I thougth they all were but i guess not. Learn something everyday

I hunt Tyler County and we went AR this year. We are a 2 buck, 2 doe County and I'm not convinced that if we went to 1 buck, 2 doe if that wouldn't accomplish the same concept of allowing more young bucks to survive!!!

One thing i have read in some of yalls responces is your deer herd is overpopulated. I go all over east tx and never once have i seen a starving deer or any visible evidence on the foliage that shows over populated deer herd. I would bet money nobody can produce any pics of it. Ive seen up close evidence in west tx and south tx but not e.tx. Another thing in yalls post i have noticed is you dont understand how can ar rules be effecting deer numbers in some countys, its simple, you go from a 1 buck in rifle season and a doe in archery season only, = 1 buck only for 90% of the deer hunters in hopkins co. to 4 deer for rifle hunters. Pretty easy math to me. One more point i would like to make is in one post it said i cant blame ar rules for the drop in numbers. TPW made these rules and nobody else and the bag limit. If anybody knows of any body else i should be blaming please let me know so i can get my act together and blame the responsible party.

I blame the TPWD too, Hoyt.
Mainly the ones that don't have that backbone to stand up to landowners, lease/co-op mgrs. The ones that LACK the intergity, in pushing this with flawed science, data, and misrepresentation, while spewing "Age Structure" out of one side of their mouth and "Spike Tag" out of the other.....

I can tell you what a TPWD (manager/director level) person told me "In confidence".

May not be EXACT QUOTE but real, REAL close:

"These landowners and lease/co-op mgrs are not able to control the harvest of their members & neighbors. From the neighbors are shooting tooo much, to members will not "burn a tag" for a rag horn, and they are having a hard time managing for older buck deer. These landowners and lease/co-op mgrs want TPWD to be the bad guys"

I told him:
BOOO FREAKING HOOO. If they want to shoot a magazine buck then go where the magazine bucks are. I want to catch a Bule Marlin too, but I don't expect TPWD to put 'em in Lake Whitney.

Truth is TPWD came up with false statewide justifications, that are based on harvest desires of the original counties.

Not some made up Age structure problem discovered in processing plants across the state!!!



Out,

Great Post!

On the "does are not part of Antler Restrictions", well, they came in place together as one piece of administrative change of policy; so they get lumped together.

I don't think they could sell Antler Restrictions without the 2nd or spike tag and without doe days or permits.

OK, so let's assume that this is protecting the 1.5-3.5 year old small bucks: Even with that assumption, there's no guarantee or proof or even probability that they will become legal at 3.5, or 4.5 or 7.5. If their genetics are not present to generate larger antlers, it doesn't matter how old they become.

As for how overall numbers are going down, you've protected a smaller segment of the group (under 13" non spikes) and unprotected all does and all spikes. There are more deer legal to kill today in Red River County than before, and they are getting kilt.

It may be great on places in southern counties that have established WMA's COOP's and other quasi-govt groups. But it's killing off Red River, Lamar, Fannin, and others.




As for hunt elsewhere, I do. But when I am hunting in Red River Co, I don't expect the deer to look like the bruisers in Foard Co or the racks in Real Co.

I love the Blue Marlin quote above, that's awesome. I feel the same way about the yearly stocking of trout in small lakes during cold weather.... they won't live, and they won't reproduce, might as well bring in Blue Marlin.

Are the mentioned counties (Red River, Lamar, Fannin) under the 4-day anterless (Thanksgiving weekend) regulations? Were there any allowed previously (not including MLD's), prior to AR's?

Several counties locally have had the 4-day anterless, before and after AR's. No decimation of the deer herd seems to have happened, yet deer hunting is VERY active in our area.
A season-long open season on anterless would likely have a different outcome.

GSS I was wondering the same thing, i think if you have open season on Doe the point of the OP is could be Valid, however, with the number of Doe allowed and the number of people who meat hunt, Its my thought that the Doe harvest is probably healthy....The AR counties I have hunted, and our family land in Madison county just got AR's there was only a 4 day doe season, of which is the thanksgiving weekend, when a lot of hunters cannot go hunt, I think it is naive to say that AR causes a dip in total deer population when there are numerous other factors....its like saying the ice caps are melting because we drive a car....it simply could not be proved....

as far as the Blue Marlin comment, why don't we compare apples to apples and say did we argue when they brought in the Florida strains of Bass or when they started the Sharelunker program which takes genetics from one lake and transports them???

apples to apples?????

I tell you what the inland fisheries group got a lot more credibility with the way Phi Durocher Inland Fisheries Director handled the bowfishing for catfish thing. He told the Commission that he didn't have the data to support it. But the Commission went ahead and passed it in the first split-vote in commission history.

apples to apples, meaning marlin to lake whitney IMO would be more like TPWD placing Elk in Texas and regulating them, except for the fact that elk would have a survivability rate in East Texas....But i understand the analogy however it doesn't fit the AR debate. The idea is simple and that is to put some age on deer, whether it is right or wrong or good or bad is another argument and I am on the fence about the whole thing. I really don't care about the "Commission" or Phi Durocher, my point is that by making an attempt to limit the killing of young bucks is NOT the same as trying to produce magazine bucks, but to raise the overall quality of the Texas herd, as they did with fish by using slots and even just simple minimum length requirements

GSS they had no thanksgiving season before, and there were no does taken except in archery season only and they were few and far between. Thats my beef we didnt have many deer before but enough to hunt. Now we have even fewer with all the does that are being taken because of the bag limit. Now we have fewer does and bucks. One buck can breed a bunch of does but if you dont have many does left you dont get many deer, buck or doe. just shorten the bag limit and i would welcolme the 13in. rule.

That's the problem with your corny logic. What in the hell are you going to breed those bucks to???????????

I said it before but I will reiterate. I can kill 5 does this year. That is 150% more than we have been allowed for the last 20 or so years. When the does are gone, I would like to see what trophies you guys have to hunt then.

I dont know about everybody else but most of the guys i know hunt the thanksgiving season the hardest because thats the only time they get off with pay. I cant say about other countys but i can say with confidence 2 does in gun season and 2 bucks is 2 or 3 more deer than we should be allowed in hopkins co.

txfour, what county are you in? That does make a great point and makes the entire post valid in my view....I guess I was Just under the assumption that the AR counties had counts taken by TPWD that would take that into consideration and would put bag limits on Doe to the extent needed....guess i give TPWD too much credit

I am in Jack County.

Listen, here's my beef with AR's. If you want to age the bucks, have a two season no buck tag. Simple as that. Instead, they try and blow smoke up my wazoo telling me to shoot a buck with good genetics and kill the spikes that we have no idea what their genetics are. Goobs.

If you had a two season buck tag wouldn't everyone kill doe and have the same problem, and the third year would get a lot of dead young bucks.

The best answer IMO is education and CO-OP's we did this in Madisonville and had a 3 year no buck period followed by a two year spike and HUGE buck only to now being very selective, it has worked well, even though some did not follow we still reduced the buck harvest to near nothing the first three years and WOW what a difference.

I think you are missing what I am saying. TPWD needs to change the bag limit in Jack Co. to 0 bucks for 2 years (however, you will just have more crappy bucks IMO as our don't have the genetics anyhow).

Here was our bag limits for the longest I can remember
2 Does + 1 Buck = 3 Deer total

Now it is
3 Does + 1 Spike +1 13"incher
or
4 Does +1 Spike
or
4 Does +1 13"incher
or
5 Does

AR guys really need to work on their math skills and help an old redneck understand this fuzzy rithmatic. You ready...it's a tough one.

How does killing off 66% more of the total deer polulation or 150% more of the doe population equal more deer???

Here's my analogy. I am blessed in that I own my own business and am able to work from home 80% of the time. This also means that nearly any day of the year I am free to go in the field and hunt. I also have 2000 acres of family land that I can hunt any time I want. What does this have to do with anything?

Well, we absolutely love deer meat, and I am quite frugle with my money, so, why not fill my freezer with gods free creation?

Here's where the numbers get to be staggering. Me, my wife, my daughter and this starting this year, my son hunt deer.

Last year I tagged out, my daughter took a buck and doe and my wife one deer. That was a total of 6 deer.

I will tag out again this year preferably on doe as they taste better to me. I've shot plenty of bucks in my life and could care less about shooting another. Now my wife and daughter like to shoot bucks.

Let assume this:

I will tag out = 5 deer
My daughter will do well also as she hunts a bunch = 4 deer
My wife = 3 deer
My son = 2 deer

That is 14 deer or 125% more deer. Now, for the scary numbers.

We all take 5 = 20 deer I bet that really increases the herd numbers over the next few years

If you AR guys really supported bigger, older harder to hunt deer, you all would have no problem with Texas going no buck for 3 years. Does only and not stupid astronomical doe numbers either. Bassically your old bag limit minus the buck.

Here's my main gripe with the whole AR/doe/TPWD management plan..........

Why do the people who want bigger antlers get to tell people who want to kill a deer, that they have to change?


I've seen the "health of the herd" and "overall age structure" arguments, and they just don't wash. If there's really a health issue, or an age issue, then don't hunt them at all for a year or two.... I will positively guarantee the deer are older in two years if none of them are hunted.

I'm not following the logic here. What do AR's (which are based on, and designed to increase, the herd's buck deer age structure) have to do with the number of does allowed (which is supposedly based on total deer census vs range carrying capacity)?

Aren't these 2 totally separate issues? If more does get whacked after AR's are implemented, won't next Summer's census show it and the regs get adjusted accordingly?

That is because there is no logic. People say they are two different things. No, they go hand in hand. When AR's are implemented, allowable does are increased (at least to my knowledge in mist counties).

My theory? TPWD figured giving us more animals would hush the guys that suddenly could not kill bucks because they had no qualifying bucks.

Txfour if I were you I wouldn't shoot any extra does. You can't just replace one of your bucks with a doe. It doesn't work that way. A buddy of mine got a ticket that way 3 years ago. You get the does allowed and 2 bucks. You don't see bucks that are legal you just don't get them.

I really think we just close deer season for two years, and all these small basket rack bucks will be 140 class monsters!

There's a lot more to deer hunting than anter scores. At least there is for us.

We see ALOT more bucks and a few more does. Granted 90% of the bucks are young, but the overall buck doe ratio has gotten better and the population has gone up.

I suspect alot of what your problem is that your in east texas and alot of folks there are gonna shoot their bag limit regardless of the antler restriction, and with the AR the bag limit went up. I'm guessing in areas where the hunters obey the AR the deer population thrives, but where they don't it crashes.

Also I don't understand why they upped our doe bag limit from 2 to 3 (5 if you sacrafice your two buck tags). I think thats gonna hurt things in our area.

From P&W regs: Bag Limit: 4 deer, no more than 2 bucks, and no more than 2 antlerless, all seasons combined.

This seems to be the most common reg for the AR counties, with the anterless portion either 26-29 Nov (Thanksgiving), or 7-29 Nov, or by permit only.

I think a county where 5 anterless can be taken, no restrictions, is the exception....and seems likely to cause problems....but it still does NOT go hand-in-hand with basic AR rules.
Link is to counties under AR.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/season/deer/spec_antler/

Yes, I do get a total of 5 for a bag limit just as i described in any combination above. This according to TPWD phone call as well as a visit with my local GW.

Maybe yall should consider going archery only for deer like grayson county, it seem to work for them. Fannin co. is right next door an all I always hear complaining about how few and small the deer in fannin are compared to grayson.