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IN THE FIELD >> Upland Bird Hunting

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blanked
Woodsman


Reged: 06/03/07
Posts: 144
a replacement for bobwhites
      #426325 - 05/18/08 10:35 AM

some of my favorite game birds to hunt were brought in from other countries. chukar and pheasants. i think i read once this was back in the 40s. why cant the southern states that lost much of the bobwhites reintrduce another game bird that will thrive in our climate if there is such a thing. like what kind of game birds are there where the fire ants come from originally.... was it south america?

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gspbrad
Woodsman


Reged: 08/31/06
Posts: 166
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: blanked]
      #427445 - 05/20/08 08:03 AM

I cannot think of a single upland bird that thrives where land/habitat have been fragmented along with urban sprawl. These circumstances are much more problematic for upland birds than fire-ants.

Chukar, quail, and pheasants don’t live in Chicago, NYC, LA, or DC. There are no fire-ants in any of those locations and yet there are no wild birds either. I would imagine that it must be pretty hard to nest and rear a clutch of birds next to a fire hydrant, light pole, or parking garage all on asphalt or concrete. Just a thought……


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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity


Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15980
Loc: Azle, Texas
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: gspbrad]
      #427541 - 05/20/08 11:10 AM

Not trying to start a religious thread here, just passing on some information.

gspbrad hit the nail on the head, bobwhites evolved into and with the habitat, as have all game birds.

Some birds, such as Ringneck Pheasants have been able to be introduced into areas very far from where they originated, and in some instances it worked, in many it didn't.

As for the situation with the fireants, it has to be remembered that the fireants had predators themselves and were not the problem in their native country that they are here.

Hungarian Partridge have been tried with limited success, and chukars do well in specific type habitats(parts of the Rocky Mountains).

With bobwhites, along with the fireant problem, there is the fragmentation and modifacations of their habitat, along with increased numbers of mammalian predators, feral housecats and feral hogs.

Combine all of that with the fact that bobwhites are "Hard-Wired" when it comes to optimum habitat requirements.

While some on here will most adamantly disagree, several researchers feel that the bobwhite quail as a huntable, wild population is going to become extinct.

The birds will still be around, due to the numbers raised in captivity.

--------------------
Being Mentally Absent is not a Bad thing. Charter Member THF-OFC .

www.shoestringsafaris.com


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kyotee1
Pro Tracker


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1833
Loc: Coyotehill, TX
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Crazyhorse]
      #427711 - 05/20/08 03:41 PM

Well said by gspbrad and crazyhorse...

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Huntmaster
Bird Dog


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 291
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: kyotee1]
      #427822 - 05/20/08 07:06 PM

It's basically a mess. What was said is true. Land being
cut up everywhere. But, guess what boys-it's not just
quail-it's all reptiles. No more bullfrogs, turtles, horntoads, big black wasp nests in every tree, honeybees,
jackrabbits, cottontails, etc.(water snakes)


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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity


Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15980
Loc: Azle, Texas
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Huntmaster]
      #427855 - 05/20/08 07:46 PM

Bob whites however are suffering over the whole range, continent wide.

I feel really lucky in that during the last two weekends I have seen a half dozen or so pairs of Bob's, and even heard a bird calling this afternoon right behind our house which is just a few miles south of Azle.

In fact, we have been living here for 10 years now and there has been one or two pair of Bob's in the vicinty since we moved in.

State wide however, some of the species you named are growing in numbers or have stable populations.

Bob whites on the other hand are diminishing in numbers in the wild Nationwide.

Even without all the predators and the fireant threat, it may be a case of Bob whites not being able to adapt to the environmental changes taking place in their habitat, fast enough to rebuild their populations. JASWAG!

--------------------
Being Mentally Absent is not a Bad thing. Charter Member THF-OFC .

www.shoestringsafaris.com


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Txduckman
THF Trophy Hunter


Reged: 08/30/04
Posts: 5699
Loc: Big D
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Huntmaster]
      #428136 - 05/21/08 05:25 AM

Wouldn't say the W Tex counties have urban sprawl, more like less people now than before and their bobwhites are way down. Hard to say why besides rain at the right times and over grazing. There are plenty of rabbits to go around out there. No shortage of them.

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reeltexan
Woodsman


Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 215
Loc: red oak - TEXAS
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Txduckman]
      #428482 - 05/21/08 02:43 PM

Guess we better get used to Dove hunting only. Or, there's Killdee. All white meat.

--------------------
There are quail, there are bird dogs, there are shotguns. Ain't God Great?!!


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jeh7mmmagModerator
Veteran Tracker


Reged: 11/01/04
Posts: 2013
Loc: Colleyville, DFW, TX
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: reeltexan]
      #428519 - 05/21/08 04:00 PM

1. Brooding Cover
2. Nesting Cover
3. Roosting Cover
5. Food
4. Escape Cover from aerials




Farming practice fence to fence is a big part of problem.
Loss of cultivated land /food source is a big problem in my opinion.
60 to 80% of some counties went into CRP grass in the 1980s and these lands have turned barren to quail for food source.
Get your land owner to talk to ASC about the problem and manage the land for quail. Most just let it set in grass with no seed crop for quail. There are several financial program to help with management of lands. And the CRP can be broken up into strips of native grass and food plots for wildlife. They will even pay you for the set asid strips and planting in other benefical grasses.


Quail will abandon over-mature CRP fields
When the grass begins to crowd out the legumes and annual seed producing plants (usually 3 to 4 years after establishment), the main benefit is nesting cover. Once the legumes and patches of bare ground disappear, quail will seldom use the field. To keep quail around, manage CRP field to maintain their habitat needs.

When you take away 80% of the food source they are gone. BTDT an seen it over and over.

--------------------
http://mypva.org/home.html
CVT-16 USS LEX BLUE GHOST CATS


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Huntmaster
Bird Dog


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 291
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: jeh7mmmag]
      #428645 - 05/21/08 07:28 PM

Excellent post-several years ago I called and suggested
paying cash money to farmers or landowners to leave edges
along the fences. So many feet-so many acres-gets money.
The guy at the state said he had never heard of such a
concept-but he said no money is around. (now they are
doing it-but very limited) Boys, it's about the money-you
pay these landowners more than they can make by planting it
and it's a done deal. Money, money, money.


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Txduckman
THF Trophy Hunter


Reged: 08/30/04
Posts: 5699
Loc: Big D
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Huntmaster]
      #428707 - 05/21/08 08:55 PM

My buddies family are life long farmers. They leave large edges and buffers through out the whole pasture. Every 10 or so rows of cotton, they will leave a buffer of natural cover. It makes a big difference. Brings in deer and quail. That being said, two years ago was a bumper quail crop year for most of W. Tex and last year was well below par.

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bassinger
Bird Dog


Reged: 07/08/07
Posts: 438
Loc: North Texas
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Txduckman]
      #428839 - 05/22/08 12:25 AM

Just noticed recently we have a food plot with a feeder on one end.... over the last few months EVERY time we go out there will be a mound of feathers mostly quail and dove in the food plot. I have noticed while sitting in my blind the hawks have been regularly flying by the food plot.
The quail and dove love the fresh food plot and the corn feeeder but I think it is making them easy targets for the predators!???

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jeh7mmmagModerator
Veteran Tracker


Reged: 11/01/04
Posts: 2013
Loc: Colleyville, DFW, TX
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: bassinger]
      #428845 - 05/22/08 12:44 AM

Yes the hawks and predators watch the feeder for an easy meal. Set up a feeder for the Quail. Move the feeder to heavy brush and protect feeder area with chicken wire mesh. I know it ruins it for deer but you cant have both from same type feeder.

--------------------
http://mypva.org/home.html
CVT-16 USS LEX BLUE GHOST CATS


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jeh7mmmagModerator
Veteran Tracker


Reged: 11/01/04
Posts: 2013
Loc: Colleyville, DFW, TX
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: jeh7mmmag]
      #428848 - 05/22/08 01:18 AM

This is just one of the programs that can be used. Check with Quail Unlimited and Noble Organization for more.

Wildlife Habitat Incentives Program (WHIP)
The USDA, Natural Resources Conservation Service administers this program. WHIP is a technical and financial assistance program that reimburses up to 75 percent of eligible expenses incurred by a landowner for the development of wildlife habitat specified in an approved application. Maximum reimbursement cannot exceed $25,000.




Quail Management on Small Acreages

Deterioration and fragmentation of bobwhite habitat are the primary causes of the bobwhite decline throughout the United States. Fragmentation is the process where habitat elimination separates or isolates remaining areas of habitat. Recent scientific information indicates quail populations may need enough contiguous habitat to support at least 800 quail to prevent localized extinction over the long term. The area required to support 800 quail probably ranges from 800 to 8,000 acres, depending upon the quality of the habitat.

"Most landowners interested in quail do not own several thousand acres of habitat, so should they give up? No, quail management is not hopeless, but it is not easy either," explained Mike Porter, a wildlife specialist with the Ardmore-based Noble Foundation. "A landowner with a relatively small tract, such as 160 acres, should manage the tract so every bit of it, or at least as much as possible, is quail habitat. A 160-acre tract with 50 acres of oak woodlot, 60 acres of Bermuda grass, 40 acres of wheat, and 10 acres of native rangeland does not have 160 acres of quail habitat. In fact, this quarter section has very little quail habitat."

Ideal quail habitat has 5 to 15 percent woody canopy cover well distributed across the landscape, with mostly brushy woody cover rather than timber. It has no locations where quail could venture farther than 100 yards from woody cover. The herbaceous plant community is dominated by native plants rather than introduced species. More than 250 clumps of native bunch grasses exist per acre. Forbs are abundant. Canopy cover of herbaceous plants ranges from 25 to 75 percent, with most herbaceous plants 10 to 20 inches tall. Underneath the canopy of woody and herbaceous plants, 30 to 60 percent of the ground is bare (lacking plant thatch or stems). The amount of quail habitat present on a tract of land depends on how much of the land matches this description.

"Quail management should primarily address cover issues, such as woody cover, herbaceous cover, and ground cover," Porter said. "These cover types should be managed primarily through tools such as appropriate grazing, rest, and prescribed burning. In some cases, tillage and brush control can be practical tools for managing cover as well."

"Quail food is generally not a limiting factor when native plant communities are managed for appropriate cover," Porter continued. "In fact, food seldom limits quail populations. Drought, heat, snow, subfreezing temperatures, lack of adequate cover, or excessive cover usually limit quail populations. Providing quail food may attract more quail to a small area, which may be useful for hunting or observational purposes, but probably will not cause the area to produce more quail."

If a 160-acre tract exists among neighbors with adequate quantity and quality of quail habitat, well-managed habitat on the tract should provide reasonable quail numbers during years with average to good quail abundance. If the tract is an island because the neighborhood has poor quail habitat, or if low rainfall and hot temperatures cause poor quail abundance, habitat management alone on the quarter section often provides less than optimum results. To provide adequate quail abundance for hunting in this latter situation, managers may have to stock quail.

"Working with neighbors to form a wildlife management association is an option to create an adequate quantity and quality of quail habitat in the neighborhood," Porter said. "A successful wildlife management association can be quite a challenge. The primary challenge in such an association is people management, not necessarily wildlife management. It can be difficult to convince neighbors to work together toward common goals. However, the potential rewards are great."

Hunting pressure is an important issue and should be managed on small acreages. Quail populations on relatively small tracts of land are somewhat delicate. Hunting pressure probably should not exceed twenty-eight man-hours of hunting per 100 acres during each hunting season, which is not a lot of hunting.

"For example, it represents one person hunting for twenty-eight hours, two people for fourteen hours, or seven people for four hours," Porter said.

"Generally, quail harvest should not exceed 30 percent of a fall population. If this amount of hunting opportunity does not satisfy a landowner's quail hunting goals, the wild population should be supplemented with released birds, or the landowner should pursue additional hunting opportunities elsewhere."

All released quail and all release techniques are not equal. Some commercially available quail genetics are better adapted for survival in the wild than others. Most important, quail should be raised in isolation, away from contact with humans, dogs, and the like. Isolation is important to obtain adequate performance and survival of released quail because quail domesticate relatively easily. Appropriate release techniques, such as the Anchor Covey System or Smith-O'Neall System, should be employed because they improve survival of released quail relative to some other techniques.

"We are all part of a bigger picture. What we do affects others and their actions affect us," Porter said. "Most worthwhile goals in life require work and commitment. In summary, successful quail management on small acreages is possible, but not necessarily easy."

###

The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, headquartered in Ardmore, Okla., is a non-profit organization conducting agricultural, forage biotechnological, and plant biology research; providing grants to numerous non-profit charitable, educational and health organizations; and assisting farmers and ranchers through educational and consultative agricultural programs.

To learn more, check out the Noble Foundation Web site at http://www.noble.org.

--------------------
http://mypva.org/home.html
CVT-16 USS LEX BLUE GHOST CATS


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cbump
THF Trophy Hunter


Reged: 12/02/06
Posts: 6082
Loc: Weatherford
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: jeh7mmmag]
      #428853 - 05/22/08 02:24 AM

at the golf course in midland the other day I saw 4 bobs running around

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Sniper John
Veteran Tracker


Reged: 08/31/05
Posts: 2068
Loc: Farmers Branch
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: cbump]
      #429562 - 05/23/08 12:53 AM

Hunt Snipe!


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7mag
THF Trophy Hunter


Reged: 01/21/06
Posts: 9003
Loc: Tejas
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: blanked]
      #432691 - 05/29/08 05:37 PM

feral chickes are on the increase, and pretty tasty fried

--------------------

http://www.lonestartrailoutfitters.com/


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Bull_Rope
Outdoorsman


Reged: 05/29/08
Posts: 55
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: 7mag]
      #439343 - 06/10/08 08:46 PM

I hate to sound like I'm writing in another section of the hunting forum but I wonder what the effect of the wild hog population explosion has been on quail. I have no dobt at all that if a pig sniffed out a quails nest, the quails eggs would be made quick work of in short order. Same goes for the young flightless chicks as well. Any thoughs?

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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity


Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15980
Loc: Azle, Texas
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Bull_Rope]
      #439365 - 06/10/08 09:00 PM

Feral hogs definitely have an impact on all ground nesting birds.

--------------------
Being Mentally Absent is not a Bad thing. Charter Member THF-OFC .

www.shoestringsafaris.com


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deerfeeder
Pro Tracker


Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1705
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Bull_Rope]
      #439390 - 06/10/08 09:15 PM

Increased predation on non-target species such as quail is one of the drawbacks to supplemental feeding of deer. The feeders attract quail, but they also attract predators, anything from hogs to coons, to snakes, who can hit the nests pretty hard.

Dedicated quail feeders can be put out. There are some available where the birds have to actually go under the feeder to get the feed. Thsi keeps them relatively safe from hawks.

Also, if I remember right their normal body temp is something like 106 degrees. If they have to constantly evade predators in the Texas heat, once their temp reaches close to 116 they are pretty much done for, either from over heating or the predator gets them. I could be off on the numbers a little but heat can kill them really quick.

--------------------
www.deerleaseservices.com
A bar F
The buck STARTS here


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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity


Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15980
Loc: Azle, Texas
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: deerfeeder]
      #439411 - 06/10/08 09:42 PM

You are not far off on the Bobwhites body temp., can't remember if it is as high as 106, but if I remember right it is over 100.

--------------------
Being Mentally Absent is not a Bad thing. Charter Member THF-OFC .

www.shoestringsafaris.com


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Cool_Hand
THF Trophy Hunter


Reged: 09/28/05
Posts: 6116
Loc: Coleman, Tx.
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: jeh7mmmag]
      #439551 - 06/11/08 09:12 AM

Gonna get my .02 in here. Kyotee1 should know what the stats on the bobwhite as good as anybody. The main reason for the decline of the bobwhite is habitat. Fire ants has and is having little to do with their decline, according to Texas A&M research and the TP&WD! Predation is also another factor. But habitat is the main cause according to the articles that James has posted here. The first sentence tells all!!

Quail Management on Small Acreages

Deterioration and fragmentation of bobwhite habitat are the primary causes of the bobwhite decline throughout the United States. Fragmentation is the process where habitat elimination separates or isolates remaining areas of habitat. Recent scientific information indicates quail populations may need enough contiguous habitat to support at least 800 quail to prevent localized extinction over the long term. The area required to support 800 quail probably ranges from 800 to 8,000 acres, depending upon the quality of the habitat.

"Most landowners interested in quail do not own several thousand acres of habitat, so should they give up? No, quail management is not hopeless, but it is not easy either," explained Mike Porter, a wildlife specialist with the Ardmore-based Noble Foundation. "A landowner with a relatively small tract, such as 160 acres, should manage the tract so every bit of it, or at least as much as possible, is quail habitat. A 160-acre tract with 50 acres of oak woodlot, 60 acres of Bermuda grass, 40 acres of wheat, and 10 acres of native rangeland does not have 160 acres of quail habitat. In fact, this quarter section has very little quail habitat."

Ideal quail habitat has 5 to 15 percent woody canopy cover well distributed across the landscape, with mostly brushy woody cover rather than timber. It has no locations where quail could venture farther than 100 yards from woody cover. The herbaceous plant community is dominated by native plants rather than introduced species. More than 250 clumps of native bunch grasses exist per acre. Forbs are abundant. Canopy cover of herbaceous plants ranges from 25 to 75 percent, with most herbaceous plants 10 to 20 inches tall. Underneath the canopy of woody and herbaceous plants, 30 to 60 percent of the ground is bare (lacking plant thatch or stems). The amount of quail habitat present on a tract of land depends on how much of the land matches this description.

No mention of the fire ant anywhere, not even in Texas. Matter of fact the hotter and dryer it gets the less you will see the fire ant. It also has to have a habitat of moisture.

--------------------
Benny


T X Ranch


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jeh7mmmagModerator
Veteran Tracker


Reged: 11/01/04
Posts: 2013
Loc: Colleyville, DFW, TX
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Cool_Hand]
      #439724 - 06/11/08 02:33 PM

Habitat ffragmentation is most prevalent and problematic for quail management and restoration in landscapes where closed canopy hardwoods and pines, exotic grass pastures, large agricultural fields and suburban sprawl have replaced the low intensity, but extensive, farming and forestry of the past. This results in:
1) loss of the original habitat;
2) reduction in size of the remaining habitat fragments; and
3) Increased isolation of remaining habitats from other areas that support quail populations.

Land fragmentation and resulting habitat fragmentation has been shown to disrupt dispersal and movements of animals, result in increased predation and nest parasitism, disturb animal social structure and diminish habitat health because natural events such as animal grazing and natural fires are prevented.


Something we as steward of the land need to serious consideration is the consequence of the projects at our face right now such as: Wind power, Gas and oil exploration and production, TTC, underground pipelines such as the monster TB Picken water project, and there resultant further fragmentation of prime habitat. Roadways, equipment sites, UG and overhead utilities right of ways. Get with the leasing agents before hand and make them write in agreement for reestablishment of beneficial grass and habit for the wildlife as part of their trepass and surface damage agreement. Take picture before and after and put in a time penalty completion clause. Get with your neighbors and set up coops and guidelines for reestablishment of the prime habitats.


There's an energy boom going on in the "oil patch" region of Oklahoma and Texas the likes of which has not been seen in decades. This time around, though, the prize isn't under our feet, it's in the swirling currents above our heads. A rapidly growing number of domestic and international energy companies have targeted western Oklahoma and the Texas panhandle with plans for massive wind farm projects. Nowhere is this more evident than on the sage-covered prairies of northwestern Oklahoma. Hundreds of wind turbines stretch like a giant picket fence across the landscape, towering above the game-rich high plains. At first glance it would seem to be a win-win for both the environment and society ...When it comes to energy production, however, you never get something for nothing. Case in point: as a result of this boom, one of the nation's top public land bobwhite quail hunting destinations may soon be covered with a network of roads, high-tension power lines, and wind turbines.

--------------------
http://mypva.org/home.html
CVT-16 USS LEX BLUE GHOST CATS


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Cool_Hand
THF Trophy Hunter


Reged: 09/28/05
Posts: 6116
Loc: Coleman, Tx.
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: jeh7mmmag]
      #439843 - 06/11/08 05:43 PM

Exactly James, good post.

--------------------
Benny


T X Ranch


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Txduckman
THF Trophy Hunter


Reged: 08/30/04
Posts: 5699
Loc: Big D
Re: a replacement for bobwhites [Re: Cool_Hand]
      #441218 - 06/13/08 07:31 PM

Explain the habitat situation in west Texas? I understand how it would effect places that have been broken up like East Texas but not to the extent we see the quail going away in W Tex. My buddies ranch is 2,500 acres in Bosque. It was smaller years ago and they had plenty of quail as well as everyone else did around there. Land frag cannot explain that. They are very involved in quail rehab and it is not the land. Cattle are rotated every three days. Cedars have been removed. Cactus everywhere. No predators. 2 years ago everyone in W Texas had bumber crops of quail. We pushed 20 covies on 400 acres in Hall/Briscoe counties. My buddy plus 1 limited three days in a row in Kent/Dickens. Then last year there were no birds come opener. Land fragmitation did not occur out there and has actually gotten less as people have joined lands. It is rain related 100% it seems. 2 years ago wew got 8 inches of rain in one night. Same year as the bumber crop. No impact. They didn't drown as people like to think. Just my observations here. At my lease in Montague, no land frag occured and quail almost went away in the three years I was there. We would see 2 covies per 160 acres there in 2005. Now nothing. 4,000 plus acre ranch as well we were on and no land owners around us changed. Long time ranchers.

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