the tick off his neck!! JMHO
Ron




Damn. Did your fingers get tired? That's the longest post I've ever seen on here. That would have taken me a couple of hours the way I search and peck.



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Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: babyarm] #10316 12/02/04 02:11 AM
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Baby Arm..

Wylie is an authority...let me tell you..that is short in comparison to the post I made about boats on the TFF.. He helped me a great deal with lots of good info, not about one brand being better, but a comparison.

Simply stated the man is a wealth of information on boats, guns, ammo,,,etc... Now, I do not want to swell his head, but I know him and can compliment him...and believe me he types fast, almost as fast as he talks....

If there were only one person to ask a question about a gun, or a bullet...I would call him....too many years in the business and a lot of knowledge.

He knows of what he speaks........




Looking to buy or sell Real Estate anywhere? Let me know, I can help. Just email me steven.bradbury@cbdfw.com
Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: babyarm] #10317 12/02/04 05:20 AM
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Aw shucks If'n I could lern to use more than just two fingers I might do'em better'n that! That post took about 45 minutes.

BA, Last week I was at Barbers in Dallas and got questioned by a green horn about shot placement and so on...so I gave the guy a lesson in anatomy using the two life sized mounted deer they have on display.
All I was doing in the post was replaying that conversation from last week based on my experiences going back to the early 60's. It really is easy to visulize stuff when you can see the real life size critter and realize exactly what goes where and why.
I have hunted WT's for 40 years, handloaded for over 35 years and rep'ed for and managed up to 11 sales reps for a sporting goods distributor and later worked for a firearms importer as a regional factory rep for a total of 12 almost 13 years in the firearms industry, and used to to shoot over 3000 rounds of centerfire rifle a year.
While I love to fish... hunting quality bolt action rifles are my first love...and I have owned or shot couple hundred centerfire rifles in my time so far. After a while you begin to have definitive opinions on what worked, felt right, looked good to you ...or didn't work and maybe why.

Never ...I repeat never ask me what time it is everyone in my family will tell you....'cause I've been known to talk a wall deaf LOL!!!

I got in the boat business for a little while in the mid/late 90's after closing my gift and linens showroom in the Dallas World Trade Center and looked at getting back in the Marine side of the Rep biz so I studied and researched what was what, who the players were, and why what was selling since I had been inside half a dozen boat plants over the last 7-8 years during my travels all over the country at the time ... and decided "Nah I ain't gonna do that again at my age...I'm traveling this time on my schedule since it's my nickel and I'll show up when I get there"...I'm getting more and more cantankerous in my dotage.

I seem to be more and more like my grandfather as I not so gracefully age, who willed himself thru his last hunt at age 77 in Alaska for carabou...dragging the bum leg he'd had since he was 28 and a broken neck since he was 32 that happened in seperate accidents ...but the old man still had the urge until he couldn't see to hit anymore at the self imposed benchmark of 300 yards with the poor quality by todays standards scoped rifles ...that was the only time I ever saw the old man cry when he realized he couldn't pull his own weight with a rifle anymore.
He had beaten me one time when I was 21 with his cane because I didn't kill a squirel with EVERY 22 bullet he'd given me..so we went hungry for a couple days on that camping trip to prove the point. Homer B Wyatt died a year later after that last hunting trip to Alaska due to a botched surgery's peritonitis infection that killed him while his 5th wife held his hand...he'd outlived two and divorced two... he'd postponed the surgery for one last salmon trip back in Alaska too long and couldn't survive the butcher's job the surgeon did on his cancerous prostate. "Nobody lives forever ...so we MUST make the best of every day and be of service to each other anyway possible". Pop Wyatt's words not mine.
"Let your breath ALL the way out ...hold it...and SQUEEZE the trigger until you feel the surprise when the gun goes off..." like it was yesterday I hear those words.
Ron


Last edited by WileyCoyote; 12/02/04 05:39 AM.

It is TIME for Term Limits, cause Politicians are like childrens diapers and for the same reasons...Robin Williams

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Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: WileyCoyote] #10318 12/02/04 11:36 AM
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I didn't mean any disrespect. I was just commenting on how much typing you did in that post. I probably would never post anything that long because it would take me forever to type it. I am sure your very knowledgable about this subject and when I have any questions, I'll be certain to PM you.



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Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: babyarm] #10319 12/02/04 01:15 PM
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Crazyhorse here, my computers still broke so Lora is letting use hers. I am going to keep this posting short. I sight in with almost anything, all of my work bullets, something I intend to shoot game with, are Barnes "X", I am fixing to switch over to the Triple-Shocks.


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: campcook] #10320 12/02/04 01:38 PM
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Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: Bradbury] #10321 12/02/04 04:15 PM
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Shaddup Steve and stop grinnin'!! See there I can too say sumpin' in a dozen words!!LOL
Ron


Last edited by WileyCoyote; 12/02/04 04:19 PM.

It is TIME for Term Limits, cause Politicians are like childrens diapers and for the same reasons...Robin Williams

"These are the times that try men's soul's"...Thomas Paine

"Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it" ....Santayana
Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: WileyCoyote] #10322 12/02/04 04:27 PM
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I agree with all of that. Even though my eyes are crossing from reading it. I learned my lesson years ago as to shot placement. I just thought this would be good info for everyone new to the hunting world. Thank you Wiley for the extensive analysis and explanation.


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: cody] #10323 12/03/04 12:51 PM
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Wow, I am loving this! I was trained as a sniper with the Army back in the early 80s and have tinkered with rifles, calibers and bullets ever since. I now only take high % heart lung shots and occasionally a neck shot. All of this probably can be summed up with the adage, "aim small, miss small".


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: cody] #10324 12/06/04 07:07 PM
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I think yes bullets do matter but like others here I feel
like if you might be presented with nothing but a poor target picture such as quartering away or in heavy brush you
might lean towards a flat based soft point or spire point
that will not blow up on impact. Also remember to practice
shooting off-hand without a rest as this may be your only shot at times. I have been hunting for over 40 years now and
I still have to make myself calm down and regain composure
when a nice buck suddenly appears and that little bit of time has cost me several shots not taken over the years.
For long range shots I used the Nosler BT's back in the
1990's a lot and all resulted in dead deer not far from POI.
All those shots were heart/lung with massive internal damage
and rarely a pass through. For the last few years I have been handloading 154 Hornady Interlocks which work better on
closer targets with less meat damage and often pass through.
Pick that "spot" on the animal is the best advice I know of
if you don't like tracking jobs. I have slowed down the velocity on most of my handloads in favor of accuracy and I
believe the bullets perform better than full-house loads which exceed the bullet's construction limits. I don't shoot
factory loads anymore although back in the 60's and 70's that was all I had and I managed to take deer, turkey, hogs,
and varmints every year with Win power points and Rem corelockts. They are all good if placed properly! Sorry for
being so long winded.


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: txtravlr] #10325 12/10/04 01:23 AM
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Anybody have experience with Winchester Supreme?
I recently shot a nice-sized buck using 130 grain Winchester Supreme in 270. The box says "Power Point Plus - High Velocity" and "Rapid, Controlled expansion". The deer was facing me, so the shot was straight-on, right between the briskets, from about 160-170 yards. The shot destroyed the upper half of the heart, blew one lung to shreds, and I was able to trace it into the right hind-quarter. When I bought the 270, plenty of people said that a 270 would drop them in their tracks. This is my first kill with the 270 and he ran about 70 yards. When I found him, the first thing I noticed was that there was no exit wound. I thought, "cool, now I can see what the slug looks like." Well, upon butchering him, I was able to trace the path from front to back, and even found the bullet hole in the rear leg, but never found the bullet. I also noticed that the hole in the leg was the same size at the bullet...so it never expanded, even though it travelled the length of the body.
Just curious what others' results have been or what y'all think about this ammo. Thanks.


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: jacdan] #10326 12/10/04 06:53 PM
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Of course bullets matter, your gun ain't much without them!


Sorry, had to.


Re: Do bullets matter? [Re: coachmup] #10327 12/11/04 11:46 AM
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I shoot Rem Express Cor-Lokts

Plain; No Frills Bullets. 130gr 270win; Rem should do just fine. Pointed soft point Cor-Lokt

http://www.remington.com/ammo/centerfire/express_corelokt.htm




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