.223 for whitetail ?

Need to get 6 year old a rifle for next season, he aint waitin any longer he wants to shoot his own now!! I use a .30-06 I think thats too much for him. Anyone use a 223 for deer or would 243 be allot better also if 243 is better does it kick quite a bit more? What are any of your guys youngsters shootin? Thanks in advance

Get him a 243 and use reduced recoil ammo. That way u don't have to buy him another gun in a couple years.

In my opinion, 22-250 or 243 would be a better choice. I will probably get bashed for the 22-250, but it is more than adequate. Most important thing is to work a lot on shot placement. Make sure he knows where to shoot and can put it there.

Can you kill a deer with a .223? Yes, but it's not the ideal caliber for a deer use a .243 with reduced recoil ammo.Once he gets the gun practice,practice,practice.

FYI.. Remington doesn't make the reduced "managed" recoil ammo in .243. Would have to got up to a .270 or .260 Rem.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/managed-recoil/managed-recoil.aspx

Might consider a semi-auto as an alternative way to reduce recoil. I've used mini-14's and a SKS with my kid's with good luck. But you need to greatly restrict the distance of the shot (which should be done with a 6 year old anyway).

Just my .02 cents.

Strange opinion but after taking a number wuth 223,I beleive its lower velocity makes it a better killer than 250 on deer and 243. Lot less external damage an loss.with total pass thru an collapse of lungs. The wound is from 7mag few weeks back, Noticed it and one of boys took her but now think should of let her go,as leg bone had some tissue still working, orange stain entry 223. off side exit IMG]http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv352/havaseat/newyears077.jpg[/IMG]

.223 will get the job done.

I've had a dialysis port in my chest and shot a Savage 25-06 -very light recoil.

30-30 w/ managed recoil ammo = very low recoil. The rifles are inexpensive, shorter length is easy for a kid to handle, and later you can always load it up with more powerful ammo if needed. My boy will be shootin' age here in a couple of years and that's what he'll be carrying.

243 or 308 with managed recoil are very light.... MR 308's allow you to upgrade to a full size rifle with just an ammo change, saving $$$ in the years to come

I hope this stays constructive...

Shot placement with a 223 would be very important. A 243 doesn't recoil that much harder.

Heck I was shooting 12 ga shotguns when I was 6. When hunting pheasants, I never noticed the recoil when I was shooting at birds.

The 223 is more than adaquate, but remember with the lighter bullet it is all about shot placement as well as with any caliber. My son is 8 and he shoots a 243 youth model, He never feels the recoil when shooting at an animal, he has killed a nice 10 pointer as well as hogs, I let him shoot my scoped 22 ans sks for practice year around, that way he will be ready when season comes around. I beleive the 243 would be the better choice, but that is just MY opinion.

Thats the ticket, shot placement for the young man would be a tough task with the .223, another reason my daughter, 10yr old is shooting a .243. She loves it, and it does not kick the chit out of her.

Good on you to get the young man out there, have fun at the range

Joshua age 7



Joshua shot his first couple of deer with a 223. We used 60 gr Nosler Partitions and made sure the ranges were 50 to 100 yards. I had my 300 out the window just in case, but it wasnt needed. Both deer dropped. With careful placement and a steady rest all should be good. Not that it matters, but all of Joshua's kills were in the panhandle on fairly large bodied deer. Including this cull he took in 06.

My son started shooting deer at age 7. He has killed 5 bucks, all one shot kills, with a .223. Since he was little I started teaching him how to shoot and where to hit a deer. He has had a painting of a deer in his room since his birth and when he was real small we would show him where he needed to hit a deer to make an ethical deer. As he got closer to killing time he would show me every night before I tucked him in where to hit a deer. He had done plenty of shooting and been taught where to aim before being allowed to take a shot. So basically what I am saying is a .223 will do the job with the proper education.




And they can kill with a bow at young age.

I like the 223 for deer hunting out of a blind. Heck I like 223's for everything.

Would not use a .223 I have seen alot of wounded deer with it, and most of the bullets are made for varmints not deer.

I think you'd be fine with either round, but make sure you don't get to light a rifle.

I was looking at picking up a Rossi combo chambered in 243, however, a friend of mine let me know his daughter shot one an it kicked like a mule.

There are some good well built bullets out there that can penetrate and do the job.

if you can find a rifle that fits him get it. the 243 does kick harder than 223 it is a law of physics. the larger heaver bullet will kick hard than a lighter one. and at that young of age a little more kick may be to much them

Shot placement is the key. I've never used a .223 but I literally don't remember how many deer I've killed with a 22-250. In fact I just killed a doe a couple of hours ago with it. I love the neck shot and with that a .223 will kill a deer no problem

my grandpa use to hunt em wit a .22, so im sure a .223 can kill just the same. if u can kill a deer with a bow and arrow, its hard to believe there is a gun that wont. (i know they kill differently and all that b.s., but they both damage vitals which kills deer, end result is the same) but personally id go with the .243 just because ive never noticed that much of a change in recoil.

Nosler Partitian and a well placed shot. 223 will be just fine.

My friends little boy is 5 and he killed all 5 tags this year using a TC with the interchangeable barrels. After losing one with a .204 he switched him to a 6.8 (110 grain I think) and said he killed the next 5 with it and none of them ran far. Also said the recoil isn't bad and if his 5 year old (turned 5 last month) can handle the recoil your 6 year old should. I would seriously look at this gun, because you can just buy barrels for about $190 and get him one every christmas and just keep getting bigger. I am buying one for my daughter.

.223 is more than adequate. It's not the size of the gun caliber that's important, it's placement of the shot.

223 will work, no doubt, but I'd rather have a little more...

And sure, placement is the key, but I'd rather have a well placed 243 or 308 than a well placed 223....

Mass and the cross sectional density just give them a lot more energy transfer capability....

And a lot better chance of using the same rifle in years to come rather than being relegated to the back of the safe someday

.223 with a proper bullet will do a fine job. Shot placement is key with ANY round you choose & the low recoil of the .223 will help prevent a flinch, which would ensure a bad shot with something that kicks too much & the kid is scared of.

Use a 60 grain Nosler Partition, 53 grain Barnes TSX or 64 grain Winchester Power Point & let the kiddo practice a lot, until you are absolutely comfortable with his ability. Don't get too short of a barrel, as it will be a lot louder & the muzzle blast may bother him.

If you do decide on a .243, Have someone load a bunch of light, low recoil practice rounds. You don't want to get a flinch started.

How would that change with a .243?

And I don't see how downloading a .243 to what a .223 can do will make the .243 better.

--To no one in particular.

I have used a .223 on whitetail since I was 9. I guess my dad thought that for a 9 year old girl, it would do the job. He was right, I am now 21 and I havnt missed a deer ive aimed that thing at since then. They do just fine if you are a decent shot.

Use what you want I thik a 223 is plenty, just make sure he gets the practice he needs. My sister inlaw shoots deer withour 223 and hit one low and far back this past weekend and we still got her, she ran a little further than they do with a good shot but was still dead when we found her and very trackable.

I say 223 because you dont want to scare him with too big of a gun or try to handle the recoil. That said I shoot only nosler partitions out of it at deer and truely believe that is the only reason we have the luck with it that we do.

matt

I agree...Shot placement and bullet.
I killed many deer as a kid with .223 and .243

Then again the feeder was at a minimum 80 yards and I was taught at that age to shot them in the neck ...I no longer do that.

If you do hit one and it runs off...
Best bet is to wait it out longer than you would with a bigger caliber before you go looking for it. Let it bleed out before you pushy it to the next county.

Also I think a copy named "fusion"? makes a .223 designed specificaly for deer.

Test high and low recoil bullets at a range in which your kid will be shooting. Make sure they are within an inch or so (say, between 50 and 100 yards, both bullets). Have them practice with the low recoil bullets, then slip in the normal ones when they are shooting at a deer. They won't know the different when shooting at an animal.

You can go with a larger caliber, and reduced recoil loads, or you can just go with a larger caliber and put a muzzle brake on it. I guided a young man last year that was very small, he shot a .308 with a muzzle brake, and since it didn't hurt him to shoot it, he shot it a lot, and was very proficient with it. One of the more capable young hunters I have guided. If you want to go with .223 that is fine, just remember that a larger caliber, with a bigger, heavier bullet is going to allow for a larger margin of error for a young shooter. As I have said before, and nobody likes it, the .223 generates more business for my tracking dogs than any other single caliber. I'm sure there are many more that are DRT from the round, and I myself would not hesitate to use it, but for a younger shooter there may be better options.

223 will work good. The question that hasnt been asked thats needs asking is has the kid shot before? how much? and what gun has he shot?

it all depends on this. if you stick too much gun in a kids hands its not good. Let the scope git him in the forehead kicks him harder than what he is used to. This stuff could possibly scared a youngster that is not used to it. I got a 3 yr old and 1 yr old and they will go 22lr to a 223 then when ever they get old enough and want a bigger gun they will get it. i still use my 223 for yotes to deer. Just dont let him get scared or hurt and be too scared of the gun too hunt

Short charges are known to so funny things,like go off like dynamite,

A .270 winchester with a reduced recoil 115 grain bullet from remington is good too.It says in their magazine it kicks less then a standard .243 winchester.

Good point. A bit more information... There are safe,reduced loads in some manuals. They use only certain powders. It is not as simple as putting less of just any powder in a case & calling it "reduced".

Whichever caliber you choose find a scope with enough eye relief so the child does not become scared of the recoil and start flinching. Once this happens it takes a long time to regain confidence and shot placement goes out the window as well. Practice is the main tool. Good luck.

My 11 year old has been shooting this 223 with 55 grain Winchester Ballastic Tips since he was 6. He has taken 7 deer and at least that many pigs, with 90% of them dropping in there tracks...With that being said, I have never let him take a shot greater than 130 yards and it was a pig and he dumped'em DRT!

2009 Buck-roughly 100 yards shot in the neck, never took another step

I agree with all that has been said, especially about the shot placement being the key. To get that it includes practice and a lot of CONFIDENCE in himself, which comes from practice. Most kids and adults for that matter get excited, nervous, etc.. when the time to pull the trigger on a deer comes (especially their first). Confidence that they can put the shot where they want it calms their nerves, and normally ends in success. I mention this because of the cheap built 223's and other calibers for that matter. We bought my son a Rossi 223 for his first rifle and it was the biggest mistake of my life. We put alot of rounds through the gun and never could get it to pattern, you'd have the first shot dead on and the second, third, fourth would be all over the place. I took the gun to a reputable gunsmith, and here is what he told me. The poor quality of the bedding on the rifle allowed for exteme barrell movement when it heated and cooled, in turn leading to erratic shot placement. Point being the rifle was on when the barrell was cool, but after it heated look out. Now think of a 6 year old shooting this gun and trying to build confidence in their shot!! Not knocking anyone's Rossi 223's, if you have one that will drive tacks I'm happy for ya. But I learned why they are so cheap, and went and got my son a better built 243, it changed his outlook completely. Whatever you do get him in the woods and enjoy it, my boy is 15 now and shoots anything we have in the case. I wish at times he was still young enough that I had to worry about overgunning him.

.223 is a varmint cartridge that some use for deer hunting, same with .22-250. better off with something bigger.

So all the deer killed while .223s were being shot at them actually died of old age before they were hit?

Thanks for all replies , only thing he has shot so far is 22's , my dad has a 222 I am gonna let him shoot that and then try a 243 my buddy has and see how he reacts to those and get a better idea then practice,practice,practice

A .223 will likely work for just about any game given shot placement. I do believe that with a correctly constructed bullet that's been hand loaded, and good shot placement, you can make it an effective killer.

That being said, all you guys with kids shooting .223's at deer, I'd be real careful. There is nothing more that can sour a young kid on hunting than seeing an animal suffer needlessly.

We are all hunters on this forum, but I doubt anyone likes to see a deer running around wounded for any amount of time. Please keep that in mind As a parent you have everything to lose by rushing their first kill and nothing to gain that can't be had when they are older.

That's not directed at anyone in particular just something that came to mind when reading this thread. I would also point out that I don't have any kids, so I don't know my [censored] from a hole in the ground on the subject. Funny how the people without kids or the people who's kids have grown up seem have all the answers.

I don't think anyone implied that you can't kill a deer with a .223...Heck, you can kill one with a .22 lr, not legally, but with shot placement it will work. Some of us are just saying that there may be some more effective options out there with larger calibers that can be made to have less recoil.

Yeah, he did say you'd be better off with something bigger. An RPG would be more effective than a .270, but you don't see people upgrading to that.

But he also said a .223 is a varmint cartridge. I'm confused as to how a round that will shoot through both shoulders of a whitetail is a varmint cartridge. It ain't the round that matters, it's the bullet you're launching. That's the game changer.

If I shoot 40 grain V-Maxs it's a varmint cartridge, but if I shoot 55 grain or heavier FMJs it's a man stopper, but if I shoot a 62 grain TSX I blow out both shoulders of a whitetail.

The obvious conclusion is that it's not a varmint cartridge, but it's a small bore cartridge that can do a lot depending on what you stuff it with.

Why put your kid thru the torment of chasing and probably losing a wounded deer after being shot by a .223?

If you just paid $7000 for Boone and Crockett hunt would you use a .223?

Why do most hunting professionals use a 30 cal or bigger bullet?

I have been the 223, 223 win mag, 243 route and everytime my son got buck fever the placement shot was never that good. My son now hunts with a 257 Weatherby Mag and he has shot Elk and many bucks with it. Never had to chase one more than 10 yards.

I wouldn't say that the solution to poor shot placement by a youngster is more recoil and muzzle blast.

And although I wouldn't pay $7000 for a hunt, I'd take whatever suited me. Which just might be a .223 so people would stop making that ridiculous argument.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hunting professionals". Most people with TV shows and endorsements shoot whatever their sponsors send them. Most guides who would carry a rifle are after dangerous game, which is silly to bring up in an argument about using .223s for deer.

I've seen wounded deer with 30-378 Mags as well and had to put dogs on them to finally track them down and kill them!

A 223 will kill any whitetailed deer in the world just as dead as a 373 H&H magnum will provided the bullet is put in the right spot!

I think there has been some very good advice given on this thread about the education and teaching a kid how to shoot and where. The only thing I'd add to it is if he hasn't shot a centerfire rifle yet, DON'T start him on one! If you do not have one, get or borrow someone's .17, .22, or .22 mag and get him used to this first. He will not develop any bad habits such as jerking the trigger or flenching with a small, quiet gun like he might with a louder .223! It will also be much, much easier on your pocket book buying a couple hundred rounds for one of these guns then a 223 for him to practice with.

Start him out at 20-25 yards and when he consistently can put 3 shots in a 1"-1.5" group move him up to 40-50 yards. Go slowly with it and be patient and before you know it he'll be shooting great. Watch him very, very closely so that you can coach him through sqeeeeeeeeeeeezing the trigger slowly!

Get a bunch of old hunting magazines and give him a pen or pencil and let him show you where to put the crosshairs on each picture while teaching him why you put it on the front 1/3 of the deers shoulder when he's quartering to you or behind the shoulder 6" when he's quartering away. Before you know it he'll know exactly what to do when that first shot opportunity comes his way!

Good luck, and most of all enjoy every second of teaching this little guy!!!

Damn skippy! You are right on the $$$$

I do not care what there magazine says I'll call BS on this one! I understand physics 1/2 way decent and know that a 12g shotgun with light loads does kick less then a 20g with standard loads but this is different. If you are pushing a 115 bullet with quite a bit more powder charge out of a .27 diameter bore vs an 80 gr bullet with less powder out of a .243 diameter bore there is no way in h--l that .270 will have less recoil!

That same situation can and does happen everyday of hunting season with a .270 or larger caliber!



In a heartbeat, without a doubt whatsoever! It will kill a 200+ lb 200" buck just as dead as a 70lb doe! That is a fact!



Honestly? Because 1/2 of them cannot shoot to save their arsh! The other 1/2 shoot whatever they are pimping for their high $$$ sponsors which obviously has a large impact on a lot of people that go out and buy chit that they do not need one bit! Hope you are not one of them!



This is good that your son now has a rifle that he's confident in and is doing a great job for him. But, I'll assure you a shot with that rifle through an area of any deer or elk that doesn't connect with either a vital organ or a major vein, and that animal will be just as wounded as one shot with a 223 using whatever bullet you like!

I will get him out and practice more with his 22 regardless, he is consistent with it,then start workin him up, as far as knowing where to shoot he knows exactly where, on the last one I got he pointed out I was alittle high which I laughed because I was. My wife gets upset any time we see a magazine in the store or where ever he points right behind the front shoulders and says "right there daddy" I think its great, her not so much. I was hopng to put off letting him shoot his own for a couple more years but after this season its all he can talk about, everyday - brings a tear to my eye-LOL,, he has been going out with me since he was 1 and a half, he even helped me gut my last 2, thanks for all the help and suggestions, a buddy has both a 223 and a 243 so i am gonna let him shoot each one and see his reaction

I am not saying you cant kill a deer with a .223, but why put your kid thru the higher risk. If your logic was solid than every cop would carry a 22 pistol but they dont...

Trust me I am not anti 223, I have several AR-15's. For me it comes down to money spent and risk mitigation. A bigger bullet makes a bigger hole and has a better chance of hitting something....

This argument is almost as old as the high fence / low fence debate...I am sure it will be debated on this board long after I am gone...

This is the same faulty logic you used in reference to "professionals". There is a difference in killing and stopping. DG guides shoot when an animal needs to be stopped, not just killed. Cops don't shoot just to kill people, but to stop them RIGHT now.

Bluedreaux

I got the new logic...I will shoot the deer in the knee with my AR-15 .223 to STOP him...I will also trade in my Micro Eagle 380 Auto Carry pistol for a Ruger 22 because I want to stop someone and not KILL THEM...

I think I will stick with my faulty logic and use my 300 Win Mag when hunting Axis in a few weeks...Oh cra$$ I forgot, I am going to be STOPPING the Axis with my Tenpoint crossbow...

Now I am really confused...

Call it what you will but thats what there magazine said not me.

Low recoil bullets means less powder, less muzzle velocity, and less recoil. That's why they call them low recoil. This bullets drop very quickly past 100 yards due to their low velocity.

Here is my 2 cents. It is clear that with good shot placement, you will kill a deer with a .223 or larger. However, if you make a less than perfect shot, you want to be making as big of hole as possible. This means you want a larger bullet, a soft point bullet, and you actually would like to have a slower bullet, which gives it more time to expand.

Usually this is a larger caliber. But, you do have to weigh how much the kid with flinch with a higher caliber bullet. So, get out there and let the kid shoot a .223, .243, .270, and .30-06. If he could shoot them all just fine, then there is no reason to take the .223, even though it will work. Take the biggest bullet, to ensure a kill.

And ILUVBIGBUCKS, yes, there are wounded animals at all calibers, but if I make a shot that doesn't hit the lungs, but just over them, then I am in no man's land. With a larger caliber, I make a bigger hole, and have a better chance at hitting the spine. Also, if you make a terrible gutshot, a bigger wound means more bleeding and internal damage, so you may find the deer 2 hours later as opposed to 2 days.

No you obviously don't get it. But rather than just say, "I don't want to use a .223", you insist on spouting random thoughts on "professionals" (which you still haven't explained), bragging about giving a Weatherby magnum to a kid who can't hit with a smallbore, and then drawing irrational conclusions about shooting bad guys with .22s and deer in their knees.

Your confusion about stopping vs. killing goes without saying.

so A .25 caliber is great for elk (900lbs)
but a .223 caliber is no good for a deer (150 lb animal)


Hmmmmmmmm.....

doesn't have to have more muzzle blast or recoil, have you read all the posts?

The 223 is just fine, there are many different loads out there that are designed for deer hunting in this caliber.the problem most of the loads for deer hunting have bullet weights heavier than 55gr and alot of rifles won't shoot them well.The light recoil/ report of the 223 is a benifit. It will be easier for the kids to learn to shoot.

Sorry, I should've used a quote box. I was referring to the guy to said that his son was pulling shots with a .223, so he's now shooting a .257 Weatherby.

It definitely does. But it happens way more with the .223. Take it from someone who runs dogs pretty much every weekend from October through December, then quite a few more till the end of February. On a side note .270 has been third on the list this year, but I think that is mainly due to it's popularity...there are a bunch of them out there. Whether you like the .223 or not (and I do) you have to realize that a larger heavier bullet does more damage, and allows for a larger margin of error. Also while my .25-06 is probably my favorite rifle, and I've had it longer than any other, I do like my big .30's too, and I assure you, I can shoot...spend lots of time and money keeping it so...mainly through a .223.

yea any day of the week and if was legal it would be a 22mag instead

For $7000 I bet I could find one tame enough to kill with a slingshot and dull rock.

probably could...I'd let you kill one of my cows for $7000, but why would you want to?

I have a 6 year old myself and a limited budget. I'm going to buy mine a .270 and go with the reduced recoil loads for the next few years. Once he is old enough he can step up to the normal loads and I won't have to buy him another gun. The gun can grow with him. Plus I'll take a 115 grain bullet over a little 55 grainer anyday.

Make sure to get a wooden stock on his 270. Synthetic stocks amplify the re-coil. I've got a nice used one for $375. Pm me if you're interested.

I know for a fact a 308 managed recoil shoots a lot easier on the shooter than a standard 243... we;ve done it for years with kids or women starting deer hunting. Beginners can handle more than you think, work them up to it, and it's not an issue... people are accustomed to seeing movies where people fly backwards when they shoot(or get shot), and it's just not the case...



As for the 380 vs 22LR comment, I'd rather have 10 rounds of 22 in a good pistol than 7 rounds of 380....

and I would MUCH rather have a woman or a kid that practices with a 22 pistol use it for defense rather than a bigger gun they were scared of and never practiced with...

Bluedreau

Obviously you know little about tact and etiquette. Not sure when giving your son a $350 Weatherby Vanguard 257 became bragging. Really no need for personal attacks on this forum.

Every guide or Hunting professional that I hunt with uses at least a 300 win mag. Hope that helps explain the professional question.

Like I said, I have several 223's. I just think a 30 cal bullet makes a bigger hole than a .223, thus giving more room for error. Same reason I think an Ak-47 is a better bugout gun than a AR-15.

Personally I would stay away from the 223 for deer, some states don't allow it for that reason(too small caliber). Texas allow any centerfire rifles. I would go towards a 243, 257, 260, or 7-08. These will all be a little lower recoil and big enough to get the job done. I know alot of people have killed deer with .22 caliber rifles, and again this is just my personal opinion.

I know plenty about tact and etiquette. I know that repeating what you've said isn't a personal attack. Sorry I made your feel bad hurt.

You said,

I said that if a kid can't hit with a .223, giving him more recoil and muzzle blast doesn't make sense. It's a bandaid fix to the problem of him not being able to hit.

And once again, what a hunting guide uses while guiding has nothing to do with my seven year old, who's not a hunting guide. But if he decides to guide me on a brown bear hunt this fall I'll be sure and take your advice and hand him a .300, at least.

Trying to stay out of this one but sorry if you can't hit it witha 223 why the hell would he be able to hit it witha 257wby.

Know several guides that hunt with 223 or 22-250 and for that fact even 222. Saying all guides use 300mag is a very bad attempt at saying a 300 mag is the perfect whitetail cartiage... Grizzly maybe but TX sized whitetail

Size of bullet doesn't kill. gut shot is gut shot.

Velocity/ RPM's and bullet construction kill

As far as how big a bullet is its not hard math.. theer comes a point when Velocity will equal out bullet wieght.

The only good cailber is a caliber that THAT SHOOTER can handle 100 percent effectively.
i wonder how many of our big bore shooters on here will shoot twice as good stepping down calibers...

Agreed BOBO. The best deer hunter I know uses a .222 and he kills lots of deer. He talks smack to me every year when I show up with a magnum.

I knew a guy on a old lease I was on, he was shooting a 17 Rem Fireball, it was the tiniest bullet I've ever seen. He saw it dropped them like a rock. I still find that hard to believe. I bet he has lost a few. Those guys on that lease were poor shots anyways. This lease was over 30,000 acres and on opening day my wife and I counted 34 shots seperate shots from all over the property and only one doe came in. Anyways back to the subject, I think a .223 will do the the job if the shot placement is good, which in reality, shot placement applies to ever round out there. But then again, you can't go wrong with a .243 either.

You know, Bobo, usually you know
what you are talking about so
I don't have to disagree with yo,
But this time I am not so sho...

Really what you said was almost 100 percent agreeable....
Point one: Yes, velocity will help equal the energy of mass.... but it can go down as the mass becomes negligible...in fact, a big slow bullet and a small fast bullet usually have the same energy four times in their lives...


And you are 100% right that bullet size doesn't kill....and that bullet construction is important...
Point Two: Bigger bullets allow for more better greater bigger expansion mushrooming stuff....

Yeah, heck, I've killed deer with 223 and seen kids kill them with 223... But as soon as possible I'd get that kid or lady into a 308 or 270 or 30-06 or something bigger than a 223...

I guide in S TX and 99% of the time the gun I carry is a .243 loaded with 100gr Sierra GK hand loads. There is not a deer in Texas that I'd hesitate to shoot up to 300 yards with that rifle!

My son also has a .223 he bought with his own $ when he was 7. I have not taken the time to develop a true 'tack driver' recipe for it as he stepped up to the 243 before I had the chance to do it. If I had a recipe that would deliver 1-hole groups at 100 yards I would dare to say that there isn't a deer in this state I couldn't put on his azz if he's within 200 yards and probably could with the loads I have right now that shoot under 1" at 100!

My mother killed every deer of her huting career with an old 222 Savage. I do not remember a single miss in all those years or a single lost animal! My father reinforced the last statement just now! She probably killed in excess of 50 WTs with that rifle with an old 4X Redfield scope on it. Granted, the longest shot she probably ever took was a little over 100 yards but every, last, single one was made into sausage!

The bottom line here was the gentlemen's question on whether the 223 was enough gun to get it done. Answer is without a doubt..............YES! There is not a deer in this state that is going to live if his child puts a bullet through his pump room.........PERIOD! Can he wound a deer with it, hell yes but that can happen with a 243, 308, 270, 7mm08.............whatever. Do I agree it is better to have a bigger caliber on a marginal shot, of course I do. You'd have to be an idiot not to! But if this child is new to shooting centerfire rifles the last thing I'd do is start him out on anything larger then a 223!!!!

Just seems to me that people think the deer in Texas are like the deer in Canada. 90% of my deer hunting is with a 30-06, but that is just because I love the caliber so much. I'm comfortable with it and I've been using the rifle for over 15 years. It just suits me like a faded pair of jeans. I won't ever knock someone who uses the 223 because I know for a fact it will drop anything in Texas.

223 is fine for Texas whitetail. Stick with good bullets (TSX or Partition) and let the young 'uns practice, practice, practice and practice some more.

I just let my experienced 11 year old shoot my Remington R-15 .223 REM this morning. He dropped a nice sized doe at 90 yards. Dropped her in her tracks.

He has always shot my Kimber 8400 .270 when hunting deer, but I just got this Remington and he begged me to let him shoot a doe with it. You can imagine how a 11 year old would love to shoot a camoflauge AR style rifle.

Anyway, the shot was perfect and the doe dropped in her tracks. I think this caliber is fine for smaller deer, it just needs to be sited in good and have a good shooter shoot it.

I stand corrected. Shot a doe with a 223 this weekend and dropped her in her tracks. Nice exit wound...

Very stand-up of you to post that.

I guess if you have a problem with shooting a deer with a .223 you REALLY have a problem with bow hunting. After all, there are definitely alot more deer wounded or lost with archery equipment than any "small" caliber firearms. I bow hunt whitetail almost exclusively - I guess I am being irresponsible since the beasts can be put down much more efficiently with a .308 than with a Rage two blade broadhead.

I think that the .223 if used in a judicious manner can be a very effective flying object. In the case with my 11 year old this past weekend, he is a very experienced hunter, an excellent shot, we made sure the distance was a very "safe" 90 yards, and he was going after a doe exclusively.

It all worked out fine. I agree that the .223 should be used only in very specific instances, but in the right hands and in the right time it can be used effectively.

Have to agree with this statement. My one caveat with using the .223 is that I'd stress the "right hands & right time" qualifier. We're all rightfully proud of our kids, but I think we need to be really careful in determining whether our sons/daughters have the maturity necessary to overcome their natural excitement when they get a deer in the crosshairs. I've seen too many adults get hit by buck fever and get a bit sloppy with their shots, and kids - especially new hunters - can be even more susceptible. While a heavier caliber doesn't make up for sloppy shooting, it does offer a greater margin for error than does a .223, and that margin can make the difference between a successful hunt and a disappointing one.

If a kid is already a proficient hunter (and not just a good shot) and is capable of understanding and accepting his limitations, the .223 can be an effective deer caliber. That said, however, I wouldn't put a .223 in the hands of a brand new hunter his first time or 2 in the stand. A bigger bullet, moving slower, won't punish the shooter that much. Certainly not as much as the disappointment of wounding a deer and having it get away.

All that said, I started hunting deer with an Aussie .303 Enfield with a steel butt plate. Rifle was longer than I was tall when I first got it, and I took more than my share of deer with it. My own son's first experience with a high-power rifle, however, was with a Marlin .30-30 with a good recoil pad.

Ron always brings wisdom with his posts...

+1

I always say that humans are the only creature in the animal kingdom that can be stupid and still reach maturity. While every other species has the good grace to get killed off, we invented cops, insurance, and antibiotics. M'self, I think I musta just been lucky. :-)

Never thought of it this way! But, I believe you are 100% right on time!!!!

The rossi 243 youth model does have alittle kick to it....


Just my 2 cents here...The 204 Ruger is a blazeing fast round...a 6yr old could handle it I believe....And it can put down a deer with ease

What bullet would you recommend for the .204?

[q

uote=Bluedreaux]What bullet would you recommend for the .204? [/quote]

I know afew bullet makers now make factory rounds for the 204 Ruger..Hornaday was the first I believe to make bullets for the 204.

I know they come in 32 grain and believe 34 grain Run close to $20 bucks for a box of 20..Kind of pricey... I have no persoanl pref..for 204 bullets

.204 huh? A 32 grain bullet going super fast for deer???

That's what I thought. The whole point being made here (that you've apparently missed) is that the .223 is good for deer if used appropriately, just like anything else. (HINT-That means putting the right bullet in the right spot.)

I'll clarify for you, since reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. "A 32 grain bullet" isn't necessarily deer bullet regardless of how fast you push it. It depends on the bullets construction, which you've obviously not taken into account based on your response.

That's the kinda crap that's lets deer run off wounded and then you'll come on here and pronounce that only a .300 alphabetsoupmagnum will kill Texas whitetails.

Man, this thread still has a life....

It's still going, but it's been dead for a while.

Kinda like the tremendously long, bloodtrail-less, death runs deer make after you shoot em through the heart with a little ol .223...

And it sounds like some of the folks need a couple of bran muffins way worse than they need any gun!

I agree. What I dont get is why people DO knock em. there isnt anything wrong with them, especially with our small TX deer. Now, hunting up north may be different, but i wouldnt know cuz i have only hunted in TX. Ive been using a 223 since i was 9 and have had very good luck and very fun hunting experiences. I have never wounded a deer with one. But then again im a small woman who cant handle a bigger gun, and like someone said earlier " the best gun for a person is what suits them...." or something like that...

I have both and have never wounded a animal with them.I have killed a 250 pound with the .223 and knocked it down in its tracks.The secret is ammo.The Hornady TAP is the hardest hitting bullet I have seen.

I LIKE TUFF GUYS!!! WHO GET ON THE INTERNET,HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN LOOK FOR A WAY TO START A FIGHT...1ST I can tell you know nothing about bullets..2nd why am I wasteing my energy talking to an idiot like yourself..hmmmm oh yea, I forgot I like ''TUFF-GUYS''...3RD I have never nor do I own a .300 alphabetsoupmagnum for Texas Whitetails..4th Your like I guy I know at work..I bet you believe, If you paint a Trash-Can GOLD..It will be worth more...Its still just a Trash-Can...Your a Idiot BluedreauxRatard...

What a well thought out post.

I pointed out that you 1) Didn't understand our previous converstation about bullet construction and 2) Were likely to wound a deer if you used a .204 with just any 32 grain bullet.

You said that I "know nothing about bullets" then continued on with your personal attack and talk of gold trashcans. If I have posted anything in error, you'd be my friend to point that out. But your post offered nothing of substance to the discussion.

The moderators have made it clear that differences of opinion will be tolerated, but personal attacks won't. LINK See #6 and #7. Also see #9 and #10. Although the rules don't specifically address mocking those with mental handicaps, I believe the spirit of that rule (no racial or sexual jokes, for example) is plainly seen.

If you'd like to discuss bullet construction or selection I'd be happy to explain what I know. But name calling does neither of us any good.

I also believe that it's entirely possible we'll never see eye to eye on this issue. However, when dealing ethical issues such as this, I think it would be wise to base our opinions on fact and substance. Hence the "discussion" nature of these forums. If no one ever challenges our long standing personal thoughts and opinions, how will we ever think critically about our choices and grow as outdoorsmen?

You guys (agattusojr & bluedreaux) might want to keep in mind that calling someone an idiot or saying that reading comprehension isn't someone's strong suit both constitute personal attacks. I've got the feeling that if you hope to stick around here, you'll either up the age level of your dialog or just take it out on the playground, where the rest of us don't have to sift through it to get to the grown-up parts of the discussion.

The only real "secret" to choosing an appropriate caliber is to inform yourself and use common sense. Stupid, no matter how loudly it is shouted, is still stupid.

Chill a little bit.

I was called a retard.

And you'll call me out for it? Don't think so.

All better chill, last warning.

i'd have to agree there. when you're aimed in and fixing to pull the trigger, recoil is the last thing on your mind. if it is, i think maybe you shouldn't be hunting. obviously there are things to be taken into consideration with this, but i think y'all get my point.

My warning has been duly noted. I'll try my best to not get called a retard again...

Most folks gave up on the "Daddy, he hit me first" defense about the time we were in the 2nd or 3rd grade. Just a thought...