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some of my favorite game birds to hunt were brought in from other countries. chukar and pheasants. i think i read once this was back in the 40s. why cant the southern states that lost much of the bobwhites reintrduce another game bird that will thrive in our climate if there is such a thing. like what kind of game birds are there where the fire ants come from originally.... was it south america? |
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I cannot think of a single upland bird that thrives where land/habitat have been fragmented along with urban sprawl. These circumstances are much more problematic for upland birds than fire-ants. Chukar, quail, and pheasants don’t live in Chicago, NYC, LA, or DC. There are no fire-ants in any of those locations and yet there are no wild birds either. I would imagine that it must be pretty hard to nest and rear a clutch of birds next to a fire hydrant, light pole, or parking garage all on asphalt or concrete. Just a thought…… |
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Not trying to start a religious thread here, just passing on some information. gspbrad hit the nail on the head, bobwhites evolved into and with the habitat, as have all game birds. Some birds, such as Ringneck Pheasants have been able to be introduced into areas very far from where they originated, and in some instances it worked, in many it didn't. As for the situation with the fireants, it has to be remembered that the fireants had predators themselves and were not the problem in their native country that they are here. Hungarian Partridge have been tried with limited success, and chukars do well in specific type habitats(parts of the Rocky Mountains). With bobwhites, along with the fireant problem, there is the fragmentation and modifacations of their habitat, along with increased numbers of mammalian predators, feral housecats and feral hogs. Combine all of that with the fact that bobwhites are "Hard-Wired" when it comes to optimum habitat requirements. While some on here will most adamantly disagree, several researchers feel that the bobwhite quail as a huntable, wild population is going to become extinct. The birds will still be around, due to the numbers raised in captivity. |
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Well said by gspbrad and crazyhorse...
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It's basically a mess. What was said is true. Land being cut up everywhere. But, guess what boys-it's not just quail-it's all reptiles. No more bullfrogs, turtles, horntoads, big black wasp nests in every tree, honeybees, jackrabbits, cottontails, etc.(water snakes) |
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Bob whites however are suffering over the whole range, continent wide. I feel really lucky in that during the last two weekends I have seen a half dozen or so pairs of Bob's, and even heard a bird calling this afternoon right behind our house which is just a few miles south of Azle. In fact, we have been living here for 10 years now and there has been one or two pair of Bob's in the vicinty since we moved in. State wide however, some of the species you named are growing in numbers or have stable populations. Bob whites on the other hand are diminishing in numbers in the wild Nationwide. Even without all the predators and the fireant threat, it may be a case of Bob whites not being able to adapt to the environmental changes taking place in their habitat, fast enough to rebuild their populations. JASWAG! |
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Wouldn't say the W Tex counties have urban sprawl, more like less people now than before and their bobwhites are way down. Hard to say why besides rain at the right times and over grazing. There are plenty of rabbits to go around out there. No shortage of them. |
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Guess we better get used to Dove hunting only. Or, there's Killdee. All white meat.
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1. Brooding Cover 2. Nesting Cover 3. Roosting Cover 5. Food 4. Escape Cover from aerials Farming practice fence to fence is a big part of problem. Loss of cultivated land /food source is a big problem in my opinion. 60 to 80% of some counties went into CRP grass in the 1980s and these lands have turned barren to quail for food source. Get your land owner to talk to ASC about the problem and manage the land for quail. Most just let it set in grass with no seed crop for quail. There are several financial program to help with management of lands. And the CRP can be broken up into strips of native grass and food plots for wildlife. They will even pay you for the set asid strips and planting in other benefical grasses. Quail will abandon over-mature CRP fields When the grass begins to crowd out the legumes and annual seed producing plants (usually 3 to 4 years after establishment), the main benefit is nesting cover. Once the legumes and patches of bare ground disappear, quail will seldom use the field. To keep quail around, manage CRP field to maintain their habitat needs. When you take away 80% of the food source they are gone. BTDT an seen it over and over.
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Excellent post-several years ago I called and suggested paying cash money to farmers or landowners to leave edges along the fences. So many feet-so many acres-gets money. The guy at the state said he had never heard of such a concept-but he said no money is around. (now they are doing it-but very limited) Boys, it's about the money-you pay these landowners more than they can make by planting it and it's a done deal. Money, money, money. |
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My buddies family are life long farmers. They leave large edges and buffers through out the whole pasture. Every 10 or so rows of cotton, they will leave a buffer of natural cover. It makes a big difference. Brings in deer and quail. That being said, two years ago was a bumper quail crop year for most of W. Tex and last year was well below par. |
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Just noticed recently we have a food plot with a feeder on one end.... over the last few months EVERY time we go out there will be a mound of feathers mostly quail and dove in the food plot. I have noticed while sitting in my blind the hawks have been regularly flying by the food plot. The quail and dove love the fresh food plot and the corn feeeder but I think it is making them easy targets for the predators!??? |
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Yes the hawks and predators watch the feeder for an easy meal. Set up a feeder for the Quail. Move the feeder to heavy brush and protect feeder area with chicken wire mesh. I know it ruins it for deer but you cant have both from same type feeder. |
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This is just one of the programs that can be used. Check with Quail Unlimited and Noble Organization for more. Wildlife Habitat Incentives Program (WHIP) The USDA, Natural Resources Conservation Service administers this program. WHIP is a technical and financial assistance program that reimburses up to 75 percent of eligible expenses incurred by a landowner for the development of wildlife habitat specified in an approved application. Maximum reimbursement cannot exceed $25,000. Quail Management on Small Acreages Deterioration and fragmentation of bobwhite habitat are the primary causes of the bobwhite decline throughout the United States. Fragmentation is the process where habitat elimination separates or isolates remaining areas of habitat. Recent scientific information indicates quail populations may need enough contiguous habitat to support at least 800 quail to prevent localized extinction over the long term. The area required to support 800 quail probably ranges from 800 to 8,000 acres, depending upon the quality of the habitat. "Most landowners interested in quail do not own several thousand acres of habitat, so should they give up? No, quail management is not hopeless, but it is not easy either," explained Mike Porter, a wildlife specialist with the Ardmore-based Noble Foundation. "A landowner with a relatively small tract, such as 160 acres, should manage the tract so every bit of it, or at least as much as possible, is quail habitat. A 160-acre tract with 50 acres of oak woodlot, 60 acres of Bermuda grass, 40 acres of wheat, and 10 acres of native rangeland does not have 160 acres of quail habitat. In fact, this quarter section has very little quail habitat." Ideal quail habitat has 5 to 15 percent woody canopy cover well distributed across the landscape, with mostly brushy woody cover rather than timber. It has no locations where quail could venture farther than 100 yards from woody cover. The herbaceous plant community is dominated by native plants rather than introduced species. More than 250 clumps of native bunch grasses exist per acre. Forbs are abundant. Canopy cover of herbaceous plants ranges from 25 to 75 percent, with most herbaceous plants 10 to 20 inches tall. Underneath the canopy of woody and herbaceous plants, 30 to 60 percent of the ground is bare (lacking plant thatch or stems). The amount of quail habitat present on a tract of land depends on how much of the land matches this description. "Quail management should primarily address cover issues, such as woody cover, herbaceous cover, and ground cover," Porter said. "These cover types should be managed primarily through tools such as appropriate grazing, rest, and prescribed burning. In some cases, tillage and brush control can be practical tools for managing cover as well." "Quail food is generally not a limiting factor when native plant communities are managed for appropriate cover," Porter continued. "In fact, food seldom limits quail populations. Drought, heat, snow, subfreezing temperatures, lack of adequate cover, or excessive cover usually limit quail populations. Providing quail food may attract more quail to a small area, which may be useful for hunting or observational purposes, but probably will not cause the area to produce more quail." If a 160-acre tract exists among neighbors with adequate quantity and quality of quail habitat, well-managed habitat on the tract should provide reasonable quail numbers during years with average to good quail abundance. If the tract is an island because the neighborhood has poor quail habitat, or if low rainfall and hot temperatures cause poor quail abundance, habitat management alone on the quarter section often provides less than optimum results. To provide adequate quail abundance for hunting in this latter situation, managers may have to stock quail. "Working with neighbors to form a wildlife management association is an option to create an adequate quantity and quality of quail habitat in the neighborhood," Porter said. "A successful wildlife management association can be quite a challenge. The primary challenge in such an association is people management, not necessarily wildlife management. It can be difficult to convince neighbors to work together toward common goals. However, the potential rewards are great." Hunting pressure is an important issue and should be managed on small acreages. Quail populations on relatively small tracts of land are somewhat delicate. Hunting pressure probably should not exceed twenty-eight man-hours of hunting per 100 acres during each hunting season, which is not a lot of hunting. "For example, it represents one person hunting for twenty-eight hours, two people for fourteen hours, or seven people for four hours," Porter said. "Generally, quail harvest should not exceed 30 percent of a fall population. If this amount of hunting opportunity does not satisfy a landowner's quail hunting goals, the wild population should be supplemented with released birds, or the landowner should pursue additional hunting opportunities elsewhere." All released quail and all release techniques are not equal. Some commercially available quail genetics are better adapted for survival in the wild than others. Most important, quail should be raised in isolation, away from contact with humans, dogs, and the like. Isolation is important to obtain adequate performance and survival of released quail because quail domesticate relatively easily. Appropriate release techniques, such as the Anchor Covey System or Smith-O'Neall System, should be employed because they improve survival of released quail relative to some other techniques. "We are all part of a bigger picture. What we do affects others and their actions affect us," Porter said. "Most worthwhile goals in life require work and commitment. In summary, successful quail management on small acreages is possible, but not necessarily easy." ### The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, headquartered in Ardmore, Okla., is a non-profit organization conducting agricultural, forage biotechnological, and plant biology research; providing grants to numerous non-profit charitable, educational and health organizations; and assisting farmers and ranchers through educational and consultative agricultural programs. To learn more, check out the Noble Foundation Web site at http://www.noble.org. |
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at the golf course in midland the other day I saw 4 bobs running around |
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Hunt Snipe!
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feral chickes are on the increase, and pretty tasty fried |
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I hate to sound like I'm writing in another section of the hunting forum but I wonder what the effect of the wild hog population explosion has been on quail. I have no dobt at all that if a pig sniffed out a quails nest, the quails eggs would be made quick work of in short order. Same goes for the young flightless chicks as well. Any thoughs? |
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Feral hogs definitely have an impact on all ground nesting birds. |
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Increased predation on non-target species such as quail is one of the drawbacks to supplemental feeding of deer. The feeders attract quail, but they also attract predators, anything from hogs to coons, to snakes, who can hit the nests pretty hard. Dedicated quail feeders can be put out. There are some available where the birds have to actually go under the feeder to get the feed. Thsi keeps them relatively safe from hawks. Also, if I remember right their normal body temp is something like 106 degrees. If they have to constantly evade predators in the Texas heat, once their temp reaches close to 116 they are pretty much done for, either from over heating or the predator gets them. I could be off on the numbers a little but heat can kill them really quick.
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You are not far off on the Bobwhites body temp., can't remember if it is as high as 106, but if I remember right it is over 100. |
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Gonna get my .02 in here. Kyotee1 should know what the stats on the bobwhite as good as anybody. The main reason for the decline of the bobwhite is habitat. Fire ants has and is having little to do with their decline, according to Texas A&M research and the TP&WD! Predation is also another factor. But habitat is the main cause according to the articles that James has posted here. The first sentence tells all!! Quail Management on Small Acreages Deterioration and fragmentation of bobwhite habitat are the primary causes of the bobwhite decline throughout the United States. Fragmentation is the process where habitat elimination separates or isolates remaining areas of habitat. Recent scientific information indicates quail populations may need enough contiguous habitat to support at least 800 quail to prevent localized extinction over the long term. The area required to support 800 quail probably ranges from 800 to 8,000 acres, depending upon the quality of the habitat. "Most landowners interested in quail do not own several thousand acres of habitat, so should they give up? No, quail management is not hopeless, but it is not easy either," explained Mike Porter, a wildlife specialist with the Ardmore-based Noble Foundation. "A landowner with a relatively small tract, such as 160 acres, should manage the tract so every bit of it, or at least as much as possible, is quail habitat. A 160-acre tract with 50 acres of oak woodlot, 60 acres of Bermuda grass, 40 acres of wheat, and 10 acres of native rangeland does not have 160 acres of quail habitat. In fact, this quarter section has very little quail habitat." Ideal quail habitat has 5 to 15 percent woody canopy cover well distributed across the landscape, with mostly brushy woody cover rather than timber. It has no locations where quail could venture farther than 100 yards from woody cover. The herbaceous plant community is dominated by native plants rather than introduced species. More than 250 clumps of native bunch grasses exist per acre. Forbs are abundant. Canopy cover of herbaceous plants ranges from 25 to 75 percent, with most herbaceous plants 10 to 20 inches tall. Underneath the canopy of woody and herbaceous plants, 30 to 60 percent of the ground is bare (lacking plant thatch or stems). The amount of quail habitat present on a tract of land depends on how much of the land matches this description. No mention of the fire ant anywhere, not even in Texas. Matter of fact the hotter and dryer it gets the less you will see the fire ant. It also has to have a habitat of moisture. |
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Habitat ffragmentation is most prevalent and problematic for quail management and restoration in landscapes where closed canopy hardwoods and pines, exotic grass pastures, large agricultural fields and suburban sprawl have replaced the low intensity, but extensive, farming and forestry of the past. This results in: 1) loss of the original habitat; 2) reduction in size of the remaining habitat fragments; and 3) Increased isolation of remaining habitats from other areas that support quail populations. Land fragmentation and resulting habitat fragmentation has been shown to disrupt dispersal and movements of animals, result in increased predation and nest parasitism, disturb animal social structure and diminish habitat health because natural events such as animal grazing and natural fires are prevented. Something we as steward of the land need to serious consideration is the consequence of the projects at our face right now such as: Wind power, Gas and oil exploration and production, TTC, underground pipelines such as the monster TB Picken water project, and there resultant further fragmentation of prime habitat. Roadways, equipment sites, UG and overhead utilities right of ways. Get with the leasing agents before hand and make them write in agreement for reestablishment of beneficial grass and habit for the wildlife as part of their trepass and surface damage agreement. Take picture before and after and put in a time penalty completion clause. Get with your neighbors and set up coops and guidelines for reestablishment of the prime habitats. There's an energy boom going on in the "oil patch" region of Oklahoma and Texas the likes of which has not been seen in decades. This time around, though, the prize isn't under our feet, it's in the swirling currents above our heads. A rapidly growing number of domestic and international energy companies have targeted western Oklahoma and the Texas panhandle with plans for massive wind farm projects. Nowhere is this more evident than on the sage-covered prairies of northwestern Oklahoma. Hundreds of wind turbines stretch like a giant picket fence across the landscape, towering above the game-rich high plains. At first glance it would seem to be a win-win for both the environment and society ...When it comes to energy production, however, you never get something for nothing. Case in point: as a result of this boom, one of the nation's top public land bobwhite quail hunting destinations may soon be covered with a network of roads, high-tension power lines, and wind turbines. |
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Exactly James, good post.
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Explain the habitat situation in west Texas? I understand how it would effect places that have been broken up like East Texas but not to the extent we see the quail going away in W Tex. My buddies ranch is 2,500 acres in Bosque. It was smaller years ago and they had plenty of quail as well as everyone else did around there. Land frag cannot explain that. They are very involved in quail rehab and it is not the land. Cattle are rotated every three days. Cedars have been removed. Cactus everywhere. No predators. 2 years ago everyone in W Texas had bumber crops of quail. We pushed 20 covies on 400 acres in Hall/Briscoe counties. My buddy plus 1 limited three days in a row in Kent/Dickens. Then last year there were no birds come opener. Land fragmitation did not occur out there and has actually gotten less as people have joined lands. It is rain related 100% it seems. 2 years ago wew got 8 inches of rain in one night. Same year as the bumber crop. No impact. They didn't drown as people like to think. Just my observations here. At my lease in Montague, no land frag occured and quail almost went away in the three years I was there. We would see 2 covies per 160 acres there in 2005. Now nothing. 4,000 plus acre ranch as well we were on and no land owners around us changed. Long time ranchers. |
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Sorry about that mix up, I did not notice that Lora was still Logged-In until after I made the response. ![]() Good post Duckman. ![]() Lora and I hunted 180 acres in northern Montague, between Illinois Bend and Spanish Fort for 13 years and never shot 1 bobwhite the entire time we were there. There was no land fragmentation, yet during that time we saw one covey of birds, between 12 and 18 birds about every 3rd. year. On the middle years, we would not see or hear a single quail, I have no idea of what is going on with the bobwhite, and I know people get tired of my supposed "Chicken Little Attitude", but for the past 10 years , many folks that I feel are in the know on the situation, are still predicting that the wild bobwhite quail as a HUNTABLE species is headed toward extinction. JMO, but I don't think that anyone has a real handle on what is causing the problem |
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CHC, In a lot of ways you are right, but there are a lot of studies that have been done over the state, and the entire home range of the BWQ. There are a few pieces of the puzzle that are fitting in the whole picture. One thing I have noticed in the past 7 years is the conviction that some people talk with when it comes to the demise of BWQ. You hear people say “the fire ants got them all"! Now that is just plain ignorant and there is loads of bio data to back up that statement. The problem with these people that act this way is now their ignorance has turned into stupidity. When you have the wrong answer and have been proven undoubtedly wrong, but still think you are 100% correct... well that is being stupid. I am not calling anyone specific stupid, it just takes a few minutes of listening and comprehensive learning to figure out that, we might not have the exact formula to why the BWQ are falling but we have concrete evidence to what some of the causes are, and most of the proven ones are never even talked about.
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It is a combination of things that is causing the problem, but the real answer lies with the birds themselves. With all the other factors, feral hogs/fireants/feral house cats/changes in climate/habitat fragmentation/changes in land use, it might simply be possible that without the influx of new birds into some of these areas, the genetics has weakened the remaining birds to the point that fewer chicks overall and fewer healthy chicks overall, are living long enough to be recruited back into the local population. One reason that I have suggested before as to why some of the possible problems are not talked about or mentioned, is simply because they are the ones that can not be corrected. JMO, and if you are calling me stupid, you ain't the first and you won't be the last , at least you didn't add S.O.B. to it like Lora does!
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No, the real answer doesn't lie with the birds themselves!! It lies with their habitat and not having enough to eat and drink and raise their chicks. This isn't an opinion but a real live study taking place as we speak! Again, I didn't write this so maybe some of you will believe it!! How many times does it have to be posted for it to sink in? ![]() Quail Management on Small Acreages Deterioration and fragmentation of bobwhite habitat are the primary causes of the bobwhite decline throughout the United States. Fragmentation is the process where habitat elimination separates or isolates remaining areas of habitat. Recent scientific information indicates quail populations may need enough contiguous habitat to support at least 800 quail to prevent localized extinction over the long term. The area required to support 800 quail probably ranges from 800 to 8,000 acres, depending upon the quality of the habitat. Now, why try to make anything else out of this??? Yes, predation is part of the decline but it doesn't mention fire ants AT ALL!!! Zilch.
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I ain't argueing with you about this Benny. It is a proven fact with all species, that once the number of individuals in the population, in any given area, drops below a certain point, and no new genetics are introduced into that population to revitalize it, the population will and does die out. There has to be an infusion on new blood on a fairly regular basis, usually by new birds/animals moving in from other areas. If there are no birds/animals close enough to facilitate that influx of new genetics, the remnant population will over time die out, fact of life. Also, any body that does not believe that fire ants have not played a role in the decline of bobwhites over parts of the range, especially in the south eastern areas, from south and east Texas to Florida, is turning a blind eye to the issue. No, fire ants are not totally to blame, but neither are they totally blameless, it is a cumulative effect. Habitat is fragmenented, bird numbers are reduced, and concentrated in smaller areas, so that any depredation, by any vector is magnified, as is disease. |
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I am not trying to but in here on CHC and cool hands IFL, but I wish you would both read what the other is saying, because both of you are saying the same thing. Cool hand you are right with the defragmenting, CHC if the land is fragmented then there are no travel corridors for the quail to move free with out the dangers from above, ground level and below. How is the new blood going to come into the area if it can not establish safe passage? I truly believe that the fire ant is the biggest B.S. in history. If they where able to wipe out one of the largest and most dense populations in Texas, the post oak region, then how on gods green earth have they survived them at all in S. Texas. |
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If you will notice, I have said, and will continue to say, that ANY amount of depredation by fire ants on the fragmented and reduced quail population, IS GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT. Notice your own statement: Quote: No one including me is saying that Fire Ants are the NUMBER 1 reason bobwhite numbers are down, but to say that they have no effect at all is totally ludicrous. As someone that has lost more than one clutch of turkey/chicken/guinea eggs to fire ants when the eggs pipped, I feel that fire ants are not going to avoid a bobwhite nest. As someone that for several years tried to save white tail fawns that were brought to the zoo, because they were picked up covered in fire ants, NO ONE can convince me ever that fire ants do not prey on quail nests/chicks and adult birds when roosting on the ground. I know people that were raising exotic pheasants down in the Robstown area that lost adult birds to fire ants when the birds were on the roost at night. IMO, saying that fire ants have no impact on quail populations in some areas of their range, is equivelent to saying that coyotes have no impact on fawn numbers. As I have said before on this subject, one of the reasons the "Experts" dismiss the effect of fire ants, is simply because they know that there is NO way to control or eradicate fire ant numbers. To claim that fire ants are the reason for the decline of Bobwhites in areas, where there are no fire ants is ludicrous at the highest degree. To completely dismiss fire ants as a causitive agent in areas where bobwhites and fire ants occur together is just as ludicrous. |
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My opinion comes strictly from many years of observation of quail in West TX. We have always had a natural rise and fall of our quail population, with cycles of 3 to 5 years. Most of the time disease seems to be the culprit, with weather coming in number 2. Bob Whites used to be the primary bird for this area, but the Blues have pretty much taken over with ratio’s running 75/25. The actual population numbers haven’t changed but the BW/B ratio sure has. So what happen? Once again this is just my opinion, but I put most of the blame on CRP. Land that normally would have been worked every year, providing at least 1 crop and as many as 2 per year, now provide nothing, not even good cover. There was a time not long ago when everybody put in some type of feed. Milo fields would stretch for miles, Sandhill Cranes were here by the thousands, and the edges of these fields were covered in Bob Whites. Even in tough years, hit by disease and drought, these were the sanctuary area’s where they could make they’re recovery’s. Since the advent of CRP, these areas have long disappeared, and so has the Bob White’s ability to quickly recover from these normal cycles. The Blue’s don’t depend on cover as much and seem to prefer broken and more open terrain and natural food sources, with little dependence on planted crops, thus giving them the advantage during trying times. Giving them the upper hand when it comes to dominate species. |
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Thank you TXPH.
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CHC, I am not trying to change your mind on anything, everyone knows it would be easier to easy the worlds pain than change one of your thoughts. I will say that until we start campaigning together as a nation and fallowing the lead of or bio data. NOTHING will change. It is easer to blame the ants than our farming practices. It is easier to blame the droughts than the people that soaked up money from farm bill, for land labeled as CRP, and do nothing that the programs suggest. Texas is loosing CRP at a rapid rate. This is not because of the corn saga, but because people are not managing the properties as outline in the CRP management plan and their contract, (FACT). If you want to see a rising success story you need to look at Missouri. They my friend are on the route of recovery and we are still sitting around crying over the ants. |
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CHC, just a personal question. What have you personally done to assist in the recovery of the BWQ. What programs are you working with, what land owners are you talking and directing to better management plans? What state, independent or Fed biologists are you working with. |
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Quote: And thats a bad thing? |
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Yes sir it is, If land owners would do the management of the CRP, it would be habitat that would aid in the BWQ recovery. Unfortunately the land is let go and the mass under thatch and invasive noxious weeds (Johnson grass, Alamo switch grass, etc) become more detrimental that helpful. I agree with you that farming can aid and help support wildlife, but modern practice has become a slaughter ground for quail not a helping hand. Look at the limited farming in S Texas. Land owners that are promoting the quail are working more to nesting habitat, native grass lands, roller chopping bush and clearing thickets to incorporate a 50-50 Mott. In the right hand CRP is very effective, lots of states are having over whelming success, but the manage it!!!!! |
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Quote: What management are they required to do? What management are they allowed to do? What is the proper mangement of CRP? |
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I'll agree with both you and TXPH, Mike. I was looking at some of the area yesterday as J.R. and I were looking for feeders and we used to run cattle on that particular area and now we don't! The grasses are so high that its not a good habitat for quail. Its actually dangerous for their survival as they cannot escape predators easly. |
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With all managed lands, the game plan will depend on each piece of land. But here are some brief overviews of management tools and why they are used.. BURN PLAN - This is one of the most useful and beneficial tools and one of the most under used tools. Yearly rotational burning of your managed lands in sections or portions allows for several growth stages of an ecosystem to be taking place in a smaller area. The years of thatch is cleared away and turned into nitrogen that jump starts the grasses and forbs the coming spring. This is also one of the best ways to get a jump start on controlling noxious or nuisance weeds. Literally you can write a book on the pros of a burn plan so I will let it go there. It is my opinion and experience that most people do not burn because it dose take some foot work to get the burn going LEGALY. But it really is not all that bad; most Vol. fire dept. will assist with burns as practice and equipment tests, dozer lanes can be acquired by finding people that lease the equipment to the FED. Forest Service, these people are required to practice dozer lines and keep hours logged on equipment. So a little diesel and a 12 pack can go a long way with the right guy. Food plots, having the right food and cover can come in one package, researching your area and soil type will allow for you to pick quality food and cove. Rule #1 with BWQ is they must have clump grass, be it Big Blue, Little Blue, Indian, Kline, it dose not matter this is the first and most important key. Water- guzzlers are one of the best investments people can make. They are simple to build and maintain and will provide the much needed water to all wildlife. ALL CRP have management plans written for each CRP plot. If you want to see what the management plan for a plot is contact your local NRCS office, they will have it. If you want to develop a more productive plan, contact your local TPWD biologist and they will come out and help write you a new plan. To change some of or add to some of the provisions of a CRP plot you need to meet with the local NRCS, tell them your goals, show them the plan and they will try to adapt as many of your new tools to the existing plan. |
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Nicely put, thanks.
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Not one thing. I live on a five acre tract that has one pair and sometimes one covey of bobwhites on it, and I do leave brush piles for the rabbits and that remnant group of bobs, and our sheep keep the buffalo grass cropped down so that the killdeers and other birds feel comfortable nesting and raising their young. To add to that, I have not killed a bobwhite quail in about 30 years. Sorry that may not or does not meet your requirements, deal with it. I do however try to keep up on what is going on with our native wildlife, there for I have an opinion, and I too can remember how things used to be with bobwhites at least in Young county. I also stay in touch with friends that own land in Young county that are trying to get the numbers of bobwhites built back up. In fact the last time I was out on one of their properties I saw four different pairs of bobs, the most bobs I have seen in about 5 years, anywhere. Now, since that probably does not meet with your lofty ideas of what I should be doing, than I do apologise for commenting on the things I have observed over the 40+ years I have been hunting, and for reading the data that researchers gather and publish on such issues. From what I am seeing however, is that some folks are saying there is a bright future, and others are being a lot more cautious, sort of like the issue about white tail deer antlers. I really hope that you and those that think like you are correct and that the bobs do recover. As a free thinking individual however, I have to look at some of the data from the research folks that are managing wildlife and bobwhite quail professionally and believe that they know what they are talking about. |
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Quote: You've just described what i see when i look at the fields around here. |
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Nothing new, about fire, food and water. The rest really wasn't much help. Most if not all the CRP I've seen and been on is/was exactly as Cool_Hand described it. They'd do just enough to meet the requirements and never touch it again, and it slowly becomes more and more useless. Now I think everybody here agrees you can do a little work on it and improve it immensely, but where is the incentive to do that, if your not a hunter? which is the majority of the cases. |
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What is so neat about this whole issue, is that the Original Post was asking if there was any other gamebird available to replace the bobwhite, what ever its troubles are. We all got off opic on this one, but, and I am only speaking for myself, it seems that it has been clearly pointed out that the continued existance of bob white quail as a huntable species, does not look very good. |
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Quote: I came in on the tail end, sorry. But the answer to the question, is NO! |
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NO!!! |
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hwy man the insentive to doing the work is keeping and resigning their contracts. @ 30-70 dollars per acre it is well worth a little work in my opinoin CHC, dont get your panties in a wad every time someone dose not think you are DR. Dolittle. |
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I don't. That comment has nothing to do with the question raised in the original post, is there a replacement for bobwhites? |
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Quote: This is what I wanted to hear from you, thank you. Are these payments on top of the money they already receive? Heres where I really have a problem with CRP. A friend of mine nth of Coahoma TX has 1400 acres in CRP. With cotton as up and down as it was, he felt it to be a good idea at the time. 3 years later we had a heck of a drought, not only was feed expensive, it wasn't that easy to come by. As a last resort he asked if he could turn 72 head of cattle on it for emergency grazing. He was told he could not, and he would be kicked out of the system and penalized should he do it. He eventually sold all but his best breeders. In other words, he wasn't allowed to benefit from his own land other than the CRP rental checks. If we turn this around and get out of the cattle business and go into the hunting business, all of a sudden he's got free access to make as much off of the same land as he chooses, through day hunting or yearly leases. Plus he gets paid extra to perform any extras that might be beneficial to wildlife, and my tax dollar and my buddy’s are paying for it. Does this seem fair to anybody? I personally disagree with any tax dollars being used in this manner. I'm no supporter of the Farm Bill and especially the CRP program. We have farmers in this county that have basically stopped farming and are getting fat on subsidy payments. You have them in yours also. Check out this link. Go to the map and click on TX, then go down and pick out your county. Everybody in your county whose receives Federal monies, is on that list. http://farm.ewg.org/sites/farmbill2007/ |
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no the 30 -70 $ per acre is not on top of anything, also the land owner had to do a 50/50 cost share on the plantings of all the native grass and what not on that piece of crp, I think the idea is great but the way we are managing TEXAS CRP is pretty crummie. If subsidys up set you, look at the cooton sub. in Texas, in the three counties I hunt we paid farmers $750,000 to raise a non cash crop! Now that my friend is a problem. To enroll a piece of land in these programs like CRP, it has to meet certain specs. the 1400 of your friends must not have been a big producer and the Gov. was paying subs on the under production of the land. I can not tell you for certain but would bet you $20. If you really want to know the scoop on this 1400 call the NRCS office they will tell you why they enrolled it, how much they recieve, and how many years are left on contract. |
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I guess the sky is falling. I know this is not the trading post but by the why everyone is talking my next ad will read as follows: 3 GSP bird dogs (1 finished, 1 started, and 1 with a whole lot of promise, shes only 4 months and already pointing steady) 1 sxs 20 gauge 1 bird bag 1 pair of brush pants I know its not 1965 with 2 covies per acre but its what we got . So enjoy it. Id rather kill 5 birds in two days with my buddies and my dogs, than walk out with my limit and no one to share it with. "God made the earth, the sky and the water, moon and the sun. He made man and bird and beast. But, he didnt make the dog. He already had one." |
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I've been reading but keeping my mouth shut because I have no idea what has happened to the bobs. 10 to 15 years ago I was loaded with them(Montague County) and didn't hunt them. We had average rainfall, no habitat changes within 10 or so miles and no fire ants. They started declining and have all but disappeared. I saw one last Fall and occasionally hear one. A neighbor has tried to re-introduce them with no success. I do agree that as a huntable population they have had it. However, I did talk to one guy who guides in Mexico who says they are still plentiful around his area. |