A/R counties..post up your Tall & Narrows

I understand the need for... and fully support the effort behind A/R (Antler Restriction) counties. It has made a marked difference here in Deep East Texas. However, it seems more and more we are seeing bucks with a tendency to grow tall, narrow antlers. They will have good tine length, pretty good main beam length and can put on mass with time...but won't make the minimum A/R spread requirement of 13" inside. Or if they do, they won't until they are 4.5-5.5 yrs. old.

I have game cam pics and video of 3 different 8 points and one 10 point that won't make the minimum. Partly because they are young 2.5-3.5 but if not for the inside spread restriction.... these would make great bucks for kids or beginners. I won't post them all, but one example below.

We have bucks with all antler shapes/types here...no question about that. But there seems to be an increase in taller, narrow 'racks' than what I've seen in the past and I keep pretty good photographic records from one year to the next.

If you have anything similar please post your pics and share your thoughts and observations.

Not huge but I have three years of pics of this 11 point. He loves to hang out at feeders. Have had him at 15 yards several times.

I thought a few years of Antler Restrictions was going to cure all of this, and there would be plenty of nice deer in every age range? All they need are a few years.... what has it been now, 15?

There should be tons of 4.5-7.5 year old bucks out there now.

There would be if all hunters followed the rules. I was sitting in a small cafe Sunday and a man on his cell phone at the next table said," I got a buck today." No, it was just a little bit shy, But
the one Bill shot was nowhere close to making it." Of course, I was in East Texas.

That I know of, hunters have taken at least 10 deer so far this year in Mills County over 140, including several over 150 and a 165. 20 years ago there would have been 2-3 for an entire season and many years there wasn't a single deer that broke 140.

Exactly right. We used to own 800 acres in Goldthwaite (Mills County) back then and I did a lot of hunting on that property. A 110-120 class deer back then was considered pretty good. Lots of deer, but not good quality. Turkey out the Wazoo...though.

If 99% of them make 13" by 7.5 years old, then the antler restrictions are doing EXACTLY what they were designed to do
In the 2 years we have had them for muleys up here, I have seen a very positive difference. I personally wish the entire state had antler restrictions for WT AND mule deer!

Narrow 10 point (2 of his points don't show in the first pic because of the angle). Will probably get wide enough eventually...still a young deer.

But I feel as if I am seeing more bucks through the years with antlers that are going UP and not so much out????

I wouldn’t go that far, as a lot of areas don’t need them.

But in high pressure areas, they certainly do help grow bigger bucks

People always post up the 10% of mature deer that don’t make AR’s and forget about the 90% that were harvested and able to make it to maturity because of them

Agree I don't want them either!

Anyone have any ear tip spread data for east texas/northeast texas bucks? I'd bet if those top two bucks are mature and have a 16 or so inch ear tip length they make 13 inches. I think part of it is just being willing to take the risk.

I have several of these guys, but he's probably the tallest and heaviest

I have no problem with ARs. Just wish some of the game wardens would show a little leniency on fully mature bucks that are close. I shot a post mature eight point five years ago that never gave me a straight on view. When I walked up on him my heart skipped a beat for a minute when I saw how close to 13" he was. Turned out to be 13 1/2" spread. But I believe the spirit of the law is not to keep us from shooting 8 year old deer.

^^^^^

Not this 'people'.

I appreciate what A/R has done over the years in the area I hunt. I would submit that compliance in East Texas is likely much less than in other areas...I am sad to say. Just the same...the results of A/R speak for themselves. We've always had pretty good genetics here. The issue in the past has been Age Structure. Too many bucks being taken before maturity.

I might argue that in certain locales (10%) is the number of bucks (3.5 yrs or older) with narrow spreads, but of course I have no way to prove that. Only anecdotal evidence of increased sightings where I hunt.

I am 100% for A/R and with normal genetic propensities...the vast majority of bucks WILL be greater than 13" inside at 3.5 or older. Too...you have to be careful not to mistake a young deer (with good genetics, good antlers) for something that clearly will never get better.

I do wonder however (IF compliance were good)....over a long period of time would we be favoring tall, narrow racked bucks over wider ones enough to make a noticeable difference in the herds?

I have a few Bucks that will probably not meet AR's. I am not in an AR county What I am thinking since what I do is I normally charge $100 per point for any Buck. But what I am thinking about doing is if a Buck is less than 13 inches wide only charge $50 per point. That way maybe I can entice a few hunters to help me take those out of the gene pool. Normally hunters only want larger Bucks. Maybe this is a way to help me out to get better genetics. What do you think? Maybe even the counties that have AR's need to think about doing something like this every few years..

AR’s work, sure there’s gona be the exceptions here and there but overall they’re working

Haha....there ya go. That buck is a 'chunk' too, great body size....just lacking nice antler shape. And I thought mine were bad.

I actually think this one would make a great mount, but you won't catch me pulling the trigger.

I was told if you hunted with MLD tags that antler restriction was not enforced on that property.How hard is it to get MLD tags?

All I know from ranching and through the years raising a variety of different animals that you try to breed to get the best out of an animal. You don't breed inferior animals and expect all of a sudden you are going to get something exceptional as an offspring. The only way I have seen to change the genetics is every year get rid of the worst examples. Also take out the oldest females. Keep doing this year after year keeping the best and taking out the oldest females. It has worked for me on Ibex and I would think it would work on any type of animal. You may be seeing a few better bucks but year after year having narrow antlered bucks breeding females that are half of the equation is eventually going to bite you in the rear.

---> TPWD MLDP

Here's a couple that probably made 13" but I let them walk.....

One more....

The whole state doesn’t need the AR restrictions. Some area actually have 3 buck counties.

I can see where it might help in counties with a decent herd to start with; however the rules which came with the "automatic kill every spike" bonus tag, has decimated North/east counties that didn't have the numbers to begin with; Even TPWD admits it was limited data, and on purpose do not have data sets in the last 7-10 years

We'll never have anything but anecdotal information from the guys at the gas station/coffee shop until there's a check in system;

It was a pretty morning for sure. Not too cold (about 33°F) here.

Saw five bucks and two Does. One got past me very early. Walked straight across the old logging road and into the brush before I could get a good look at it, but judging by the body size...an actual mature deer. Then had a small 8 point show up at 7:30 (plenty of light by then), took a few pics. Then at 9:00 a.m. I had 3 bucks come by in the span of about 20 minutes.

A tall, narrow 8 (not legal), another 8 with a busted off G3 (also too narrow) and the last one (legal but not what I am looking for) I didn't get a picture of it, because he caught me opening the plexiglass window on the blind. He just locked in on the blind and stood there. I was holding the window half open with my right hand and looking at the buck though my binoculars with my left. This went on for several minutes, me not moving. Finally, he just didn't like the situation and slowly eased off into the brush.

So at least the deer were moving. But that's also the problem this time of year...the bucks are 'moving/traveling' and you don't have long to size them up...if you hunt in wooded areas like I do.

I was in my Daughter's stand this morning and it is situated about 200 yds. inside the wood-line from the pasture. The deer feel comfortable back in the woods and in the evenings especially...they will 'stage' there an hour or so before sundown before venturing out into the pastures at dark.

The area I have the stand in..is a natural funnel due to terrain features. We are typically only looking at about 150 yds. of woods with a 90°-120° angle of view. So its's asking a lot to get any particular buck to walk through it. I have shooting lanes carved out...but you have to stay alert (see video below).

Anyway, no mature bucks yet for me...but its early in the season still. I'll just watch the tall, skinny, young bucks until something better comes along. I always enjoy my time in the woods...no matter what shows up.

Here’s one from a few years ago.

I have never understood the fascination on the amount of exposed bone on a buck's head. The excessive obsession with antlers will eventually lead to the non-hunting public turning against us. They can and have voted to pass laws in other states that have seriously impacted hunting. And with the number of displaced liberals moving here from CA, you would be a fool to think it will not eventually happen here.

I think you should be able to tag any buck you want. Cant eat the antlers.

I don't believe there's any question that antler restrictions have given hunters and perhaps even many biologists an education on antler development. IMO, it's easy to see how the antler width will vary between bucks that are the same age, much like people grow to different heights. And just like people, the antlers on a given buck grow thicker once the width has reached its full potential. It's something that hunters were never able to see for themselves when any buck was legal for harvest.

I'm also of the opinion that AR's may provide hunters with an education on high-grading and whether or not AR's can impact the genetic makeup of deer in a given area. An overabundance of bucks with tall and narrow racks would be clear indication that both of these are in fact valid assumptions.

The photo below that I ran across in one of the deer hunting rags works well as describing my thoughts. IMHO, anyone who believes the buck on the left will eventually develop a rack that's as wide as the buck on the right is dreaming.

While I've read many articles that explain how antlers grown for pedicles that are a part of the skull. I've yet to read any studies that cover the variances in how pedicles can be positioned in the skull. Like the eyes in a human which vary in their spacing, you would think the angling of pedicles could vary in deer. If this is true, these differences would explain why some bucks develop racks that grow in a more upward direction than other bucks.

Although the author doesn't address this in the article at the link below, the photos do seem to show that bucks always develop racks that carry roughly the same ratio of height to width.

Link

If you want legal deer let them live until they are 5 years old.
Most of the pics on this post are young deer.

Tall but narrow buck in Houston County

Good example.

You are about 60 miles West of me...but I have the same thing here...increasingly.

I am in Denton County and on our place we have a narrow fork horn problem. We have a very big very old buck that is a heavy narrow fork horn that I have had in my scope the last three years and can not kill him because of ARs. The other day I had a yearling walk through with a very similar rack as his. We need to kill them both but can not because of ARs. I think the rules are a net positive, we are low fenced with brown and down neighbors so with ARs the bucks at least get to be three before they are shot. I sure would like to be able to take out undesirable characteristics like our wonky buck though!

It's a problem that could be easily addressed through the technology that is now available to most hunters.

When you get a photo of an older buck like the one above that won't meet the AR's, send it your local TPWD biologists so that he can review the photo and send you an email approving the harvest. If he feels the buck for some reason doesn't satisfy the "spirit" of the AR's, he/she will reject it. Keep the email on your smartphone as proof should you need to show it to a TPWD officer.

I was not aware that was an option...kind of seems weird that they would make exceptions to a law on a case by case basis. I will try to get some photos of him for sure. I have only seen him once each of the last three seasons and then saw what I think is his son opening day this year.

Not an option at this time. I was only suggesting it as a way for TPWD biologists to use current technology to apply their knowledge beyond their MLDP efforts.

This weekend I watched a small 5 point "basket" rack getting interested in some does. His body size was small as well as his rack. 2 other legal but young deer were not interested in does yet at all. I really wish that I could cull that small old basket rack!! I saw an old buck come to the processing plant that had a tall forked antler inside the ears on one side and the other antler was freshly broken off half way up, lol. SPIKE!

The only way to circumvent Atler Restrictions is to become MLDP.

A GW or TPWD biologist cannot give you permission to break the law.

Screwm, about time for cowboys and leftist scum anyway! I hunt horns so I can spend more time in the field hunting. Just because you are not a serious hunter does not mean the rest of us have to be like you. Bending over for the leftists is not the way to deal with them, might be what you are used to but I plan on making every one of them uncomfortable as possible.

What is most concerning is that if high-grading is slowly happening and hunters are shooting the width out of the herd, the only way the TPWD will become aware of it is through the MDLP. With this being a more limited cross section of the total harvest, you would think the vast majority of these deer with tall and narrow racks are being seen by hunters who have no means to report them. After all, they're obviously not going to show up with one at a TPWD Reporting Station.

You have to keep in mind that earlier AR's based on points did lead to high-grading in the state of Mississippi. Because points have been the more traditional way to score a rack, it became the first AR approach adopted by the state's Wildlife Commission. Allowing hunters to take bucks with four or more points worked completely backward from the desired goal because it opened the door for hunters to take young deer with the best potential while forcing them to leave the lesser bucks alone. I have to believe it was the failure of Mississippi's Four-point Rule that played at least a partial role in the TPWD adopting rules based on spread. Mississippi has since tossed the Four-point Rule and now follows one based on inside spread or main beam length.

A change in the current TPWD AR's that would allow hunters to take ANY buck with a minimum main beam length might be another way for hunters to take these older deer with tall and narrow racks.

Always remember that TPWD started AR's with limited data, in only four counties. There are NO other harvest data since implementation, in any county, of relevant numbers. Some counties were placed under AR's with as few as SIX deer in the data sample for the county.

TPWD own contracted outside scientific review told them it was bad science, lacked relevant data, and had no way to gauge success other than anecdotal references.

Without check stations implemented it will NEVER have real data either way.

Dan is absolutely right about the high grading virtually destroying the herd in Mississippi.



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Remember an old rancher once said "You get what you breed."

And I've said repeatedly, Ranchers don't routinely eat the herd bulls, and expect it to help the herd.



IF age alone was to help, then it has had 15 years to make a major difference. Taking 3 years off without hunting deer would have a better and faster approach to aging the deer herd.


And allowing the decimation of ANY spike any time in an AR county, is detrimental in counties without vast herds to thin out.


I'd love to see the 2nd spike tag in Foard County.... love it. And AR's wouldn't matter, the bad deer out there are more than 13 inches

Well good for you, you hunt horns. Cant you do that without ARs? Wouldn't that still allow you to spend more time in the field? Seems to me that doing away with ARs would be right up your alley. As to the "serious hunt" bs I will put my hunting experience up against you any day. I have taken 94 deer, 25 elk, 17 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, a mountain goat, 4 bison, countless hogs and have been to Africa 5 times. Can you beat that record? Yeah I didn't think so.

Bottom line, and you may be too blind to see it, hunting has been put on the ballot in several states and it is always the trophy aspect that causes it. ignorance of that fact is dangerous. Hunt horns all you want but talk up the meat part of the equation if you want to prevent the clowns moving in from passing laws that you won't like. I watched them do just that very thing in my native CO. They moved in and we lost our right to trap and most of the bear hunting. By the time we figured out what they were up to the laws were already passed. Read and heed.

Gentlemen....if you guys want to argue merits and methods....please start your own thread before you get this one locked. Thank You. Flint.

The one if he came to my stand would probably be taking a dirt nap. Don't see those around where I am much.

Something that is never addressed is that does actually genetically affect a buck as much or more than bucks. Taking out a genetically inferior buck, such as the tall narrow ones doesn’t necessarily mean you are getting rid of that gene.

That doesn't negate the genetic impact created by removing a given buck.

I only remove the fluid that's in the pan when I change the transmission fluid in my truck. The fluid that remains in the transmission doesn't negate the impact of the new fluid I added to the system. And just like adding new transmission fluid, I create a genetic impact using what I can see and gain access.

IMO, to say you're not impacting the genetic makeup of the deer that live in a given area is like saying you don't change the volume of a bucket of water when you scoop out a cup of it. Of course you do. The only question for debate is by how much. Given that research has shown that deer stay and live their entire lives within a relative small area, it would seem the impact would be much greater than some might lead others to believe.

That is correct. That is why as I wrote earlier to change genetics over the years every year the oldest Does need to be taken out. But if you are in a AR county this will actually do no good because you are having the Bucks which breed in the narrow antlers still breeding the Does. If you could take out those Bucks and also each year take out the oldest Does then eventually you could get the type of Buck you are looking for. But as it is the only thig that will change is that the narrow antlered gene will become stronger.

This is a nice big bodied buck (typical for East Texas) but won't make the A/R minimum antler spread. Too bad, would help fill the freezer.

Why do I read so much about selective hunting having basically no influence on a low fence free range herd if this "high grading" is such an issue?

It will have an influence if everyone practices the proper way of changing over a period of time the traits they are trying to get rid of. But that giving human nature is not very likely. Plus in my opinion which means squat unless the TPWS changes the rules it will only get worse.

Yep, good example.

Might continue to add tine length and mass, but not likely to ever get the inside spread desired.

He got old because no one can shoot him. The neighbors and I have watched this sucker for 4 years. A big three point the first year we saw him. Should of but didn't.

You guys crack me up. If you don't want them around SSS.

Legally and ethically wrong. Please don't make suggestions like that.

Agreed. Even if nobody knew I did something wrong I would know I did it.

Yep.

A good test of a man's character/ethics is to see what he will do when no one is watching. Good for you Sir.

He looks better than 13”

Been watching this NE TX deer for several years now. I'm pretty sure he's a five year old this year and would love to let my daughter take him, but he's just too close to risk it!

That's a nice one. Definitely give him a good look, I believe he will make it OK.

This one was just posted on the TPWD Game Wardens FB page. It was reportedly killed by a hunter in Houston County who exceeded bag limits on bucks.

I think one thing being overlooked in this thread, and in general with regards to genetics, is bucks are only half the equation. Doe carry 50% of the genetic material that goes into the next year's crop of fawns, with absolutely no way to monitor what kind of offspring they throw. The only way would be to closely monitor a given doe, and the offspring she throws, over a long period of time to determine the genetics she's contributing to the herd. The problem (one of them anyway) with this method is, by the time you get any usable data she's aged out of breeding and has been contributing, positively or negatively, to the program the whole time.

Point being, every "plan" to better a given herd is wrought with challenges.

I hunt Freestone County, historically known to be over hunted and poached. I grew up hunting property that has been in my family since 1912. Killed my first deer there back in the early 80's, a 12" wide mature 8point that was considered a good deer for the property at the time. This was still back when you could watch a young buck and let hi walk, only to hear a gun shot across the fence after he walked off in that direction. Opening weekend sounded like a war zone in our area. The "brown it's down" mentality ruled.

In my mid-20's I ventured out and began hunting leases from central, ranging out to west Texas. Saw and killed plenty of nice deer in the process. Got tired of the transient situation, bouncing from one lease to another every few years because of price increases, land sales, etc, and decided to go back to my roots (family land) about 12yrs ago. After not hunting the place at all for about 15yrs, I immediately noticed a difference in the herd on our property. More deer, and nicer bucks, also had hogs which weren't present when I left. Also noticeable were, and still are, the decrease in the amount of gunfire heard. Where I used to count shots easily into the double digits on a given hunt of opening weekend, now I might hear a half-dozen. And I know at least some of those are hogs being taken, where we had no hogs before.

Then came the antler restrictions somewhere about 5yrs +/- ago. I was indifferent because we were already not killing young deer, so for me it was a wait and see type of deal. Several years in now, and I am still not convinced the law has done as much to impact the herd as much as just a general change in the dynamic of how our, and the properties around us, are being hunted compared to how it was just 15-25yrs ago. Since I've returned to hunting the property we've had several deer taken off the place that are over 16" wide, a few 17", and two 18" wide. It was crazy to think this would happen in our particular area of the county when I was young. Small deer were just what we had, even the mature bucks. But given time, and the absence of pressure, the herd worked itself out. Funny how nature accomplishes things like that. This year I witnessed two bucks absolutely brawling, never seen before on our land. There is actually competition to breed taking place. We have deer making and using scrapes, which rarely ever happened when I was young.

Take the above rambling for what it's worth, likely not much. Just my experience.