Why Mouflon Why

Why in Austria are these called mouflon but in Texas they would be cross hybrids

Because they are cross hybrids and Austria does not want to call them that.

Wowsers!

What are they crossed with?

I have no idea. You tell me.

Idk but they are studs

I think those are just mouflon with better genetics

Kinda like a Midwestern whitetail will look different than a Texas whitetail which look different than Florida whitetail

wouldn't matter as long as it was in my CROSS-hairs

I thought that the European Mouflons that are in Austria and the Czech Republic were introduced in the 1800 and the original stock came from Corsica. I know I read that...now whether that is true or not I cannot guarantee.

I also thought that the European Mouflons in the US (not just Texas) were from zoo stock that came from Europe.

So I always assumed that the Mouflons that are hunted in Europe had better horns because they were older and might have also had better genetics.

So I am confused when someone says that the ones in Europe are hybrids and the ones in Texas are not.

Oh..and for the record I'd shoot one in a nanosecond!

I've wondered this myself and have even seen a pic of ram with a real faint patch from Spain and it was still being called a pure a mouflon.

I would shoot one of the rams above and be thrilled with it.

B/C in Texas curl out like that is 99% of the time a cross with a Corsican. Really big Central European mouflon will curl out like that - they aren't purposefully crossing them, they have just selected for certain traits over centuries of controlled harvest.

Most of our really good mouflon look closer to the Spanish and southern Med Mouflons - at least the ones I have seen over there.

Some of the European Mouflons will have some domestic sheep in them - somewhat inevitable since they live in close proximity - this is why, particularly in France you will see some with white points on them.

First of all I believe there are as pure of mouflon here in Texas as anywhere in the world. However due to demand (and some bad outfitters) a lot of cross breeds are being pawned off as pure. Therefore Hunter better beware and educated.


My question to you Sir,
I also agree there are some of those 1% in Texas. If top Texas mouflon ranches decided to improved their mouflon herds by breeding to the 1% with huge curl out horns would they be accepted as pure mouflon here?

Okay...I'd be interested to hear what Rickey Hunt has to say.

Way back 30 or more years ago when Louis Stumburg was developing his Sheep breed he had 2 results. One being the Stumburg we are familiar with and a Mouflon looking type that the horns flared out. He decided there was not a good market here in the States for a sheep like this. He kept the Stumberg type and since he was originally from Austria sent the Mouflon type semen there where the gov. impregnated as many of the wild Mouflon as they could. Thus that is why they now have the Mouflon with the flared horns.

WOW.. Now that is some information.

donk and SheepHunter,

I just emailed Gary Ploch at the Patio Ranch and asked if this is true. Recall you see the flared horns on the Mouflons in Austria as well as the Czech Republic (where some of the largest horns come from). Artificially inseminating a bunch of wild sheep seems like a pretty big undertaking. I will post Gary's reply.

I posted this on another thread, but given the posts about the European Mouflons and the post about the Patio Ranch, I thought it might be appropriate to also post it here?





Here is an excerpt from that newsletter. I also attached the link. They do not state what the exact hybrid was, but someone did tell me it was Transcaspian Urial x European Mouflon (25% Europen Mouflon), but I do not know if that is correct. Regardless, I would love to shoot a ram like that.

"The second was a hybrid Trans-Caspian urial ram that had been an experiment in genetics. It produced a sheep that is a one in 10,000 type sheep: large body, long horns, massive bases and the intelligence of the true wild sheep."

http://www.thepatioranch.com/timbo-s-dream-come-true-sheep-hunt/

I can't believe anyone believed that line of BS I wrote this morning. It was raining and cold outside and my mind was full of it. You all have to take with a grain of salt about half of what I write. Kind of good story though, Huh?

don K, You SOB..... I thought you were being serious. I'll get even

You made my day Tony

WOW.. Now that is some information.

Case solved.

Mouflon from Austria


Hybrid from Texas



I'm looking for a Austria mouflon in Texas

Too funny! When I saw the post, I thought 'that's bull' and I'm glad to see that was confirmed. On my mouflon hunt in Austria, I saw several younger rams that had the typical Texas look. So, I thinks its an age/genetics thing.

On a similar, but true note - my guide told me that all of the alpine ibex in Austria were wiped out and then reintroduced. Other than the ibex, all of the other species have been there naturally.

utcb,
I remember your original post on your hunt. As I recall your wife killed a HUGE Fallow buck. I believe you hunted with Klemens Bugeling who is the guy behind Hunting in Austria, Miesenbach.

How old is a trophy ram in Austria?
How common are flared out horns?

Thanks

This is what one of the concessions in Austria has to say about trophy and age...appears that the trophies are over 5 years old which I would think is young (given the are suppose to live over 10 yrs in the wild and almost double that in captivity)

Mouflon

Ovis musimon


Stock: The inventory goes back to the Empress Maria Theresa, and has performed very well in our mountain regions. Over the centuries, was repeatedly replenished with fresh Corsican and Sardinian mouflon to ensure healthy survival. (e.g: Fürst Metternich / Baron Rothschild / Hermann Göring etc.)(z.B. durch: Fürst Metternich / Baron Rothschild / Hermann Göring etc.)


Hunting season: 1st of June till the 31st of January


Rut: October/November


Hunt: The mouflon is active during the day. We hunt them both by stalking and by observing from the raised seat. The pack is divided into herds of sheep with lambs and young rams. The rams we are allowed to hunt, mostly live alone or in pairs.


Caliber: The mouflon-ram is a very robust game, so we recommend to use: 7x64, 8g-11,5g / 300 Win Mag 9,7g-14g / 30-06, 8g-14g


Trophy: the authority allows the shooting from mouflon-ram in three classes:
Class 3: ram with 1 year
Class 2: ram from 2-5 years
Class 1: ram with more than 5 years


Invoicing: HuntAustria charge the trophy by centimeters horn length.

Prices:
70cm = 185 CIC bronce € 2.225
75cm = 195 CIC silver € 2.615
80cm = 205 CIC gold € 2.995

Dang it Don you got me as well. I thought we were going to have to start referring to you as the "Oracle"

CIC score sheet for Mouflon

Very Interesting... CIC points not just horn score

Found the entry document also interesting

CIC Regulations

From what I understand the "CIC" Score is a lot like "which Girl is the Prettiest" depends on Who's looking! The Ram in first pic that Sheephunter posted is in My Book and excellent Specimen except for the lack of Color (Saddle Patch to small, no white running up his legs etc.) the second pic where the Ram has been "Harvested" is Flaring way to fast, at 37-38" they are going to have to Grow somewhere either into their Head or BEGIN to Flare out (The way I judge them is like a Coil Spring, the Radius stays the same no matter how much You stretch it, each coil maintains the same radius as the next coil) the Ram in the second pic and what a lot of the Hybrids in this Country do is at the bottom of the Curl, they tighten the Radius, I know of a Strain of Mouflon here in the States that was imported directly from the Frankfurt Germany Zoo that are bad to Flare out, but their tails are as short as any You have seen, Problem Here is (at least for Myself) I can't justify keeping a Ram over 3-3.5 Yrs old unless He is a Breeder, most Rams Hunted here in the States are not even 5 yrs old, the Rams You see in Europe are pushing 10-12 Yrs old, also SCI states that "the Horn Tips cannot be the widest width of the Horn, EXCEPT under special circumstances"....to Me they are leaving Room for a 40" plus Ram, I had a Breeder Ram at 5 Years old was over 40", a lot of Folks thought He flared out past His main Beam, but when He looked at You dead on, the Tips were flush with the Main Beam......

What I didn't say is, the Ram in the first Pic, If He was looking at You dead on, I'm willing to Bet His tips are not wider than His Main Beam, the angle He is looking makes them appear to be.....

most people forget that mouflon are very tiny animals....a mature ram is only gonna be 80-90 lbs on the hoof.

tough as nails though mine took a 130 grain softpoint thru the front right shoulder and it exited his back left hip and he still got up and made it off a cliff before expiring

Every time I walk up to one I am always amazed how small they are.

So if what we are hunting here in the states are 3-5 years old and a sheep won't hit maturity till 10-12 then why are we shooting them that young?

Seems counter productive

If most mouflon will be 30" + at 5 yrs why not let them get to 8-10 and truly massive lengths before shooting them?

I know that the mentality of some whitetail breeders (who sell shooters) is that they can sell a deer at 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 and make good money....and to wait until a deer reaches 4 1/2- 6 1/2 is a risk they do not want to take. So they get the money they can...when they can.

I suspect it's the same for ranchers who have Mouflons.... when they hit about 30 inches there is probably a demand/market.....so they sell or hunt them rather than hold and raise them longer and maybe lose them to disease, a fight, whatever. That's just my suspicion.

I tried this many years ago. I bought 10 Mouflon yearling rams from the Flying A ranch in Bandera. Keeping Rams together after they get some age on them is not good. First problem I had was coyotes got a few. After a couple of years they were too big for the coyotes. Then I started having problems with broken horns from fighting. Then I had problems with them killing each other. How you may ask is this possible? What happens is you have two fighting. a third or forth wants to get in the fight. You have two facing each other and then one of the onlookers comes full tilt and hits one of them in the side and busts ribs or legs of the original fighting sheep. Out of the 10 Mouflon I sold 2 in the end. Not a good investment. I had them on about 80 acres. Maybe if it was larger the results would have been different. There is an old saying about sheep. "They are just looking for a place to die". And no Tony this is not some made up story.

Sheep are the dumbest animals on earth. I'm afraid to shoot or eat one because the stupid could rub off on me or infect me. I wear synthetic insulated clothing because even their wool could transfer some of the dumbness they are infected with. I've never dealt with any of the wild sheep in the mountains. They may have retained a little wild sense. But the ones I've seen on ranches were dumber than a rock.

That said some of them have impressive head gear.

^^^^ did you shoot the blackbuck over his poop pile^^^^

Haha, Passthru, You must have only been around Domestic Sheep(Corsicans included), Mouflon are some of the Smartest, Cagiest and most Cunning Animals on the Planet! and txtrophy85, what Don K and Tony said, with the right Genetics and Nutrition a Mouflon Ram can reach 31-36" at 3 to 3.5 Years of Age, selling them Live, the Price per Inch increases greatly at 30" and up, It does not Pay (as much as I would like to) to keep them any longer, the Risk outweighs the Gain! attached is a Pic (hopefully it worked) of My current Breeder Rams, one is 3 yrs old, the other is 4, at these ages their growth has slowed weigh down, for the next couple of Years, their Feed will cost more than the Extra Dollars they would bring

The Ram on the Left is 4 and measures 37", the other Ram is 3 and measures 32"

You are intitled to your opinion, but I take exception to your statement. That may be true for some of the Texas Dalls, Black Hawaiians and Corsicans that are pen raised and let loose, but I don't think that applies to the Mouflons and Urials .

Those two rams are really handsome with great horns and great markings. I am actually more impressed by the 3 year old as his horns appear to have an exceptionally deep curl. He's going to look unreal once his horns start to curl up as he gets older.

Thanks Tony, I'm with You on the 3 yr old, I Bred and raised Him (crossed two different Genetics) the 4 Year old is out of proven Genetics (HIs Sire was over 40") I purchased Him as a two year old....

Hilonesome Beautiful rams. Keep up the pure work.

As you say the growth rings do get closer the older they get.

Those are some very good looking Mouflon Hilonesome. Oh and passthru, Mouflon have hair not wool.

Thanks Guys! You Guys may notice, I almost only post on Sheep Threads, I just Love Wild Sheep! Some Day I hope to have a collection like SheepHunter!

You've must have only dealt with Corsican or Corsican-type sheep.
Urials, and Mouflons are truly wild critters.

When you start crossing them with Corsicans though it seems they become quite watered down though.

Not to stir the pot at all, as in most part I would agree with "domestic" hunting sheep being dumber than a box of rocks, however I have hunted a couple of Rams on different ranches that I would undoubtedly say were every bit as leery as a whitetail. With that being said these Rams had probably been born on the ranches which were good sized pieces of property. On the other hand I have so seen sheep that you couldn't get to run even if you through a stick at them. I shot a very nice Corsican with my bow on day 4 of a 5 day hunt and I truly feel as if I shot a P&Y whitetail buck.

Regardless, involving mouflon or any other of the "high end" sheep they have never been less than spooky and aware of their surroundings at any ranch I have been to with them on there.

I've never been on a true mountain sheep or goat hunt. The ones raised for the wool are not bright. As for others I only know what I've seen here in Texas on ranches. Most of them were corn vacuums on hunts I have been on for other animals. Some wouldn't let you pet them but they still were easy targets at the feeder. Even if you got out and threw rocks at them.
As for the BB no, I didn't shoot him off of a "poop pile". I shot him chasing does after two days of hunting. Spot and stalk and safari style with a rifle. Not the way I had hoped but he will look good on the wall should my taxidermist ever finish with him.

I hope you are not trying to compare a sheep hunt in their natural habitat to what is offered in Texas and are being critical of those hunts and the animals taken. I don't think that's what you are implying, but obviously you cannot compare the two.

Like most animals, sheep are creatures of their environment. Pen raise them and feed them from a bucket for a few years and they will be pretty tame like the ones you describe......but throw them out in a big pasture for a couple of years where there are coyotes, bobcats and hunters....they get pretty wild pretty quickly. Just like feral hogs.

From what I know the Mouflons and Urials are pretty nervous and high strung, and they get wild pretty quickly. I've even had people tell me that in a big enough pasture the Dalls and Hawaiians (and even the Corsican crosses) can be pretty hard to stalk and kill if they have been in there for a while. So I think a lot depends on how the sheep are treated and how long they have been "on the loose.".

I think everyone should make their own decision on what to hunt..... how to hunt....and what's a challenge or what isn't. It's a personal thing.

I have a few of both BB and Mouflon. The Mouflon longer by a few years than the BB. The Mouflon are by far the wildest of the two even after all this time.

I haven't had experiences with mouflon but I have hunted an Afghan Urial at the Priour.
They are very cagey and wary animals and take off the moment they see you.

I've seen some of the mountain hunts on tv. They don't look easy. Even some of the aoudad hunts I've seen out in west Texas looked pretty wild. But none of the ones on the exotic ranches seemed challenging to me. Although they've had some with nice horns and coats. But let's admit it, that is where the vast majority of the animals taken by us "exotic" hunters here in Texas are. Munching corn at the feeder. I believe you are probably correct about the animals in natural habitats. I don't believe there is any comparison to a Texas Dall and a true Dall in it's natural habitat. Something the vast majority of us will never be able to afford to hunt anyhow. And I realize that hunts are in the eye of the beholder. I just see the discussions about hybridization and keeping breeds pure, etc and I wonder how you could do that when they are all together in these pastures and at the feeder.

And the blackbuck hunt I did was not easy. Even the doe were spooky and ran at the slightest hint of us or a vehicle. One doe shot at 125 yards, the other 205. The buck was close to 100 yards and headed out when I popped him. But still, I would value a smaller one shot with my bow much more.

Pretty sure yours was more than 5. That said, the amount of length gained past 5 for the odds of broom ing or breaking is pretty low. Past 5 they probably only grow 2-3 inches per year declining about 50% each year. You can certainly get them older where they are native breeding operations, but on the put n take stuff most sheep are taken within that age range.

Ive been hunting a very large ranch for several years now that has a large population of Blackbuck. Most of them are not that wary but there is one buck that I've see 3 times in 3 years and I still can't get on him. I imagine animals are similar to humans in that some are very jumpy/wary while others are not as much. OBTW if I see that blackbuck this May I believe I'll have a world class trophy for my office!!! Baker

By the way those are some good looking animals.

One way that ranches keep their sheep pure is to have a breeding facility and seperate ewe/ram pastures. It varies as to how they breed sometimes the breeding flock is kept strictly in the breeding facility and sometimes the allowed to run in the pasture then the ones that show promise are darted and transferred to the breeding pen. I guarantee you that a mouflon or urial that's been running in a semi open pasture with broken terrain and cover wont be a slam dunk.

I have sold Mouflon to Game Ranches, I guarantee You that once You catch them (By whatever Means) load them up, haul them to an open Pasture and open the Trailer Gate You better look quick! Have had several of them complain that they can't find them again! a lot of this goes back to Purity and Put and Take, 1.) There are still a lot of Ranches selling Hybrids as Pure Mouflon, most Hunters don't know the Difference and said Ranches capitalize on Uneducated Hunters, all it takes is adding a little Domestic (Corsican) Blood and You have a different Animal, 2.) A lot of the "Put and Take" Ranches only want an Animal after a Hunt is Booked, they then get that Animal Delivered on Friday, Hunter comes on Saturday and Animal is still Disoriented to the Point that He is looking for Like Animals and/or Boundaries, Feed, Water etc. By Natural Design, I have weeded out the Ranches that Buy Animals and Hunt them within a few Days, simply because those Ranches for the most part will not Pay for a Quality Pure Mouflon, The Ranches that maintain a certain amount of Integrity either Buy them ahead of time or Raise their own, In one of My Favorite Books "The Great Arc of the Wild Sheep" the Author (who worked for the Museum of Natural History in New York) was employed to Trek the World over to Hunt Big Game and bring back to Taxidermy for Display in the Museum(in the early 1900's) Of all the World's Big Game, The Wild Sheep gained His Admiration the Most as being the Most Cunning, sure footed, wittiest, Wildest and Cagiest!

What I didn't say is, upon Delivery of Mouflon Rams, I have driven thru Corsican Sheep like One would drive thru checking Cattle just to get the the Area to release the Mouflon, a couple of times had to honk My Horn to get them out of the Way!.....If You start to get the Feeling that I have had to Defend comparisons to Mouflon and Corsicans, You would be right! LOL!

Yes, your memory serves you well. It was honestly one of the best hunts of my life. We loved it and I highly recommend Klemens as the outfitter.

I don't know how old he was but he had alot of grey around his muzzle and face

He was also broomed off pretty good

Just count the rings on the mount. May be hard to tell what a sheep is sometime, but at least they are easy to age.

So each ring is a year?

I'm seeing a lot of rings....its hard to tell.

now you have my curiosity peaked


upon recount with some help from a the internet...I'm counting 8 or 9 rings.

was it possible he was that old? I shot him feb 06'

The first ring from the Horn Tips toward the Base is usually the "Baby Tips", usually occurs at the time the Ewe Weans them, the next ring toward the Base will usually be the end of their first Year and so on....the Older they get obviously the closer the Rings get, sometimes it gets hard to tell....The Horn Annuli is seldom accurate in Sheep raised in Captivity.

Sheephunter,

The flared horns are not super common, but they happen. Not every Austrian outfitter has them on his place. A lot of Austrian properties are high fenced, so this needs to be understood up front.

They are pure mouflon, have been designated as so in SCI since the 1980s.

SCI has a a seperate listing for the flared horned rams.

Age wise, they are 8-14 years old. 80 CM is a good trophy, 90 is a really good one and a 100 CM is a super trophy.

Take a look at the SCI record books for the rest of the world and you'll see what I mean.

What do you guys think of these mouflon? We have this herd on our lease but we can't shoot them without paying extra. As far as I know, the whole time we've hunted here, nobody has ever shot one.

nice looking rams..thanks for sharing the pics.

Shoot the two ewes in the middle of the first pic and the left of the second quick.

TxTrophy85 - your ram could easily be 9 or 10. We have shot several at that age. Can guarantee you he never set foot in a pen. They do wear the front edge as they get that old making the rings harder to count. I count from the back, usually a little cleaner on the back.

I agree, I'd contact the lease owner and hopefully with his permission...blast those dang hybrids to oblivion.

It's good to see pure stuff still out there, especially free range.

Typical of the comments you make..... never say anything positive..just slam anything that is a hybrid.

Maybe because I don't want to see everything turned into a tame Corsican?

Maybe because you are so immature you can't help but make nasty remarks ...

Have you ever hunt any of the hybridized exotic sheep (Corsican, texas dall, black hawaian, ect)? Because as much as you bash any hybrid species I would guess that you would have never hunted them, right?

I agree with kobus.

kill the hybrids on site

I have actually.
2 Dalls, a Paint, and a Corsican.

What is it about those ewes that IDs them as hybrids? Will Mouflon cross with Aoudad? That is the only other sheep we have on the property.

Their coat color is a factor showing they have some other blood in them....
And thankfully aoudad won't cross with anything.

So based on your statement that you have hunted Texas dalls, Corsicans, and paints numberous times, is the statement below and and your constant rants on hybrids not extremely hypocritical.

Most Corsicans type sheep I have seen aren't all around that wild. The ones I've hunted were in my youth. Sure for me back then it was a little more challenging, one of my dalls had a rather large discomfort/comfort range which made it hard to sneak up on him.

Are they an Aoudad/Mouflon in terms of wildness? Heck no.

Do they make cool wall mounts? Yep.
Are they challenging to hunt? Not really.

If you don't want to hunt them...fine. But why not stop beating the drum about how they are dumb, stupid, farm yard pets, etc....other people (some with children) might find them perfectly acceptable to hunt.

Not to sound Negative or "Pee on anybody's Fire", but for those that don't know, I am a "Stickler" when it comes to Pure Mouflon, I don't see a Pure Mouflon Female in the Herd, they are 3/4 to 7/8ths, a Pure Mouflon Ewe will not have the "Badger Facial Markings", their Ears will point at least 45 degrees upward, and their Poles will be square to triangular, not round, among other things, Once they turn around, their Tails will be longer than 4", Most Pure Mouflon Females will have a tail no longer than 2.5-3"

He is just stating facts. Corsicans and many others are a domestic sheep breed. Domestic meaning livestock. They never existed before man got ahold of them and there behavior shows that the wildness was never in them.

If people want to shoot them it's their business but don't try and make it something it's not.

Comparing a Corsican to a pure mouflon or aoudad is like comparing a Labrador to a timberwolf

Not negative at all. That's good info, and why I posted those pics. I know nothing about mouflon, and nobody seems to have much interest in this herd that runs around on our place. They are just out there doing their mouflon thing. Those shots are a couple of years old, and there are some nice rams on the place, but none of us deer hunters want to pay the extra $$$$ to shoot one. Even less so if they are unknown hybrids. They do make for a fun photo safari.

Do ewes make good table fare?

No one is comparing the species. That's not the point. Do you ever read kobus's post? He goes out of his way to personally trash ranchers who raises hybrids and without any first hand knowledge takes cheap shots at Ranches he never visited.

If you want to post that most Dalls, Corcicans, etc they are not as challenging or not as wild as pure bred Mouflons, Urial, etc that's fine. But to use terms like, "dumb", "farm yard pets", and other derogatory terms is juvenile and not appropriate.

Really nice for some dad and kid that decided to hunt a Texas Dall (which is part Mouflon) to read these types of posts. Let them do what they want to do and enjoy themselves and not have to read this bs.

A rancher should be able to do pretty much what he wants to do on his ranch if the business model works. It's called 'live and let live."


Despite what you and kobus would prefer to see, there is a market for Texas Dalls, Black Hawaiians, Corsicans and hybid Ibex as well as other hybrid sheep because not everyone can afford to hunt a pure breed Ibex, Urial or Mouflon.

So bottom line it's all about the derogatory references. You can make a comment about the challenge to hunt one species over another without CONSTANTLY throwing in derogatory comments.

Well, if a dad and son are researching and they come across a thread it may keep them from wasting money

I won't argue that there is a market for them, but I have been on alot of ranches that sell hunts for them and 90% of the sheep I have mentioned I could have killed with my sig .40

Most have come off a trailer at some point prior to being shot. Alot are raised in small enclosures prior to being sold to a hunting ranch. Don't believe me go to a livestock auction

If that's what someone wants to shoot that's ok but know the facts

You made my point.

No the facts are some have the need to lump everything bad with anything good? It makes their argument fit their agenda. Even you regretfully acknowledge there is a 10% population which would be more difficult to harvest. You even admit not all come off a trailer and some are not raised in small enclosures.Therefore one should conclude not all is bad.

I choose to do my homework and take personal responsibility for my decisions. Therefore I do my homework and have found the good ones. So if someone is looking for a Corsican hunt do the same due diligence as you would any hunt. Check into everything.

Sheep hunter,

You clarified my point. Like you, I would be looking for the 10%. Sure, they can be found with research.

If I was researching and came across a put and take place most are not advertised as such so when I show up there and that's what I find I and many others would be very dissapointed. There are ranches out west that offer hunts for truly wild Corsicans but they are by far the exception and not the rule. That's why I said may, 90% and find out the facts

If a hunter from out of state reads these posts it may convince him to dig deeper and research a truly good hunt instead of a put and take. If he still chooses a put and take then he has the knowledge to make an informed decision

Look at it like this; if I wanted to book a hog hunt, I come to a place and shoot a feral hog that is born on the place, in a wild environment, that's what in looking for.

I show up to hunt a hog and I find out I'm shooting a domestic pig bought at an auction, I'm going to be upset, unless it was explained to me prior and that's what I was wanting

To give another example; we were looking into a red stag hunt in New Zealand. We were all excited about it , then I started doing research. Fact of the matter is alot of the estates raise them in enclosures and then turn them out to shoot after they have reached a certain size. Well known places too. So after digging deep we found out the facts. Not every person is going to do a ton of research and alot make deals based on face value

Im not against hunting all types of sheep. I'm against alot of the misrepresentation taking place in the sheep hunting industry

I'm still counting 9 rings.

That is awesome and makes it even more of a trophy to me

I saw one that was considerably bigger than him but he walked off into the cedars and never did offer me a shot.

Agreed. If you go in blind then yes you may get the wool pulled over your eyes. Then again that can be said about any industry.