Hoytman
Pro Tracker
Reged: 10/06/06
Posts: 1349
Loc: hopkins co
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Guys and gals if you get a chance to read page 48 of august 08 magazine and read in the article about that a bucks first rack has no bearing on the size of his rack at maturity. Im sure that quote will start some fur a flying! But good article. If ya get a chance read it. 
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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So they say they keep growing as they get older, I would of never thought. Learn something new every day, 
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JCB
THF Trophy Hunter
Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 5021
Loc: BIG D
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Quote:
a bucks first rack has no bearing on the size of his rack at maturity.
I have been preaching that here since I joined this site, but no one wants to listen!
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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15977
Loc: Azle, Texas
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Strange, I do not remember the biologists down at the Kerr WMA sharing that attitude, the things one learns as they get older.
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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Now come one.... You have to admit there is going to be a gain in antler size from year one to year two and year two to year three. Its the nature of the deer. Every year his body changes and his needs change.
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JCB
THF Trophy Hunter
Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 5021
Loc: BIG D
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Quote:
Strange, I do not remember the biologists down at the Kerr WMA sharing that attitude, the things one learns as they get older.
Thats because you are listening to the wrong biologists! 
Go sit through one of James Krolls siminars and he will set you straight on this subject!!
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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That might be pushing it just a little JCB. I think something has been taken out of text from the guys at Kerr.
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JCB
THF Trophy Hunter
Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 5021
Loc: BIG D
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Quote:
That might be pushing it just a little JCB. I think something has been taken out of text from the guys at Kerr.
Me and CH beat this subject to death a few weeks ago so we both know where we stand on this issue!
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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How dare you brang up the Prostitute of Deer Management? You mean the AR thread 
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JCB
THF Trophy Hunter
Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 5021
Loc: BIG D
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Quote:
How dare you brang up the Prostitute of Deer Management? You mean the AR thread
Call him all the names you want, but he still knows more about deer management than you, me, or anyone esle on this site will ever know!!
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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Not argueing that I was kidding..
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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15977
Loc: Azle, Texas
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Going from a 4 inch spike to a 6 inch spike is a gain, I can not argue with that.
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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LMAO, well played CH, but then again you just admitted they do grow every year  Now if I can just get HWY to say Farm subs are a good thing my work would be done.
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Txduckman
THF Trophy Hunter
Reged: 08/30/04
Posts: 5699
Loc: Big D
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I am sure the next years article will read that a bucks first year rack will determine it's size!!! Gee, they trying to sell magazines or what??
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deerfeeder
Pro Tracker
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1702
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I think that first year buck's antlers depend a whole lot not only on genetics but how well momma ate before she had him and how good the browse was after he hit the ground. Rain or lack of it in that first year makes a big difference.
Kroll is a pretty smart fella, he knows his stuff and he knows how to market it.
The guys that really sell their soul are usually the gun/deer hunting writers who also get into every deer hunting tv show they can. JMO 
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A bar F
The buck STARTS here
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JCB
THF Trophy Hunter
Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 5021
Loc: BIG D
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Quote:
Not argueing that I was kidding..
I know you were! I would have given you the little middle finger happy face if I thought you were serious!
I think yall are missing the point of the artical! What they are trying to say is that you cant always judge the full potential of a buck based on his first set of antlers!
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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15977
Loc: Azle, Texas
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Words of wisdom from someone with field experience.
Dr. Kroll is a very intelligent person, within the scope of where and the conditions he gained that knowledge under.
The body of his work and teachings deal with deer herds that have been under controlled conditions for various lengths of time.
Dealing with a free ranging deer herd under varying conditions across their range is, in many cases, guess work at best.
JMO, but to try and equate how much antler growth any buck will achieve, without having any real knowledge of its genetic potential, is the worst kind of crap shoot at best.
I will stick with the information from the Kerr, in that a 1.5 year old, fork antlered buck under normal range conditions probably has the potential to become a really great buck, as long as nutrition levels are met to allow the extra protein required to let that animals antlers achieve that potential.
But that a 1.5 year old buck that is a spike under those same range conditions, simply does not have the same genetic potential to grow a set of antlers that will even come close to equaling the fork antlered buck of the same age class.
A spike won't necessarily always be a spike, but it is probable that it will never be more than a 5 point in its life, this is especially true under normal free range conditions. JMO.
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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CH- Would you agree that breeding dates/birth dates and nutrition also play a big part in the size of a yearlings antlers?
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cibolo
Pro Tracker
Reged: 02/05/08
Posts: 1093
Loc: central texas
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i've heard so many varying opinions on this over the years as all of you have. but the basic thing i believe is what deerfeeder stated. anywhere i've ever hunted the rancher or landowner has had control of the game management practice's, they usually take input from the hunters,but the overall decision was decided by the owner. and all of them had different view's on the subject also. the results for that matter seemed the same either way. there were some that said bust any spike you see. then another that would scold you if you brought in a spike that was his first set of horns. so the safest bet alway's seemed to me to be the age factor. it's not perfect but your chance's were better if you knew you let the spike have ample opportunity to grow a second set of antlers to see if it was somthing you really wanted in the gene pool. allthough it's still a crap shoot if that deer was a little older than you first thought and he breed a few older doe's who drop twins with his gene's and carry on that spike's lineage for years to come. it's tough and there is no gurantee what's going to be the ultimate outcome. but if you have strict management practice's in place,and a good feed program you limit a few of the variables in a free range situation.
i've read those article's were one say's this and the other say's this. were one deer had spike's the first couple of time's and then all of a sudden produced a 10 point rack, or a young forked horn never produced more than 4 or 6 points. was it genetics or the lack of food the contributing factors or is better to just not risk it and eliminate that type of buck's gentic disposition from the herd?
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jgiles
Veteran Tracker
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 2546
Loc: Grapevine
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Thats the way I role..
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rb85cj7
Light Foot
Reged: 12/04/07
Posts: 15
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My largest issue with the Kerr studies is that they were done in a very controlled setting. Meaning 100% of nutrition was provided, fawns were all dropped at the same time, etc. You don't have that in a free range herd. There is no way of telling if that yearling spike was the result of a second or third estrus cycle or if the mother was injured and that spike got sick when it was younger and is now stronger because of that. There are just too many variables that the Kerr eliminates that play a huge factor in the whole issue.
That being said, If i was a deer breeder and had control over all things concerning my herd I would agree that you should cull all spike bucks. But I don't have control, so I don't. I manage buck:doe ratios, available food sources, carrying capacity, and age structure. I cull 3.5 YO bucks very heavily.
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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15977
Loc: Azle, Texas
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Breeding dates/birth dates no.
Genetics and nutrition all the way. At least that is my opinion and is basically what the studies at the Kerr show.
Without those two in combination, having one will not make up the lack of the other.
A buck can have the best antler genetics in the world, but if range conditions are poor, those antlers will not grow to their potential.
It is the same thing if there is great range conditions but really crappy genetics, the antlers that a buck in those conditions has, will grow to their genetic maximum, and that is it.
I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, I am just going with what I have observed and the research materials I have studied.
Part of what I have studied was with a white tail buck that was brought in as a yearling to the zoo, and placed in an exhibit area I was in charge of.
That buck was at the zoo until after his 7.5 year rack.
At one time before he was moved out to the Fort Worth Nature Center, I had each years set of antlers mounted on the front of the big exhibit barn in the area, and had a card under each with the deers age listed for that set of antlers.
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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15977
Loc: Azle, Texas
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Your basically saying the same thing about TP&W's studies, as I am about Kroll's studies.
Most if not all of Kroll's work has been with heavily managed and controlled deer herds, including the work he did when he worked for TP&W.
Using the results obtained from studies conducted on a heavily managed/captive group of deer is only going to have a limited, in my opinion, amount of usefulness when applied to free ranging animals.
In any controlled environment, you are able to remove all of the shifting and uncertain parameters that free ranging animals have to live with.
The controlled studies done by TP&W and Dr. Kroll, have their place and value, I just don't believe they are the Holy Grail answer for managing the deer over the whole state of Texas. JMO.
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Being Mentally Absent is not a Bad thing. Charter Member THF-OFC .
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rb85cj7
Light Foot
Reged: 12/04/07
Posts: 15
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But you have to agree that there is a big difference in a controlled herd on thousands of acres (even high fenced, highly managed) than a 40 acre pen with a feed trough. I aggre that when you look at both studies there are just too many variables in a free range herd for them to apply much.
But I know that most of the time you only get so many tags to manage your property and it seems that I would rather use them on bucks I know (2.5-3.5 YOs) are not what I want.
Oh and how does the dropping date of a fawn not play into antler growth in the first year. I hunt in s texas where fawns should drop in late july early august. I have seen spotted fawns as late at christmas. you can't tell me that the fawns that drops in late Dec. has the same advantage as the fawns dropped in August. I base that on available nutrition for both the fawn and the doe. But i think that we agree that bad nutrition can kill antler growth.
I do think that if you had the a solid doe:ratio, good nutrition, proper carrying capacity, and good age structure in your deer herd, that the only left in the management plan would be to shoot spikes. But you should most likely be shooting yearling 4 points as well. I just hate to see people go out and blast the hell out of spikes and not fix the man issues of what made them spikes. 50% genetic / 50% nutrition.
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Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 15977
Loc: Azle, Texas
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Not sure where you came up with your 40 acre pen figure, because the pens TP&W have down on the Kerr are right at 100 acres, but yes there is a difference between 100 acres and a couple of thousand, but only in degrees.
Quote:
I do think that if you had the a solid doe:ratio, good nutrition, proper carrying capacity, and good age structure in your deer herd,
More was said in that one statement, that affects the deer herd, high fence/low fence/no fence, than everything else talked about.
The Buck : Doe ratio has to be in balance.
The carrying capacity of your property has to be greater than the population of deer on it, too many places run over capacity.
Good nutrition, is not only tied into the plant community on the property and the nutritional value of it, but the amount of animals depending on it for their nutrition, that goes directly back to carrying capacity.
Age structure helps, but only if the hunters on that property are taking out deer with poor genetics regardless of age.
As for the fawns born in Dec. versus the fawns born in April or May, compare that Dec. fawn to an April fawn on Nov. 1 of the year the April fawn is born.
That Dec. fawn has a 5 month head start, that april fawn may catch up, but probably will not surpass the antler growth by Nov. 1.
There are no "BlankeT Fixes" to the situation. It would be great if there was, but I just don't see it ever happening, simply because as a group, not all deer hunters are after the same thing. JMO.
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Being Mentally Absent is not a Bad thing. Charter Member THF-OFC .
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