Help me settle an argument

Right now I'm arguing with an old man who thinks he knows everything. He seems to think that as long as he takes his wife dove hunting with him, he can shoot more than 15 doves LEGALLY because 2 people are holding guns. Even if she doesn't hit a single bird. Google didn't turn up anything. I need to know asap because we bet a bottle of Scotch and I want my McAllen.

Thanks THF!

Nope

Enjoy your scotch! If you need someone to help you drink it, please let me know.

Thanks fellas. Big Al, I'm gonna save you a glass.

Up the bet to a 45 ft containerload of scotch

He can but the fact of being honest comes in to play and if the GW was to ask her she might not lie for him.

Ask him if he is going to lie to a GW when he ask how many did he shoot?

Totally wrong, but I see his point. I pay registration on a vehicle. They don't care who drives it as long as the tag is paid. I have two vehicles. I can't drive them both at the same time, so why not let someone drive one for me, since it's paid for? I've paid for whatever taxes on two vehicles pay for, so why not fill two licenses if she isn't going to use hers? Better to use it than leave it in the driveway. Again, totally wrong, but I do see his point of view.

Not really but somewhat depends on the Warden.

Horse crap!

Everyone he shoots he should put on his strap. Everyone she shoots she can do the same.

If he shoots 30 birds in the same day, he's exceeded his limit.

Enjoy your Scotch.

Ummmm....I was saying what he thinks is wrong, just explaining how I could see his reasoning. Did you miss the "Totally wrongs" at the beginning and ending of my post?

He can only shoot 15, no matter how many people/guns are joining him. I've seen a lot of people be dishonest on this one and I've seen some situations where it's near impossible to actually know who shot what.

I really don't see the analogy between a car registration and a hunting license.
There are lots of times I too have experienced situations where it is near impossible to actually know who shot what or both hunters shot the same bird at the same time. By etiquette it is usually handed to the shooter with the least birds in the bag. But to buy a license for a family member for the intent of using their presence to allow one person to shoot a double limit is not the same thing and is totally illegal. On the TPWD Game Warden blotter there have been instances reported in the past of people cited for this when Wardens discovered it after talking to other hunters or family members in the field or in camp, especially the children who tend to innocently tell the truth.

Trivia and another one that is rarely able to be enforced, did you know that birds you know you killed but can't find are supposed to count against your limit.
I kinda sound like a Geico commercial.
http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/791097/

In this scenario it's a perfect analogy. It's purely financial. The old man thinks since he paid for two limits he should be able to kill two limits. What does it really matter who killed them? Again I say, totally wrong and illegal, but I do see the logic behind his thinking.

edited to add: OK, think of Pivo tickets. They can only sell 10 to an individual. You buy your ten, then buy 20 more from your non-drinking friends. 30 beers get drank by you. As long as the 30 beers were paid for, what does it matter who drank them? (just don't drive after that). See the logic?

edited again: not even sure "drank" is a word....probably not.

Drank is a word, you said it right. It is past tense for drink. lol. I hunt in another state for deer and the people there keep saying I have plenty of tags for deer even though the limit is 1 buck and 1 doe. Just because they have tags doesn't mean that I can shoot more than my limit and break the law.

Thanks! I get that!!! Just because my wife has a licence doesn't mean I can kill twice as many. I'm not saying shooting someone else's limit is legal or even "ok"!! Just saying I see the logic behind the old man's reasoning.

Hey Slow, I was agreeing with your analogy, not attacking it. It's right along with the OP's old man shooting more than his limit question. The folks where I hunt think just like the old man. They think "hey I didn't get my deer yet so you can shoot it for me". Lol.

You win but he can shoot more than 15 if he shoots ECDs. Or are they including those in your bag limit now?

A vehicle registration is not a license and an individual can register as many vehicles they want. Anyone with a drivers license and permission can legally drive the vehicle no matter who it is registered to. Your not breaking any laws or gaining anything extra by registering both vehicles in one persons name or two. Your pivo ticket would be a better example except that the op would only be breaking a rule, not a regulation or law. Futunately beers are not managed by the USFWS. You can legally shoot all of the beers you want.

If a game warden watches him from a distance and he kills over his limit he will get a ticket period.
Experience speaking here!

I get what your saying Drifter.

he can and cant but if he gets stopped he can say his wife shot half but its not legal to shoot over your limit or ethical i can see him doing it but its like a loop hole but if hes spotted doing it then he is screwed. but its wrong and some what legal just frowned upon

So, if I'm crappie fishing should I stop fishing if I've caught 25 keepers and there are two of us in the boat and the other guy has only caught 12? Or, should we both continue fishing until we hit 50?

What is your reply if the GW ask how many you caught?

I got your back brother, friend, buddy, neighbor!

Whoa. That 30-year is a little pricey for my associates. A bottle of 17 doesn't sound unreasonable though.

15 a day per person is what it is .

That stuff is even high for a well-to-do guy. Even the 18 year is out of my league. But any Macallen is better than no Macallen.
We bet a beer, and when the stakes get high it is a six pack.
Enjoy

More trivia. For fishing there is a "guided" exception.

"The bag limit for a guided fishing party is equal to the total number of persons in the boat licensed to fish or otherwise exempt from holding a license minus each fishing guide and fishing guide deckhand multiplied by the bag limit for each species harvested."

Haha I usually wouldn't bet at all. I didn't want to call bs on him in the first place, but he was trying to give some younger hunters bad advice and so I called him out. He probably won't pay up anyway.

I'd say we've caught 37.

I hunt with my wife...this situation hasn't come up, but I can see his point.

One thing that is interesting to me is that legally, he doesn't need 2 guns. If the warden didn't see the birds they shot, and they're going to lie anyway, just say that she shot her limit and then he shot his.

There's nothing that says both hunters have to have a gun...hell I don't think there's anything that says you can use 2 guns if you wanted to.

I don't know if I'd do this with my wife...with 2 limits....I don't think I'd feel bad if I was slightly over...knowing that she'd likely be way under....like Jacob645 said, we do this in the fishing boat all the time. Is it to the letter of the law? Nope. Is it what I'd consider blatant poaching? Nah, I don't think so...the limits are set with the expectation that hunters will shoot some number of birds, up to a limit of 15...if we were that short on dove the limit would be lower.

I don't argue that it's legal, but I don't feel as strongly about this scenario as I do about what I heard earlier today, which was someone not far from me shooting, pretty random...didn't sound like target practice....it sounded like a dove hunt in august. I found a winged bird at my place a few weeks ago, so I know someone is shooting birds early (already been in contact with the warden on that situation). I have a real problem with the "early birds"...no pun

I don't think it's a coincidence that they started shooting at prime time and randomly blasted off until the birds quit flying. It sounded like they saw more birds than I did.

Nope, I'm pretty confident that they were hunting too.

Sorry, while you may have two vehicles registered in your name, you can't drive both at the same time.... just like you can't buy your wife a license, then shoot her birds..... legally

But you could drive both vehicles in the same day. And you could shoot both limits of birds in the same day. Only the latter would be illegal and unethical. I still don't see how your justifying the thought of illegally shooting two limits of dove because you can only drive one of two legally registered vehicles at a time. Most of the time you only shoot one dove at a time as well.

You dont have to be there at 5 am on opening day.
You can easily roll in at 8:30 while most of the hunters already have their limits and handpick your doves.
Yes, there will be less doves, but a whole less hunters too.

You can try to justify it to yourselves anyway you want to. Where do you draw the line on what law is acceptable to break? I'm just wondering not throwing rocks.

It's just up to each individual. I don't think either scenario(fishing or bird hunting) is blatant poaching. I know in the eyes of the law it is but I'm just being honest. If there are 3 people hunting then the max limit is 45.

Well, the thing about fishing is you can let them go. So you'd only be breaking the law once you kept number 26.

Let me ask you this. Would you let someone tag your over sized red? Or tag theirs?

Well you won your bet. Illegal yes, but as the saying goes, "It's only illegal if you get caught".

It is illegal but I would not lose any sleep if somebody shot their limit and helped their buddy finish theirs.

I would if they forgot their license so they could avoid getting a ticket if we happened to be checked. Not that this would ever be a problem for me because I don't know anyone who would even keep an over sized redfish...

Or would you tag a deer you shot with your wife's tag? To bring your wife and buy her a license so you could shoot extra deer is the same thing as bringing your wife for the purpose of shooting her limit of dove in addition to your own. In the original poster's question, this is his intent. Not to commingle birds of two hunters shooting birds together. The intent in the original question that started this thread would be blatant poaching.

blatant poaching Really Thats not poaching man , i really dont see the problem with what he's wanting to do really i mean it's kind of bad but not .

By definition it is. No skin off my hide, but clearly that would be illegal. Ethics is a different can of worms.

poach
v. poached, poach·ing, poach·es
1. To trespass on (another's property) for fishing or hunting.
2. To take (fish or game) illegally.
3. To make (land) muddy or broken up by trampling.

Just call your local game warden and ask him, I'm betting he won't say 'it's kind of bad but not'....

If i get time later today i will i have a family member that is a GW and i dont think it is illegal it does not state it anywhere in the book that you cant do that in those words does it ? I am not 100 % sure anyhow people are going to do it either way .

Well heck I will just bring my wife and son and shoot thier limit to, bring a couple neighborhood kids that dont need licenses and really blast away. Sounds like a hoot

Better yet..... make sure you lie when he/she ask how many birds you shot and make sure the non shooter is using a different gauge shot gun.

Your friend would still get a ticket because he had no fishing license. For the scenario to relate to the original question would be more like bringing a non fishing friend along to buy him a license so you could catch and tag two oversize redfish.

Just get everybody ya know with a gun that cant shoot fer chit and you can just shoot thier limits for them. Is that how that works? I think not!

Its funny you bring this up. Three weeks ago I got checked in Rockport... first question did you caught any fish, second question can I see them all, third question which ones did YOU caught (to each of us), then asked for each of our license. And asked again which fish we caught.

I have heard people talk about that, about learning the hard way. Also seem to remember this coming up in the field notes about doves and ducks.

Party hunting is illegal. It's also not respectful to your fellow hunters. If you're on the hot side of the (field, spread, whatever) and you've got your birds switch spots with the people you call friends and let them shoot theirs.

Undercover investigation reveals illegal crane hunting
http://amarillo.com/news/local-news/2012...l-crane-hunting
"On a three-day undercover investigation beginning Jan. 22, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agents met Meissenburg in a motel parking lot in Littlefield for a morning hunt through corn fields in Castro County, the release said. Prosecutors said Meissenburg told the agents to fill his daily bag limit after they filled their own of three sandhill cranes each."


Several years ago I also remember there was a three year undercover investigation on the coast that involved over 100 agents. SEVERAL were arrested including guides and clients. Violations included claiming birds for others that there not hunting/over limit, and for guides record keeping violations related to same.

Fishing is a bit different from hunting.
Fishing, all of the fish go into a common chest or well.
Hunting, the GW gets POed if you "pool" (put them all in the same pile) the birds.
We had a GW tell us as he drove up "I don't want to see any pooling of the birds, all of them must be separated." Note: At the time I could not find this in the hunting guide.
I had my birds up at the front of the cab and my daughters were on the tailgate. He was a turd and had a fit and accused us of pooling. As respectful as I could I asked him what was the law on how far apart her pile had to be from mine, so I would know for future hunting. He dropped the issue.

If the birds are not separated and there are no Wildlife Resource Documents for each hunter's limit, the birds then belong to the owner of the common chest or well, truck's tailgate the pile is located. I don't know what the ticket is for but I would imagine it is over limit or failure to obtain a WRD. Anyone who has seen the ticket, what was it actually written as?

Can he do it legally? Sure, I could shoot 100 birds by myself, hide 85 and tell the GW I only shot my limit.

Can he do it legally AND honestly? No, 1 person can only shoot 15 birds, enough said.

How the hell is any of that legal? You sound just like the old man that got this whole thread started in the first place.

So it's only illegal if I get caught? Hmmmm... I've been living life all wrong!

Wow that made no sense at all, except for shooting 15 birds.

So he can do it legally and illegally? Cant be both

Good friend got one at the coast cleaning 5limits of ducks. $15,000. Was reduced to $2500. Have no idea how it was written.

Federal GW

Get it on video so we can see his facial expression

The fine that much would have been over limit. I am sure it included restitution for each bird over the limit as well.

The analogy of a hunting license to a vehicle registration is a bit off. Once registered, anyone with a valid driver's license, may operate a registered vehicle. Case in point, rental cars. The vehicle is registered, not the person. In hunting, a person is issued a license. So the correct analogy is a hunting license to a driver's license. Regardless of who pays for the cost of the license (hunting or driver's,) the license is issued to an individual and as such, no one else may legally use that license. This is the reason why all persons, over 17 years of age, participating in taking game (hunting or fishing) must have on their person, state issued ID. This way, a GW can verify the name printed on the hunting license is in fact the actual hunter.



With the individual license, there are daily bag limits. The daily bag limits are tied to each individual license. They are not transferable. If you, a licensed hunter, shoot your limit of any species and then proceed to shoot somebody else's limit then you are committing a violation to the Fish and Wildlife laws. It does not matter if that person is standing next to you in the field or that you paid for their license.

but I can shoot my limit in the morning, go home and clean 'em up, then go back in the afternoon for another limit...if you can do that why cant this guy shoot his wifes birds?

In some areas you could actually take three limits.

Provided you hunt in Texas and neighboring states and have valid license for each.

I could see this if you lived near Texarkana. For example, you could hunt the morning in Arkansas, then a noon hunt in Louisiana and finally an evening shoot in Texas.

Getting Garrett to one hunt a day is hard enough. I don't think he could handle the cycle.

I know it is wrong to do what the guy was asking but i was just trying to see what the response would be but to the above post about getting a limit and going back thats where i say if you can shoot a two person limit in the same setting and the other person is there and hunting why is there such a stink about it . It is just like some that i know do on deer they will have one of there son's or wife or daughter tags with them and have a note wrote by them and if he shoots a deer calls them and tells them where it was shot what time and all the facts so if something happens and the GW checks him it should be all good , i am not saying it is right or legal btu there sometimes when laws just dont make much sense.

I am getting the feeling there are a lot of folks on here that don't follow the laws and limits... Probably the same ones that complain about GW's and how they don't cut anyone any slack.

Going to ignor Garrett, but I will address this. Tis not true. Migratory bird regulations are based on Federal limits. You can take birds in in all three states in the same day, but you can't exceed the total limit of one state. If the limits are different such as when Texas was under "hunter's choice" and Oklahoma was not, and you are hunting in two states in the same day, the bag limit is probably the bag limit for the last state you are hunting in that day related to possession. But for migratory birds you can't legally shoot a full limit in every state you hunt in a single day.

If he has that opinion just tell him is absolutely correct. It ain't smart to argue with old men.

Because they have old men strength?

Seriously! As already said, this one is blatant poaching. As well if one is going to break the law, risk to benefit on this is really stupid bad and expensive. Poaching deer could be a felony depending on how they want to spin it. And these people are incriminating their wife and children. Not to mention what they are teaching their children.

A quick search of the TPWD field reports comes up with several.
Jan 8, 2014
Tag, You’re It
While checking a father and his two daughters, who were hunting in Harris County, a warden found both daughters had multiple tags missing from their licenses. The girls said they had never harvested a deer before and that this was their first time hunting this year. The father said he knew nothing about the missing tags on their licenses because both girls live with their stepfather and mother. After a lengthy interview with the stepfather, citations were issued for hunting under the license of another and over the bag limit of white-tailed deer. Cases pending.

Slip of the Tongue
A Real County game warden was talking to a hunter in a store parking lot about a nice buck in the bed of the hunter’s pickup truck when the hunter admitted that his buddy shot it, but he put his tag on it. The hunter, realizing what he just told the game warden said, “I guess I’m in trouble now.” Cases pending.

Dec 11, 2013
Un-licensed to Kill
Seeing a fresh, clean tag on a large buck brought into a local deer processor, a Polk County game warden became a little suspicious. After checking the license with dispatch, the warden learned that it had been purchased a few minutes before the deer was dropped off at the processor. Several interviews later, the warden found that the man had already killed a large buck on opening day, also killed the buck in question on the same property. To avoid getting caught, the hunter called his brother and asked him to go and buy a license for another family member, who was not a hunter, and bring him a tag. The plan backfired when they forgot to get their stories straight. Charges filed included exceeding the annual bag limit of white-tailed buck deer less than 13-inch antler spread, hunting under the license of another, and possession of an illegally taken white-tailed deer. Cases and restitution on a 140 Boone and Crockett whitetail pending.

Nov 26, 2013
Too Little, Too Late
An Angela County game warden who pulled into a deer camp to check hunters came across a man from Lufkin who had killed a 14-inch, six-point buck on opening day. As he continued to check the camp, the warden saw that a deer had been freshly dressed at the skinning rack. The man told the warden that his girlfriend had killed her first buck, but neither the deer nor the hunter was at the camp. The warden asked the man if he had a picture of the 17-inch, nine-point deer, and the he showed him a photo from his phone of a big deer hanging from the skinning rack by the antlers. The game warden asked if he had a photo of his girlfriend with her first deer and the man said no. After further investigation, the warden found that the Lufkin man killed the buck, then called his girlfriend and asked her to purchase a hunting license and tag the deer. Citations were issued.

Learned something new. Thanks.

Depends on the Warden.

A lot of people I know that hunt dove do that, one time on opening day my ???? killed over 50 yes I know its wrong, and I don't do it I promise.

Hubbs,
For non migratory game, it may or may not be legal in some states. Some states do address it for non migratory game. Oklahoma has this with their migratory regulations, but also for Turkey and Pheasant, and probably others.

Hunting in Two States
A hunter who hunts in two states having separate daily limits, may not exceed the largest number of birds that can legally be taken in one of the states in which they take birds.

One would want to be very careful with this one as well because transporting illegal game over state lines then gets into Lacy Act violations.

dumbass abounds in this thread

Someone once posted on THF about a Warden checking hunters at a Motel at Graham catching guys with double limits on opening day. Seen a few where wardens found violations via social network from people bragging, posting, or pictures as well. Some on on THF too. Probably a lot more than I/we know about too. Like remember the guy that posted on a forum about how to get free license by falsely claiming to be military. I had a conversation with an OK warden once about a man he investigated for an illegal deer that he had posted a picture of. There apparently was no record of him having a license or something like that. In the end the guy got in trouble not for taking the deer, but for causing the investigation in the first place. The whole story was made up as a way to impress his friends on his hunting ability. People do some stupid things.

"Some that I know"

From TPWD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myn1c1xLVB4#t=238

I may be wrong but a game warden (from my understanding) has more authority than the police. They don't need permission to come on your land, they don't need permission to search your residence etc. All they need is probable cause which could be they "think" you have a feather in your house that is illegal. Point being they can still go in your house without your consent, find feathers in the trash, and determine you poached (even if you claim they were from yesterday). They have all authority cause of the federal laws.

I may be mistaken and someone correct me if I am wrong that is just what I always was told about a game wardens authority given the federal laws surrounding migratory birds.

You still have state and federal procession limits

Rule #8

You are right, he is wrong.
If he wants to be hard headed about it I'd just keep my mouth shut and let him go hunt. Maybe he'll get a ticket or two.

All i could hear was "You might be a redneck"

Slip of the Tongue
A Real County game warden was talking to a hunter in a store parking lot about a nice buck in the bed of the hunter’s pickup truck when the hunter admitted that his buddy shot it, but he put his tag on it. The hunter, realizing what he just told the game warden said, “I guess I’m in trouble now.” Cases pending.


LOL

So based on the theory that it is "ok" since I have a wife and 3 kids, if I buy each a license, hand a shotgun and a chair my limit is 75 birds? Not to mention the money I saved on the 3 youth licenses?

Ugh I've been doing it wrong this whole time!!!! IDIOT!

People try to rationalize their wrong behavior. One way to rationalize is to get other people to say it's OK - or that they have done it too. Even if it's blatantly illegal, as long as I can find people to endorse it, then I'm OK.

Not long ago one of the cities around here posted a reminder on Facebook about leash laws. It was followed by several pages of comments and hateful arguments about why "my dog is different" and "my dog just loves people" and "my dog really needs to run free every day for its sanity". Basically people justifying and arguing that the LAW should not/did not apply to them.

Very simple. Why do you need more that 15 birds a day? Isn't that generous enough?

Get it on video so we can see his facial expression [/quote]
I know it is wrong to do what the guy was asking but i was just trying to see what the response would be but to the above post about getting a limit and going back thats where i say if you can shoot a two person limit in the same setting and the other person is there and hunting why is there such a stink about it . It is just like some that i know do on deer they will have one of there son's or wife or daughter tags with them and have a note wrote by them and if he shoots a deer calls them and tells them where it was shot what time and all the facts so if something happens and the GW checks him it should be all good , i am not saying it is right or legal btu there sometimes when laws just dont make much sense. [/quote]

Rule #8 [/quote]
I am just messing with ya'll good lord , yes i have know friends in the past that have done what mentioned and thats why the are no longer friends of mine because they are not good people to be around.It would be nice if they would up the limit on dove even though i dont hunt them anymore there are tons at our place and seems like i never really here are see that many hunting .

Great now i want some mudd bugs

Collectively those purposely cheating or blatantly breaking the regs reflects poorly on all of us. When they did the 3 year undercover investigation on the coast in the late 1980s, 92% of hunts had violations. Some included hunting under the license of another that we have been discussing here. It was related to guides, but 137 of the 210 charged where hunters from 6 states. And I am sure most of those charged had thought it was "ok" since they had paid for something, or because they did not believe in the regulation they were breaking, or because they thought at the time they could get away with it. Too, I am sure a few charged with something minor had no intent, or did not know they were doing anything wrong by following a guide's direction and just got caught up in the investigation. In fact I doubt there is a hunter on this forum that has never broken a hunting related law or regulation even though they may not know it, including me, but 1300 violations or 92% of hunts is crazy.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/14/us/210...o-poaching.html

I hadn't thought about it, but I bet we all know someone that shoots a limit in the morning and in the evening if they good spots on opening day. I don't shoot enough limits to consider that an option personally....but I'm pretty sure they've done it that way for years. Pretty tough to police it unless they were to get checked in the morning and then again in the evening with more birds....since you have time to go home and process them and come back out. It just goes to show that a lot of our regs are on the honor system as much as anything. Yeah the wardens bust a few people here and there but it's mostly on us to do the right things with the resources.

Well, I think that tells us who at least one person is that shoots double limits.

One of the guides on the coast was charged and lost his license for several years becasue he didnt report what was going on.

Once the charges were filed everyone started talking, the main sentences used.. "everybody was doing it" & "have yall talked to so and so he shot over his limit also".

75 birds! That would take like 4000 shotgun shells

Or 75. J/k I aint that good of a shot. lol. Here's to hoping for this season. 15 with 15.

I was just gonna say... I don't have enough money or time to get any more than 15 in one day.