One more reason AR's are not good

Had a customer send me a pic of her deer she got on there land and told me that they went to take the deer into the processors and they got the warden called on them and that the processor refused to let them have the deer back till the warden got there and now they have got to deal with that .I havent heard from her what the outcome was .But this is an 4.5 Yr at least and would not have been very much more that what he was.
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That sucks but why would you take an illegal deer to a processor?

It's not up to the processor to make that call , i know what our local GW has told my grand parents and he said they didnt have to and he wouldnt be on them if he found one like that in the cooler.

It sucks sometimes..but how else can the TPW keep people from shooting young bucks? I also have seen many 4yo+ bucks that were not 13" wide, but they need some way of letting the young ones grow up.

Man i dont know it's sure is a catch 22 on it , i know if i saw one that was older and was needing to be culled out i'd shoot it and just do it myself.

and we all wonder why big brother has to tell us to act.

What ???? Thats the thing you pay over 700K for a place and you get told how to manage it and we wonder why that some say F it i am going to do what i want on my place .....yeah i guess if that the way you feel about saying Big Brother BS i hate when people say that junk.

Lets not talk about all the big bucks east Texas had pumped out this year.

Lets talk about the one 3.5 year old 8 pointer that was shot that didn't meet the antler width

Private land managing a public resource.

No they don't.

well dagum buddy, its one thing to do it behind closed gates, its another to get on a public forum and say it. i am not one of the "the government is the devil" types at all but big brother is here and as powerful as he is because people still feel the need to be outlaws and then flaunt it.

cmon sneak, its for herd health



and HUGE antlers that we all want!

What in the world are you talking about

nothing.

What was the width? Just curious

I hate AR's, there is no way they should be able to tell us what to shoot. There is no valid argument as to why this is forced on everyone. I like big bucks but I don't like the fact that it's forced on us.

Get on MLD and you won't have to worry about AR's

Its the Law! Obey it!!!! no excuses!!!! The person who shot this deer is a law breaker. Owning the land dose not change a single thing. Just because you don't like a law does not mean you can ignore it! Stupid is as Stupid does!

Don't hold back man, tell us how you really feel

Yea i have to agree with some of what Kenneth say's. this is my first year to hunt, and myself i'm not a Horn's just like the meat, but the county i hunt has made me a gotta go for the horn's shot. To me cause of the AR, because we cant take any doe, and only one spike. My 0.2

Kenneth - Just curious on why your customer says the deer is 4.5 yrs at least. Did she have the jawbone aged? You can’t tell the age from these pics. I’m on MLD in East Texas and when the jawbones are pulled, there are a few surprises, mostly deer that was thought to be older than they were.

Yes it's up to processor to make call. They measure everyone and most just turn you away if it's not 13in, not keep the deer and call GW...that's what isn't there call. Just like if someone came to my house asking me to keep illegal goods...heck no. I'd send them away but wouldn't call cops.
That deer doesn't even look close to being legal by ar standards...why do people keep taking these to processor! Crazy to me...been better to call GW yourself and say you made mistake if your going to turn it in anyways...

Doesn't look 4.5 to me either. But looks can be deceiving.

Did you see the mandible yourself, Kenneth? What was your estimate of the age? Of course, even the pros can disagree, but I think he's younger than 4.5.

Amen! Plus 1000! Seen more wall hangers this year than any yr I remember.

It's harder to tell a deer's age just by looking at it! It's also hard to judge the width of the antlers, but at least if you aren't sure you can and should let it walk.
Chances are there are bigger bucks in that pasture so why take a chance on breaking the law which was the first mistake, and then the second was taking it to a processor. He doesn't want to answer t a game warden why he possesses an illegal deer, thus the reason he called it in.

I like big bucks and I cannot lie!
You otha brothas can't deny!

Hu so you have ran a processing plant then , they will turn down a deer that is not legal it's not them that shot it and have no interest in the deer other than cutting it up
You need to know before you say

Rofl.

Well that's what the GW had told them and I think it's a 3.5
Guess I didn't sat the in the first post.
And if this was not in an area that there was a lot of deer and yes a lot bigger deer I would say they was wrong for shooting it but this type of deer is not what I would say is a buck I would want on my place.

Break the law, turn in the evidence, then get mad because you have to deal with the consequences

First off dude, one of my best friends runs a processing plant, another is the county game biologist that's up there often aging the deer as part of his job.
You need to know before you say instead of going off what your grandpas cousins sister told him!
Any large processor that's ran legally doesn't take in illegal deer! They can be fined! Just like if no tag,etc. Did you know they even keep records of deer coming in and also get your hunting license number?
Bottom line is...someone shot a illegal buck then turned it in. You should buy your friends a tape measure and some better binoculars! Rather than gritching over an 11in buck!

Stop yer gritching, dude.

Right on sneaky

I hate that it's the public resource crap. If it's such a public resource I should be able to write off corn on my taxes as a donation to txpwd or to palo pinto county for feeding their deer.

Or they should be putting feeders up my place to care of their deer herd. So I don't have to see them walking around looking like the walking dead around July.

Don't shoot basket headed bucks and be surprise when big green shows up

This is the problem with this country. Some people like laws and rules more than logic and free thinking. The law was designed to keep people from shooting yearlings, this one needed to be shot and the GW needs to say, "good cull. don't shoot a young one like that"

And it will be that way for a while as all the deer with good genes get a chance to age. The problem is that smaller racked deer will bs allowed to live longer and breed more. Eventually the results will suck. I've read some extensive studies on it. Of four different AR's studied, the only one that improved B&C scores over random harvest was to protect bucks under 3 1/2 with MORE than 6 points. That's right...shoot any deer with 6pts or less until they are 3 1/2, then they are all fair game. Protecting narrow racks eventually produces narrow racks. It takes time to show up, but it IS what happens. Also not that random harvest produced the second highest B&C scores of the five methods tested. That's 4 different AR's plus random harvest.

AR's absolutely result in higher scoring racks. Anyone arguing with that fact just ain't paying attention.

But. Since when is it a govt entity's valid responsibility to force behavior that improves rack score?

People who support freedom restricting laws like this were the tattletale wusses in grade school. Always trying to make folks play by their rules.

They are fun to torture though, so they do have some redeeming value .

Maybe if ARs stood for Age Restrictions instead of Antler Restrictions, things would be different.

looks 2 1/2-3 yrs to me....but what do I know...

I bet he woulda tasted just as good as a buck with wider antlers.

Oh boy your just one of those not it all type that don't know crap I can tell
I just posted this kind of to show how messed the AR are in some counties
Yes I know the laws and what your supposed to do
Yeah it's hard to post things on this site and get good results just like the ones who keep on an on about the score and all , the fact is I think a lot of people just come here to argue and say what they think they know and try an be the great white hunters
I think I am going to back off and just be a little less on here for a while , I try and give my thoughts and advise to others like we should but keep seeing people say I am wrong or the next one is wrong
I kind if went off in the first part and I was wrong for saying that so I do admitt that was wrong

Welcome to the world of AR lovers.

I'm not sure how true it is but my Taxidermist told my bro in law yesterday that the 13in rule only applies to deer 2yrs old or younger. I haven't heard that anywhere else yet so I wouldn't risk it.

I stick to what I read in TPWD, and I assure you that is not in there.

The AR lovers have gone migratory.

A few years ago my late friend who was also one of the most decorated police officers in the state did accidentally shoot an illegal buck according to him he missed and the bullet hit something and wound up hitting the wrong buck. He called the GW who he knew and told her what happened she said to take it and donate it.

It turned out that he had been on a hunting trip in Wyoming and his scope was about a foot off it was a lever action 338. Again I don't know the whole story and he is no longer with us but this is what I remember.

Exactly, AR critics are so quick to point out the flaws in the system when many of them are reaping the benefits of these regulations.

I've seen more mature bucks this year in person and on trail cams than any previous season. AR's definitely account for part of that.

Forget principle. Focus on the big deer.


It's for the kids. Y'all AR fanatics hate little kids, don't you.

Could having a little more rain in the last 12 to 13 month's be the reason we are seeing better, more mature bucks, not saying the AR is not the reason. But we have had more rain in this time period than the last 3 to 4 years, and the drought has taken a toll on my cattle. Just a thought.

I think folks just put a little too much priority on antlers. They say they like shooting a "big buck" but they more or less mean "big antlered buck". I'm willing to bet they would be happier with a 4 1/2 year old 110 pound buck that scored 140 than a 5 1/2 year old 130 pound buck that scored 120 simply because his antler growth is "on the decline".

I guarantee they would. And that's fine. I won't tell them what they should be shooting. All I ask is the same respect.

But mostly, they just hate little kids.

Personally, I'd rather have the older deer and the extra 20 lbs of venison. Now, if your argument was a 170 5.5 that weighed 150, and a 140 7.5 that weighed 170, I would likely opt for he higher scoring buck, as would about 99% of hunters if they were being honest.

What if it was a 4.5 160 and 6.5 145? Huh? What then?

I would shoot the 160 then fill the rest of my tags with spikes and does that are legal in my county.

I'd take the older deer and hope that the younger deer has a chance to pass on his genetics or make it to next year. I'd rather not take a buck if he's not at least 5.5 or an obvious cull.

Okay. How about a 7.5 120 or a 3.5 190? Yeah, what ya gonna do now?

Oh, sorry, the 160 was only 12" wide. Try again.

That 145 has anthrax. You just died. Try again.

I had to shoot the 190. He was an obvious cull, no brow tines.

If it's old enough to breed, it's old enough to bleed.

Good call.

I'm a 1%er, I'd shoot 5 yearlings in da face.

I have kids ranging from 8 to 22 years old. My 8 yr old son and my teenage daughters shot either a doe,spike,or there 13 + in buck this year. You mean to tell me a 8 yr old can shoot one or two in his case but a grown man cannot or he wouldn't be complaining ....have you tried corn?
Also all the supposed ar hating meat hunters...if you put a 170 in 12 pt 200lb buck and a 100 in 6pt 200lb buck,I'd bet you would shoot the bigger horned 170..
It's ok to like big racks! Most men do...lol.

In English, please.

I kills me how some folks will not believe that there are real live meat hunters out there who aren't law breaking poachers. The same ones who seem to get so upset when said meat hunter shoots a barely legal 2.5 year old buck and didn't shoot a doe instead. Maybe, just maybe it wasn't legal doe days yet in his or her county or maybe, just maybe, that hunter truly didn't care about the size of the antlers because it was a legal buck. If the TP&W says it's okay to shoot it, nobody else should have a problem with it. TP&W are heroes for imposing the 13" rule but yet the hunter who shoots a young 13" buck is evil. Oh and less we forget about a young spike being a legal extra buck as a TP&W gift. Sorry, Jim Beam and Coke after the venison chili we had tonight is going down good tonight.

In all seriousness I do hope they one day change AR to let kids shoot any buck during youth weekend. That is suppose to be for the kids and would help a lot of kids have a better chance.
For or against AR restrictions, we are all hunters. I personally hunt for the meat as well...I just prefer to shoot a big antlered buck as they also have more meat...I always shoot 2 doe with a bow to get venison in freezer as well.

I read alot of the opinions on here.Just wondering how do you tell the difference between a 2.5 year old buck and a 4.5 year buck? Doesnt the nutrition and food source have something to do with the growth? I havent every read anything about the age of a doe that was harvested.

Apparently most folks don't put much into studying a doe before shooting it. If they do, they don't say anything about it. I guess to them, it's just a doe.

All AR proponents are aging experts. It's not really a skill, but more of an idea of themselves.

The way it works, is that if a deer is big enough that they'd want to mount it, then by golly, he's mature. They shoot him and say that he's 5.5 or older. If they get trigger happy, and shoot one that is not up to the standards they've been preaching, and they know they can't pass it off as mature, then they call it a cull buck and go on their way.

This, of course, does not apply to the true experts, or even the casual AR fan. Only the wannabe experts. The rabid, in your face, AR nut job that thinks antler restrictions came from heaven above and are the sole reason for all bucks that have lived beyond 2.5 years of age.

Does don't count. When you hear, "It's for a healthier herd," that interprets to, "I want bigger antlers and nothing else matters!"

Me personally if its a buck and not bigger than what I have on the wall I dont shoot.If its a big mature doe I shoot.I dont hunt just to say I shot a buck

I don't hunt just to drink whiskey, but it does happen a lot.

And I don't shoot a buck just because it has a trophy rack.

Just curious then why shoot it?Trophy rack to you may be different to someone else

I don't understand that question.

Why do you shoot a buck?

For meat



Because it walked out before a doe or spike

Im glad you dont hunt with me

This train of thought has always baffled me a little...not being disrespectful or saying your way is wrong, just not sure I understand it.

I like to hunt different areas, different terrains, etc. I have a place in Kansas and one in West Texas. No doubt, my place in Kansas produces much larger deer than my place in Wtex. So, since I will never have a chance in west Texas to kill the size of deer in Kansas...should I stop hunting west Texas?

I try to kill the best deer I can in the area I am hunting. I don't go to west Texas and hold out for a 190", because they aren't in my area. On the flip side, I don't go to Kansas to shoot a 120". I enjoy both greatly and enjoy hunting the deer each has to offer. But, if I kill a 190" in Kansas, I am not going to stop hunting my place in Texas where the biggest deer is 140-150. I would shoot a 120" eight pointer if he was mature and the biggest that year seemed to offer

Guess my question is, at what point are you done hunting? I enjoy hunting and go many years without a trophy, but isn't because I couldn't have shot one or because nothing was worth putting on my wall.

Dont know about Sneaky, but that's all i can shoot in my county, that's how i have become a HORN's hunter.

I shoot a buck because I have an obsession with antlers and deer meat.

Other people, who knows.

It was tongue in cheek and was directed as a response "for" the two you questioned. I choose to hunt different than others, but their choice doesn't bother me. I would hunt with either of those two any day, even if we didn't agree.

I think my answer for you fits better

Yes! Txshntr is taking me hunting in Kansas.

I have a spike that needs to die...tag is a measly $400

Hah! I passed on a 4 point and a spike and a few tasty yearlings when I shot those two fat does. Things are different on my own land.

Don't tell STX about the spike.

I feel used....

Ooooooo...STX ain't gonna like that

Where they at least 2"?

It comes with a doe tag

They were a good 5-6 inches.

Shhhhh......

Well, that changes things. 2 deer, and two keychains. I'm in.

About the doe question...to me it's best to shoot the biggest doe out there at the time. Like right now the doe are herding back up and it's easy to spot the most mature one . During bow season I try to shoot a big doe with no fawns. Hoping to leave the good breeder doe in the herd. Works for me but may not for another. Each to there own.

I see your point.If your proud of the deer you pull the trigger on than be happy.What im saying is theres guys that just want to say I shot a buck this year.Then the next year they have their antlers in the blind rubbing them together.Not so proud of them then.Where I hunt I may never get the chance to shoot another 150 class buck.But hopefully one of my sons will

My two cents on the AR is I was against them like Curly and Sneaky and many others are. But the fact is, I have seen more good deer since they have been in place. But that's not the main reason I am in support of them. I have a small place with 9 different bucks on camera and 4 of them show a lot of promise in the 2 1/2-3 1/2 range I'd guess(I'm no expert). With AR's I know there is a good chance these bucks will make it to next year and realize a better potential. Without them, I'm sure these deer will have little chance of making it past this year.

I will say that at this point in my life, I do prefer trophies first and meat second. It took me a while to admit that to myself, but I can't deny it. I certainly understand those mothers and fathers who want to let their kids kill whatever they want, I have three boys myself, and can't wait til they get their first deer. However, I remember when I was a youngster hunting in Fairfield and we got our first doe permit. I was so excited that I had the opportunity to shoot one of the deer that we DID see, cause does were all I ever saw. Just so happens that year I got my first deer(it was a buck, go figure).

The AR doesnt bother me I wouldnt shoot a deer that I had to worry about being close to that. That being said I know how you east Texas hunters feel. I hunted there a couple of times

You wouldn't want to shoot this buck?

Yep I would

How 'bout now?

yep,still would.Its legal

You sure? He looks awfully close, to me. Well inside the ears.

Based on those pics...would be too close for me to shoot

Unless I was like that fella in this thread that would just take it behind the barn and clean it

You bet I'd want to shoot that buck. Thank God I don't have those genetics running all over my place. That would be very tempting. I'd have to call my local game warden and show him pics to ask his opinion (which I have done before).

Hell, you could make a swing for yourself out of that one TRex

Hes very close but I like those tall racks.

Why does big brother think that everyone should be a trophy hunter. I follow the law when I do get the chance to hunt but I remember having a lot more fun before I was forced to become a trophy hunter. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. My first buck was a small five pointer and will always be a trophy to me. Also, I have two deer heads on my wall from long years ago that do not meet AR widths today and would be considered illegal but they are beautiful mounts and I am proud of them. I have a friend that has been in an AR ruled county for over ten years and they are run over by "mature" bucks that don't meet AR widths so they seldom kill any deer but sit and watch bucks by the bunches and have AR restricted bucks dying of old age every year. That's not right.

Hey, coyotes deserve mature venison. TPWD knows this.

What county in texas is this,that's running over with mature bucks dying off of old age?

The first county's to use AR was 6 county's in the post oak savannah region. According to Tp&w these county's experienced great results and that's why they later extended it to other county's ...it was designed to protect 1 1/2 old deer because that was the majority of deer harvested. If someone has a mature deer that's possibly less than 13 in , they can call GW and get approval. It isn't meant to protect 4 yr old plus deer!

Don't have AR's on that ranch. Try again.

The AR restriction is an imperfect system. Far better would be to set an AGE limitation.....i.e. the buck has to be, say, 3.5 years old before you can shoot it. Trouble is, even experts will disagree when aging a live buck on the hoof. So, how do you expect the average Joe and Willie to accurately estimate the age of a live deer?

Thus, we have the AR rule. And it is achieving its goal....to improve the age structure of the herd by allowing young immature bucks to grow up. Yes, in theory, the AR policy skews toward mature bucks with narrow racks, but for the most part, the system works.

I have read this entire thread, and the usual suspects that hunt for meat-only are protesting loud and long. But there can be no denying that a significant majority of deer hunters want to see bigger, older bucks. This desire was well-established when TP&W held meetings in AR counties to get input from the public (if you didn't know about this, you didn't read your local paper).

These are the good old days of deer hunting. When I was majoring in Wildlife Science at TAMU back in the early seventies, I worked with a graduate student on weekends who was writing his thesis on the population dynamics of whitetails in Leon County. Among other things, he/we determined that the buck/doe ratio was approximately 1-to-eleven on the several properties we surveyed in the county. Interestingly, just as today, every hunter and every landowner held himself out to be an expert on deer. By far, the prevailing thought back then was, "Don't shoot does; the more does you have, the more bucks they'll produce." Shooting more does and letting more bucks walk was anathema to Texas hunters just a generation ago.

Nowadays, more and more hunters are signing on to the idea that a herd with a balanced age class--the way that nature intends it--is a healthy herd. And a healthy herd provides the wildlife observer with a quality experience and the hunter with a better chance to harvest a mature animal.

There can be no doubt that a small minority of hunters care little about managing for mature animals. They just want the meat and don't care one whit about the trophy size. And that's fine. But this view is the minority one. I am in the minority in that I didn't vote for our current President, but I was out-voted and will have to live with it. Texas hunters have clearly established their desire for a more balanced deer herd where they hunt. If you dislike the current system, get in touch with the TP&W and formally express your opinion. And be prepared to back it up with tangible and factual evidence.

We've come a long way, baby!

Well said dawaba.

This AR thing remind's me of Slot lake's, worked great for 7 to 8 yrs, then the small, under the slot fish started piling, started to stunt the fish, even P&W came out and said it. 0.2

AR's were put in place to protect bucks like the one shot above. Next year it is very likely that deer would have been legal

For the most part, our deer HAVE benefitted by the AR restrictions. I fully support it and have no problem with the meat processors reporting illegal deer. I have hunted East Texas my whole life and have seen a huge improvement in the quality and quantity of bigger deer. I will pay for steak at the grocery store before I sank to the level of a "meat hunter".

Better to sink to the level of a meat hunter than the arm chair interweb wannabe expert deer managers and the antler hunters.

Meat hunter reaction ; nice deer, looks tasty, the smile on the face in the picture is what it is all about.
Antler hunter reaction; woulda been a nice deer in 2 or 3 years, baby killer, nice fawn, shoulda wiped the milk off its lips before you took the picture.

Hunters nowadays are their own worst enemy, the anti hunting crowd couldn't do a better job of ruining the public perception of hunting.

I just have to say this is the best thing that has been said!!!

Your ATTITUDE is the very reason ARs are needed! Ugh. When will people learn.

For those who think you can manage deer herds with limits on how many bucks and does can be taken this is a prime example of why it doesn't work. This kind of attitude is why it doesn't work! Average hunter will do what he wants to do irregardless of what should be done.

Too many folks question the reasoning behind why a person shoots a deer, even if it's a legal one. Why, so they can judge?

ARs have rescued the Texas Whitetail deer population from the very brink of extinction.

AR's work!! I haven't shot a buck in 4 years. I've seen 2 mature bucks with 9"-11" spreads. So I guess another 3 to4 years I will still get to watch em walk around and produce more sorry a$$ bucks to watch.

Only thing AR is doing in my area is helping out with a bigger population of undersized bucks.

My problem is, is that I don't have a problem with a mature buck having a narrow rack. They're just illegal.

Dang it....

I'm not saying that AR's don't work to make more mature bucks.

I'm saying that they are dumb on principle....and that y'all don't like little kids.

I don't either, it's Mr. Green jeans that has the problem. I had to grit my teeth and bear it last weekend when a big old boy came out 40 yards from me. 8 pt maybe 11" wide. Had all the signs of an old buck, pot belly, sway in the back and beefy stubby looking legs. I was guessing at LEAST 5-1/2. But just sat there and watched him walk into the woods.

Guess if I don't get a doe Thanksgiving weekend I will be deerless another year. Might as well join PETA

until YOU produce pics of these bucks they might as well be a squatch/chupa/unicorn/black panther.

that's why I wasn't even gonna put my story on here. I'm just another lying A-hole cuz I don't have a pic. Next time I guess I will hold my phone out the stand and shoot a pic of him since I can't shoot em with a gun. I can think of a lot better crap to lie about and it ain't the size of a damn deer horn

That's how "they" roll whitewing maniac.

Hell maybe I will just shoot em if he shows next weekend, post me and the deer and good times will be had by all.

Funny...sure seems the "meat" hunters are as judgemental as the trophy hunters

I just watched my favorite hunting show "Meat Eater" with Steve Rinella on the Sportsman's Channel. He took a small racked but legal blacktail buck. He said something profound for a hunting show host. "I love big racks but I love meat even more".

You should make that your sig...

That could be taken the wrong way.

simma' down playa, i thought it would be funny since we had the EXACT same conversation like 3 weeks ago.

i actually dug that thread up to make sure you hadnt posted any pics before i replied.

guess we can tell who takes things a LITTLE bit too serious....i know its a bit early but go have a beer, maybe even smoke a cigarette, chill.

I truely have nothing against a BIG RACK

Exactly

Too late...you already stated your position as well as Curly and Sneaky

Meat over racks for you "boys"

Mama didn't raise no fool.

Talking deer....yes. Let's be clear on this.

see, and this isnt even coming from an "AR LOVER," TX arent you a self proclaimed AR neutralist?

Give me the rack dangit, I LIKE THE BIG RACKS!!!

Gotta quit playing with my emotions.

Very much a neutralist. I can see both sides and honestly would probably vote against them if it was an option. I wouldn't want them on my place or my county, so how is it right to say it is ok for others? But, with certain areas I can see why they were implemented due to reputation and typical size of tracts in the area.

haha, my bad man, i should realize few things rile people up more than obama, johnny football, and damn antler restrictions.

BIG MEATY RACKS FOR EVERYBODY!!

Now that is something we can all agree on

At least I think so...

so in conclusion:

AR HATER = meat over racks
AR LOVER = racks over meat

got it.

Hey, wait a minute....

i bought mine about 6 months ago

I do too, even the ones on deer. Speaking of big racks, my taxidermist in Saskatchewan sent me a photo yesterday of my big Canadian buck I managed to take last fall. All he lacks is to create a bit of habitat on the pedestal. I should get it in a couple weeks. I believe even the most ardent meat hunter appreciates a BIG RACK!

My mood has gotten better for some reason. Don't screw it up!!!!

awesome buck and mount looks great

Maybe it should have gone something like don't shoot nothing with 6pts or under?I believe they did this so the young Bucks would have a chance to grow up cause they are easier to kill since their skills haven't been honed yet and they are more likely to walk out on you.I probably would have shot the Buck mentioned in this article if it walked out of the woods onto my highline 100 or more yards out on a foggy morning.It can be hard to judge under those circumstances.I shot what I concidered a very nice 8pt on our lease about 3 years ago.It came out right before dark thirty and crossed the creek comming straight towards me and looked a lot better than it was in my scope.It was 13 1/2"and I thought it was closer to 16-18"
I hunt in SanAugustine Co on the north side of Rayburn and we don't exactly see deer every time we sit a stand so we can't be real finicky and cut it close sometimes.Last year I shot a doe and an ole goat horned spike and that was it and I was glad to get them cause my whole family loves to eat venison.

Don't think you have to worry about him being a B&C entry. Heck of a buck, dawaba.

Did it hurt?

let me ask her....

Valid question.

You should have just shot a young one, they taste better

Heck of a deer!!! Congrats

Wow, dawaba! Congratulations!

It's the hurt that keeps on hurting.

Easiest thing to do is to remove restrictions. People can manage as they see fit for their style of hunting. You run into the problem of people wanting to pull the trigger a lot, but still expect to shoot big deer every yr.

Oh you bought "hers".

well Curly, i dont want to slight anyone, she works too, so techincally "WE" bought hers with no opposition from me

would even some type of rotation work? like 5 years under AR's then 5 years without them? keep bag limits the same if you want or ditch the spike tag on years without AR's and go 1 buck and 2 doe....

okay, if there was EVER a thread that needed pics, it's this one

Doesn't everyone? We buy big trucks for the hunt. And we buy big racks for the home.

Dawaba, that is a beauty! congrats sir

My big rack got smaller many years ago

As for you boys buying big racks...mine had to get downsized


TWICE!!! dang back problems

Nope...no need for a spike tag, just resort back to 1 buck in 1 buck counties & 2 in counties that were 2 bucks.

I feel your pain.

agreed, i never use it anyway, well i never use any of mine really...

Huh. This was like a 3's company moment. Talking deer again?

So do you consume the venison when you kill your big antlered buck ? Do you keep the antlers and dispose of the venison ? As a former "low level meat hunter" (don't hunt much any longer) I have asked the following question on THF and in emails to TPWD many many times: "Does the increased antler width or increased age equate to better quality table fare ?" If not, then why would you mange only to satisfy the hunters that only desire a set of antlers for the wall ? Heck it is wonderful to have that trophy on the wall but to penalize one group to help another is not right. If someone will PM me their email address that is willing to post a game camera photo I will submit a nice buck that is too narrow...he is mature to my eyes (of course I am not the expert that all of you trophy hunters are)...

rick

Rick, my answer to your question would be that the AR were implemented to benefit the overall herd and we're not designed to "hurt" any hunters. In many counties, they actually provide the opportunity to fill more tags than previously. Also, majority of hunters aren't meat hunters, they are ultimately hunting for a trophy of some sort and a small minority use hunting as a means to feed their family. Many hunters enjoy and utilize the meat, but that isn't their main purpose of hunting.

The focus of hunting is evident in the number of HF's going up. Not saying it is right or wrong, but it seems that "meat" hunters are in the minority and the general purpose is for the betterment of the overall herd.

So what does the trophy hunter do with his venison ? Consume it...give it away...throw it to the dogs ? Can anyone actually say that old large antlered bucks are superior in taste ? TPWD states that the AR Management practice has nothing to do with trophy antlers...and most have opined that this has nothing to do about money...well trophy racks equal more money for lease providers, taxis, pay for hunt operations (I know MLD's are the answer to that...which BTW manage the herd by eliminating the small rack bucks)...you opine that larger racks equate to the betterment of the herd...how so ? Healthier deer ? Proof ? txshntr I respect your views and respect those that want that big rack on the wall but should we that disagree just stop hunting because we are in the minority ?

rick

AR's were put in place to balance the herd structure. not to increase antler size. antler size is a by product of an older deer. you will have more older deer in a balanced herd structure.

before AR's the herd structure was not balanced whatsoever. Majority of buck harvest in those counties were 1 1/2 year old bucks.

I mainly hunt to be in the great outdoors.My Dad started taking me as soon as I could keep up.We lived in the city but he married an east tx country gurl.He got hooked going with her dad,brothers,uncles,cousins and family friends.I thank god he did.We hunted everything from rabbits,coons,squirrels to hogs n deer.If it were not for the pure enjoyment I get being outdoors be it hunting or fishing which I concider God's gift to me I would not be the person I am.I would hate to think of hunting as sitting in a stand all day watching multitudes of deer prance around waiting on old big boy.If I couldn't get in the woods it wouldn't really be hunting in my opinion.I have hunted the big ranchs of west and south tx and taken some nice trophy's both whitetail and exotic but get way more satisfaction out of hitting the east tx woods and taking any deer be it buck or doe on their terms.If you want a true challenge try it.These deer have been schooled by the old timers and are using all the senses God gave them to the max.Just try poping off your safety instead of easing it off and watch them leave out like their tails were on fire. lol Or sitting on the ground all evening watching a nice acorn flat to have to straighten our your leg to ease the cramp and hear them snort at you and run off back into the thicket.That's what I concider hunting.I realize most never get a chance to do this due to their geography but if you want to understand our mindset(meat hunters) maybe you should try it and if you do then write about your experience.Most will give up way before they even see a deer and swear there are no deer in east texas. lol

There are some that donate the meat, give it away, etc. I would venture a guess that most eat it.

I think we would both agree that young deer taste better.

Larger racks do not necessarily equate to a betterment of the herd, but a healthier herd will produce larger racks as a by-product. Killing off mainly young deer in a herd is not proper management practices.

The main benefits I can see from the implementation of ARs is to provide a better age structure with more mature deer. You are correct in stating that this does nothing to improve the table fair, but an older, mature herd results in a better age diversification and in theory, larger racks.

Proof is in the difference between well managed ranches and ranches with absolutely no management practices. There is a significant difference in body weight, age diversification, carrying capacity, etc.

And no, I don't think that meat hunters should stop hunting or change their views. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned that I was neutral in regards to ARs. I can see both sides, but giving a chance to vote, I would vote against them.

Also, anyone that claims that ARs are not to increase antler size is lying. Whether it is a by-product or not, the intention is for the deer to get age and therefore larger antlers.

Most people on the forum know that I trophy hunt and enjoy the management of deer, but that doesn't mean I disagree with folks that don't hold my views.

I get frustrated by the meat hunters that shoot young deer and shoot any deer, then complain about the number Of deer they see or that their are no big deer. There is a reason and it isn't acorns.

Rick, ethically, I have a big problem with throwing perfectly good venison away. That is wanton waste of game and is illegal in many states.

That said, now that my children are grown and we are empty nesters, we don't eat as much venison as before. In fact, my own storm-and-strife eats no red meat at all anymore, but that is another story...

Nowadays, I have my venison made up in German-style sausage, which my taste buds favor. And if my freezer is already full, I participate in the Hunters for the Hungry program and pay a nominal amount for processing. This way, the meat is utilized, if not always by me. Even back in my doe-culling days, we always made sure the meat was eaten.

Regarding the buck pictured a few posts back, we ate tenderloins in camp that night. Since Canada levies an exit tax on wild game taken out of the country, it is cost-prohibitive to bring the meat home, unless you have a lot of it...like a moose. I paid $100 to have the buck processed in Moose Jaw, Sask., and the meat was donated to the local food bank. Again, I don't believe the food is wasted if SOMEONE eats it, even if it's not me.

Mr. Scott why does the TPWD game biologists that survey the MLD's require that a large number of cull bucks be killed in relationship to the "trophy" class bucks ? Is it to improve the genetics of the herd ? I understand the doe to buck ratio requirement for herd management...but, it appears that the TPWD manage MLD's by harvesting the culls in much greater numbers than the "trophies"...seems 180* about face from the non-MLD AR counties...

rick

Dude have you saw some of the bucks we have on our place ? I am guess not we do what we do and have great bucks because if it , we would prolly pass that buck up for one more year but if he's the same the next year what's the point of him passing that rack on humm there's not one and you don't know what your taking about

TPWD website flatly states that AR are not about managing for trophies...

rick

Strange considering the co-op that split and decided to start the problem for everyone was trying to manage for trophies in an area they were far and few between; even if deer made it to maturity.

the MLD surveys don't require any Cull or other type buck be killed. you get X number of buck tags and X number of doe tags that have to be filled. its up to you what age/class of buck you harvest.

MLD was designed to manage a specific deer herd for numbers and carrying capacity, not quality of antler size. Quality is a by-product of proper herd structure and age

TPWD issues MLD buck and antlerless permits. They do not tell you what to shoot. That is up the LO own management plan and goals. All TPWD requires is that you use the permits given. How you use them is up to you.

Just how big are your neighbors ranches that do not hunt again?

I am sure it does...don't believe it

Apologize for the MLD statement...I was under the impression as discussed by the only MLD I am aware of in my little part of the state with the TPWD game biologist during the AR discussion meetings that they "recommended" that more culls by a large amount be killed in relation to the "trophies" if they wanted to maintain their herd quality...also, there seemed to be the condition that you followed the "recommendations" if you wanted to remain in the program...

rick

None of this is telling me crap!! We've had the AR in Montgomery county now for the 5th year.

So when can I expect some hope and change. Will the trophies start poking their heads out soon. I've seen young bucks with small racks and a couple older bucks with small racks. When will they bloom to that trophy I could give a rats rear about??!!

You spent 30 years killing young bucks and want to see results that would counter the past in a measly 5 years

Follow the advice of that one dude in this thread...kill what you want and take care of it behind the barn

the biologist can make recommendations as to what type of deer needs to be shot based on surveys conducted but its not part of the actual program of MLD, its strictly numbers.

True, perhaps. But trophies are a happy, if not unexpected, side effect.

Nope only 10 years hunting deer on regular basis. I've killed a whole 3 bucks and1 spike in my 46 year life. 5 years after I get on a lease they throw the AR on it.

Maybe that's why I'm bitter, I really just started deer hunting. And does just don't group up around my area like I've seen in many other places, so even shooting a doe isn't a given.

You should go hunt a HF place...I hear that is where they are all at

Thanks for the invite.

Keep in mind not every property is gonna be a deer haven.

Yep. Maybe you should shop around for a different lease?

Yeah, one that's not in an AR county.

I find it funny that most of the anti-AR people here claim they're all about the meat, and yet they conveniently forget they have a doe tag and can use a buck tag on a spike as well.

Very interesting...

Maybe some of you have a secret recipe for deer rack stew and you're holding out on the rest of us!

Not me I find almost every rack a trophy. Everyone is unique and different with that being said, I dont now or in the past shot every one I seen. Even before AR's I rarely shot a buck and when I did I always loved that I could hold out for a bigger one and if it came along then I got two that year. I'm 48 now And I can say that has only happened three times in my life and I have been hunting since I was 8

It's hard to tell how wide they are if you shoot and split the horns

Stop being bitter. Get another lease since all your mature bucks are 11in wide....to get more doe on your property you have to have good cover and good food resources...plant cover crops,protein,corn feeders and hand corning help...
Do you get big bucks at night on gamecams? Just curious. Seriously you may need to find a better lease in a good ar county. Like Houston county. Ar has helped here ,as there's more big bucks than ever .

"They" make it all sound so simple. And I like they way they tell folks how to quit acting. Maybe they need to quit acting like bossy know-it-alls.

"They" make it sound so hard....it's not rocket science..surely nothing to get bitter about. The AR is the law in some county's , if someone don't like it there is county's without it to hunt in. If that's to hard, there's always golf to take up.

I've been on the same lease with family and the same friends for over 30 years. I'm not going anywhere. I buy a hunting license every year, that entitles me to voice my opinion. I won't quit hunting. I can hunt and fuss. Folks didn't quit hunting even when their neighbors were shooting "anything that moved" but they sure did fuss about it, big deal. Not much difference. Fussing is fussing, griping is griping and whining is whining, no matter what side of the fence you're on. We cry about ARs and folks cry about us doing it. I hate ARs but love hunting too much to quit and I love the lease I'm on too much to get off of it because of the comradery we have. Those both outweigh my AR hatred. Anyone ever notice that folks have different reasons for not liking ARs?

I didn't land on ARs with our county of choice, ARs landed on me. I should take that prime habitat, sell it & let some developer put in a large parking lot.

for the love of God, don't even joke about that!! The last blasted thing we need is more concrete!

I just hate little kids, that's all.

I appreciate your honesty.




I knew it!

I teach kids to hunt whether it is with ARs or no ARs on the land.

I like ARs because I get to see other people gripe about something.

This subject is like trying to win an argument with the wife. Ain't gonna happen.

What makes it fun is it's always the same handfull of people, year after year, after year. That hand has got to have calluses by now!

Not making fun of your situation, just the fact that ya'll keep complaining about it.
Kind of like a bad marriage, in that you stay with it for so many years, and your are so unhappy, so maybe it's time to leave the old gal.

Folks make AR haters sound ignorant while sounding arrogant.
Kinda evens things out.

Has complaining had any positive effect?
I hope it has, in that venting is the only thing that 9 pages has accomplished so far.
Arrogance?...No, I think it's more like I've been there, done that, and the only way to solve the problem is to move on, or just accept what you have and let it go, is all I'm saying.
I sense a lot of pent up anger and frustration here!...Can't be good for your personal health.

^^^ see? ^^^
I guess neither side sees the error of their ways.

This guy would not have made AR's!

I say this thread goes at least to 20 pages, what say you?

What a shame. Nice buck.

I'm in for the long haul.

I hunted the Angelina Natl Forrest in SanAugustine Co for about 15 years before AR's came into effect there.Was always good hunting to me-plenty of deer if you knew how to hunt them.I didn't like the fact it was a one buck county and no does allowed in the natl forrest.Seemed like there were plenty there.It was always one n done back then.Now with the AR in place you can keep hunting after the first buck be it a spike or 13 n better.Even better we are on a paper co lease now and are allowed 2 does and 2 bucks.We also have a bow season and black powder we never had before.So I am pretty happy about the whole thing personally.To me ARs allow you to be a meat hunter and a trophy hunter all at the same time.Whats not to like?

I still think it should be anything over 6pts instead or a width thing.Then you know the young bucks are allowed to walk and not the scrub racks you might want to cull.

Now if you throw HF-LF, bow vs. rifle, apple vs. reg. corn, shooting spikes and are chupas for real into the equation you could get about 90% involved.

Dude, that is an awsome buck, I don't care what it's measurement is AR's or no AR's.
Truth is that AR's would have allowed him to put on a few more inches down the road which would have been interesting.
I like AR's and I agree they do need to be tweeked a little, but getting TPWD to act is where the problem is situated.
Maybe it's time for sportsmen in Texas to head up a petition drive to get TPWD to move a little!

Kinda like it use to be.

Don't think it would've mattered. But thanks for the heads up.



Thanks! I don't think more age would have helped him, he was 7.5 so most likely on the decline!

I was being sarcastic buddy. I would of put him down to.

Negative...that deer was only a 2 1/2 year old

How old is that in human years?

Then people would be posting giant 6 points and blame TPWD for creating a bunch of mature deer that need to be culled

At least you could cull them.

Not if the rule is over 6 points, best you could do is hope they kick off another point.

You have to be on a trophy lease to shoot smaller horned deer cuz they are not worthy, that's called management. In an AR county it's called a fine

O.K. MR.Negativity
How many giant 6pts compared to basket racks 8's n up have all you people seen?
Just Sayin.But your right peps are gonna gripe no matter what the rules are.Maybe there should be no rules?And then there would be no deer and we could all argue about fishing regs.hehehehe

^^^see?^^^

We gotta have rules but why one that involves inches when it comes to antler width? In AR counties, why not just make it as long as the antlers are even with the ears or if you shoot a narrow antlered buck and a GW checks it out and deems it to be a mature buck, then you don't get fined? Or in AR counties, make it a one and done deal. You shoot one deer and you're done. Buck, doe, spike, whatever but then you're done. Hey, at least I'm trying to come up with something different instead of griping. Heaven forbid anyone do that on here.

AR County - To shoot or not to shoot?
1) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...44ea6.jpg[/img][/img]
2) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...57b45.jpg[/img][/img]
3) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...3f169.jpg[/img][/img]
4) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...f071a.jpg[/img][/img]
5) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...7f880.jpg[/img][/img]
6) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...e0a9d.jpg[/img][/img]
7) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...11c39.jpg[/img][/img]
8) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...4f5fb.jpg[/img][/img]
9) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...efc5e.jpg[/img][/img]
10) [img][IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/...d9aba.jpg[/img][/img]
Now if left up to you - shoot or not shoot?

Cant see it.

Click on the caps IMG.Works for me?

Never mind, stxranchman beat me to it.

but if the AR counties had any kinda managment then they wouldnt have ARs. game ranches are tight managed and Tex Parks Wildlife knows that so no need for restrictino. big ranches make more $$$ on bigger deer so they have reasons to cull and make the deer bigger. Persons on public land dont care. If its brown it's down as they say.

If it were me I would have shot the buck in images 1-3 as a spike
Buck in images 4-7 I would call a legal 13" inside spread on my place.
The 2 bucks in images 8-10 are not old enough on my place to shoot. The younger one is not wide enough either. Can't tell much about the bigger 8's spread from those pics.

BTW that first buck in pics 1-3 is very old looking to me. What did he look like a few years ago?

And his mother, sister and .....

Sounds like MLD to me. Doesn't cost anything and you can manage "your property" the way you see fit. The solution to "your" problem already exists

Worst case scenario he becomes coyote food. I wish AR's would become standard in every county in Texas.

But the person who was lucky this year to shoot a cull buck will be in trouble next year for shooting a yearling because the can't age one.

Processors keep records?

And they say us East Texas hunters are unethical.

Hopefully you were joking. ---> TPWD cold storage, processing and taxidermy

I will say that AR has accomplished something that I never thought would take place...at least not in Texas...it has effectively divided deer hunters into two opposing camps. The same thing took place with the "black rifle (AR 15)" vs. trap/skeet/sporting clays crowd...it split that community and that riff has never totally healed. I admit that I do not approve of the AR laws and I have expressed my feelings to TPWD many times. One troubling concern for me is the pro-AR crowd is seemingly quick to let the anti-AR know that they ( the anti-AR crowd) should take up golf or fishing or just shut up and accept the law.

rick

ps where is the white emoticon surrender flag...

my buddy has a small farm in Colorado county, which is one of the first AR counties.

They had owned the farm for probably 10 years prior to ARs and maybe had taken one buck over 3 years old during that time period. most were only yearling bucks. Same goes for all the neighbors.

AR's go into effect and they all bicker and moan about how the state is ruining their hunting, who are they to tell them what to do with their land(like seasons and bag limits aren't already in effect) yada yada, the same argument that is going on here.

Well, a few years down the road, they start shooting bigger bucks than they ever had. year before last they shot the two biggest bucks, a 5 year old and a 6 year old, both ten points. He took a nice 8 point this year.

What AR's have accomplished on this property and surrounding properties are:

1. Lots more deer. Better Herd Composition has increased the overall population which equals more bucks to shoot at

2. They are killing mature bucks. Never before would they have a chance to harvest 4+ year old bucks on a consistant basis like they are doing now

3. last but not least, they are killing bigger antlered bucks. none of these deer killed are impressive horn wise even at maturity because of their genetics(avery island stock) but they are bigger than ever before.


TPWD is implementing these restrictions to manage a public resource because the landowners in these counties are incapable of doing it themselves.

if a person doesn't like it, then he has a choice; high fence it and get on MLD and he will be exempt from AR's and he can kill bucks with spreads less than 13" to his hearts content.

I understand that a lot of folks are meat hunters. That's ok. Does and spikes are made up of meat. shoot those.

Some people are trophy hunters or are tired of shooting 4 and 6 point bucks because that's all they have running around their place due to the "meat hunter" neighbors.

It used to be if you wanted to kill a really nice buck you had to go to South Texas or the Western Hill Country to bag a big one. With management the way it is now, that is no longer the case. More and Bigger Deer than ever before are coming out of east texas and the post oak region. Why is that? Couldn't possibly be because of the antler restrictions in place, could it?

Mr. Scott I give up sir...no one on the pro side seems to understand that not all of us can HF or MLD...nor do y'all understand that we would willingly shoot a doe or spike if we see one...doe days are limited and we have not seen a spike in forever...please sir answer a question that I have asked multiple times...older 13"+ inside spread bucks are tastier or are better table fare ?? Trophy hunters are tired of the neighbor shooting small bucks !!! Heck I am tired of watching buck after buck after buck walk because they may be too narrow...but my opinion doesn't count does it sir ?? Good luck...great hunting God Bless...

rick

What's giving birth to all of those bucks you have? Seems crazy to have so many bucks since they can't reproduce by themselves, odd.

I assume you are questioning our doe population...I did not say we didn't have any does...reread my post...does days last for the first two weeks of the season...we had very few does on game cameras...work only allowed my son to hunt on three occasions...he did not see a single doe during legal shooting hours...our doe days are over unless he hunts muzzleloader season...he began to see does this week during weather changes (last Sunday it was 85* here)...my grandson has been in the stand twice with his dad and they have seen several <13" bucks...no spikes...the intolerance of you guys amaze me as do your comments...

rick

Yes I was.... I was eluding to what I quoted.

I've never hunted an AR county so let me get this right. You can only hunt does for the first 2 weeks? Not the entire season? If that is correct then that is the craziest thing I've ever read!

Yes we can only kill a doe the first 16 days of the season...if you are working or sick or whatever then you are out of luck...

rick

Is that every AR county or just certain ones? I looked at the TPWD online manual and it didn't mention a special doe hunting time frame. Do you get a late season doe tag or just the first 16 days?

Unless we muzzleloader hunt and have not killed a doe then our only doe days are the first 16 days...this is the regs in several East Texas counties...

rick

Well no wonder you hate the AR regulations. We can shoot does for almost 3 1/2
months counting archery season.

There are also AR counties where during the general season doe's can only be taken Nov 28 - Dec. 1 (4 days) unless you have mld or lamps permits. There are a few AR counties that doe during general season are by mld permit only. A few AR counties are even more messed up by having different regulations depending on which side of a major hiway you hunt on in the same county.

You have to read each AR counties regulations, some are more restrictive than others.

Bowhunting or crossbow gives you another month to shoot doe as well. We have the whole month of November here to shoot doe. I'm sure it depends if tp&w believes some county's need more doe taken out. Saying that, there's noway we are shooting our legal limit . That would be to many killed of this place. So imo tp&w doesn't have a perfect system but I think they overall do a great job.

The late season for AR counties are usually youth or ML..which I believe anything legal the first day of general season is legal then...those who only have Thanksgiving weekend or archery to shoot a doe are SOL.

Our doe days are from Thanksgiving day through the following Sunday.4 days total. We have no extended doe and spike days.

Tyler County was a 2 buck/2 doe County prior to AR's and I think they could have accomplished the same results of letting younger bucks survive by just reducing bag limits to 1 buck/1 doe!!! I continue saying that AR's may work great in some areas and not work in other areas where the genetics are tall narrow racks!!! Blanket rules don't work everywhere!!!

Well, I'm afraid that ship has already sailed.

Complaining to your fellow hunters here on this forum is about as effective as complaining about ARs to your dog.

Get everyone you know in Tyler county to keep a daily log of deer sightings....fawns, does, number and sizes of bucks. Then at the end of the season, collect all the data and compile the results on a spreadsheet. Find a degreed wildlife biologist who will support your cause and carry the flag for you to Austin. Then, make specific proposals with hard data on why Tyler County should be treated differently than other AR counties (this would be a good time to look at what other states in the SE U.S. have done to improve the balance of their own deer herd, or perhaps call Dr. Kroll at SFA and get him to go to bat for you).

Or, you can continue complaining on the THF.....

TPW dont give a rats arse about what we want and they couldnt figure it out even if they had a slide rule! Sent letters and emails every year for the last 3yrs and not one responce. Its just like all gov. agencies they dont care if it works for you as long as it works for them. I think this is our 5th or 6th year under ar in hopkins co. and i see fewer deer every year and have lived and hunted my property for 26yrs now. AR is NOT working there.

I can tell you I would NOT process an illegal deer. PERIOD. You wanna hunt, play by the rules. You don't like the AR's in your county...find a deer lease in a county without AR's

same in hunt county, although i do have archery season to kill does but i am usually chasing ghosts at that time. i sat and watched the same 6-7 doe at/around my feeder every sit in december and january last season, and couldnt shoot.

they could have bumped it to 4 bucks and made no real difference. Folks have to actually be able to see them to kill them in that thick mess. I'd also think that 69 should be a divide for regulations in the county as the south end tends to be overrun with deer.

It does not have anything to do with you doing anything wrong and i dont get why you say that and your not doing anything wrong by taking it in . So if someone came in and had the horns already cut off would you put a tape on it or just assume that it is over the 13'' ? To me all this AR stuff has to do with more way for the state to make more money but i do see that some counties that have have not had very good luck with having good deer are getting some good results from them and thats ok.The main thing that gets me about the whole thing is that the ones that made the law didnt take everything into account when putting it in affect and thats where most things go wrong . If there was any type of study done out where i am i dont think it was a very good one because over the past 15 years i have hunted 8 different properties that range from 50 acr to over 50000 and i can say that out of all those places i have really never saw a buck that was that narrow that wasnt a real young buck . Some of these places now that the AR's have been in place are going down hill according to the land owners.... because their hunters can not shoot to ones that are ynoung and need to be taken off because of their rack not being what they want it to be and that is the main reason why you cant make laws for places that you have done studies on and yes i know that theor are ways to get around that .

See, we have folks who give us all kinds of great advise and useful opinions when we complain on the THF. Case in point........

Don't you just love it Curly?

AR counties are different everywhere. Some counties such as Waller county have buck only unless you have an MLD permit to shoot a doe. Montgomery county where I hunt you can take 2 does up until Dec.1, no special spike anterless season in many counties.

When I hear a person say "just shoot a doe" , I just wanna, well anyways. There have been a few years when I've seen a few yearling does during the period we can take does, and a week or 2 later all the mature does start coming out. It's like they know

when I first started hunting we couldn't shoot a doe, period. then they changed the laws to allow 2 does to be harvested until thanksgiving.

that is the way it is. if a person is sick or can't get off work during doe days, well, I'm sorry. if a person is sick or has to work and misses the entire season he can't go shoot one in march either.

TPWD is doing their job. People need to let them do it

Tpwd is doing a half*** job as always, but that's the norm for any gov run agency. There was no problem that needed fixing. One could argue the herd ratios were jacked up, but tpwd caused that from decades of bad mgmt on the doe numbers. I also think its funny for LF MLD to be excluded from tag usage and AR bc they are sharing deer with neighboring tracts that get lumped into observation reports.

^^^THIS^^^

Bet those ranches get alot more $$$$$ with those big wide racks on em

So what do you contribute the increasing number of large East Texas bucks that have been taking in the last few years too?

Where's that data?

Social media and more advertisement. I've honestly not seen an increase in them, the perception is there for folks who only find out about them through the www though.

what ranches?

there are few commercial hunting operations in east texas and the gulf prarie compared to the rest of the state?

hell half the tracts in some counties are 200 acres or less

I agree with Rifleman on this. How many of us were even members of internet forums prior to ARs? I didn't even know there was any. If a big buck was killed back then (and plenty were) it was not posted all over the internet. Heck we didn't even have game cameras back then. Now if a good deer is killed in East Texas it's posted on 16 forums and everybody raves about ARs.

Nope...you are wrong. East Texas has never had big deer and everyone out there only kills babies so none ever made it to proper age of harvest

All kidding aside...before the interweb, everyone had a pretty good idea of the deer that came out of South Texas. You pretty much knew what you were getting if you hunted the Hill Country. West Texas and the Panhandle were known to produce the same type of bucks that they are still producing...but East Texas was never on many people's radars and if a good buck came out of East Texas, it was considered an exception.

Maybe you are right, but there is data to back up the average age of the harvest of most ETX counties. It is supposed to be what the intentions of ARs was based on.

This is like the people that complain when it hasn't rained in awhile,then when it rains for a couple days they'll soon complain about that! Tp&w does a good job overall imo..
Before ar took effect...the majority complained about letting the small bucks go ,only to be shot by the neighbor who shot anything that walked out. When Tp&w listens and puts ar in effect,some of the majority now complains about that! There's noway to please everyone....

The way that 'data' was collected was the same as if the human population census data was collected at jr high and high schools.

Never said it was good data...just data lol

The sample size of deer going to processors whole is not an accurate representation of overall harvest.

Actually that's the minority who complained..the majority don't really care and were fine just hunting. The minority wanted change, and forced their change onto everyone else..when they look in the mirror they should see a far left wing democrat.

Yeah they may have done a little data on some of the areas but not enough i am sure like all things gov related it's more than likely fudged to where they want it to be , so where was all the AR supporters when there was no AR rules ? Bet they was not out there trying to get something done about it was they !
I am not totally against them but they need to have some revision.

So did the warden or processor age the deer?

Keep a going rifleman!

If someone were actually hungry enough to NEED to hunt deer to put food on the table I highly doubt they would care about antler restrictions. And believe it or not, there are still people on planet earth who live that way, and those people do not care about the law or fines; they care about killing their meat.

ARs are for the management minded, big buck hunting, trophy killers, not for people who actually meat hunt as a necessity.

I'll admit I do not agree with antler restrictions simply because I do not like anyone telling me what or how do do ANYTHING, let alone my hobbies. Hunting is a hobby for me, not a necessity. It is a luxury, and as such, I don't lose any sleep worrying about that 12 3/4 that I could have shot yesterday.

I enjoy watching deer just as much as I do killing them. Honestly, the killing part doesn't really appeal to me so much anymore because I hate to see a beautiful animal die for my overall enjoyment. To the contrary, I love hunting, being outdoors, observing wildlife, and I enjoy eating venison so the pros outweight the cons for me. Nothing goes to waste so it is worth it. That is a luxury I have, and have been fortunate enough to have family land to hunt my entire life.

And as a biologist, my career pushes me to be mindful of habitat management and herd health and the like, so I understand the principal of the ARs. Theoretically, its a way to improve age structure and allow mature bucks to breed the does and so forth; I get that. Realistically, it is a way to generate revenue and assert control in a trophy driven hunting industry. In some places it works great, others it does not. Some places simply do not have the genetics to produce many 13 plus inch bucks. Many more places do than don't and many more hunters hunt horns over meat.

I am thankful for the right to hunt, regulated or not. Just be glad that they are not the "king's deer." Be happy that the right even exists at all.

I doubt any of you on here are starving, or else yuo most likely would not have access to the internet. I'll admit, I was pissed when TPWD put out the ARs, again because I don't like begin told what to do, but hey, I can still hunt, and I have gotten used to them. I wouldn't shed a tear if they went away tomorrow though.

The fella out there who shoots his deer for the table, he doesn't read this forum, or pay much attention to the news, the law, etc. He just does what he wants and gets left alone. Those people, the TPWD does not focus on.

So, you have a problem with them telling you what you can shoot, but not how many or when?

Operation game theft, your supposed to report poaching/illegal hunting.

I never said that. I don't like being told what to do, period. The guy that hunts for necessity doesnt care about when or how many either.

I've said it a million times, we need rules. We've always had to hunt by rules so we've really always been told what we can and can't shoot. But now the rules have come down to a specific inch width on antlers and having to judge those inches on a live buck prior to pulling the trigger, that's getting a bit too rule anal IMO. It's not like a fish that you can catch, measure then throw back.

Try my area of my county in comparison. You can not kill any does period unless you are member of the local WMA coop. None during archery or general season or late ML season. I joined the coop knowing I needed does killed since none of the neighbors are members of the coop. I can get one doe permit (MLD) per 200 acres in my area. I like some of what ARs do for a deer herd but do not like what they are doing for over population in my area of the county. This area should run a deer to 15-17 acres and it is going to be more like a deer to 7-8 acres instead due to not enough deer be taken off. Two bad dry years followed by a below average rainfall this year has helped with recruitment, but that will all fall to the way side if we get 2-3 yrs of above normal rainfall with an aging over populated doe herd. Habitat is going to suffer tremendously.

I know...was just giving you a hard time

As I said earlier, I wouldn't want them on my place

Should have shot them all as yearling spikes

Does

Right on.

I just want to know if the warden aged it or looked at it yet

can't speak for all ar county's but here I can, the game biologist for the county aged the deer coming into processors as well as weighed them but not anymore. Guess they got enough data..?

He no longer is the biologist in that area so different biologist bring different work schedules and places they choose to focus on.

I call bs! Anyone that's ever hunted LF has to some degree hoped there neighbor let the small buck make it ,that cares anything about shooting a trophy deer on there place as it appears you do. ( or do you change with the crowd like the dems?)

it could be an honest mistake.

Navasot , I know Mike left the job but wasn't sure why he didn't get replaced or how they did it in other ar county's .

He did I met the new biologist the year after mike left. Seemed like a nice guy I got his card in my wallet somewere if I can find it ill pm you the name and number

A neighbor shooting a young deer is an annoyance, but I'm not entitled to label that deer as mine and understand there's a risk involved with letting any deer walk. I'm more annoyed by 13-16" 2-3yo bucks getting shot than any yearling. I let them walk, but I'm willing to make that gamble and everyone knows when you gamble you win some and you lose some, but there's no need to put regulations in place.

Ha got it PM sent. Hes outa the rusk office

Thanks

Mr. Scott are you going to answer the table fare question...quality of venison question ??? Do you hunt an AR county ? Do you own or hunt a MLD ? Do you hunt in East Texas ? TPWD is doing their job ??? For who ? Antler hunters...do you really think older >13" inside spread bucks taste better ?? Improved genetics ?? Then how about those basket racks that will never be killed ?? If you own. hunt or manage an MLD do you let all <13" inside spread bucks walk ?

rick

to answer your question:

I hunted in Walker county Pre-AR for 5 years. I currently hunt on occasion Colorado County, Atascosa County and Comal County

The best table fare imo is a yearling doe, but, barring that....a yearling spike which is legal is the next best thing.

The basket back bucks that are truly less than 13" make up such a small minority of a herd yet are the first argument put up by Anti-AR folks.

And I think, based on the number of properties that I've been on in AR counties(quite a few) that TPWD is doing a good job of balancing the age classes(original intent) by implementing AR's

the herd is no longer made up of older does being bred by 1 1/2 year old and 2 year old bucks.

I don't hunt primarily in a AR county but in 20 years we have maybe killed a handful of mature bucks that were at or around 13" inside. most were around 14-15"

Get ready for the "just shoot a doe reply".
#1 they make it sound easy and like anyone can shoot a doe all season #2 they make the existence of a doe sound so insignificant.

same argument can be said for bag limits in general. we can "what if" all day long.


South texas used to be no doe OTC way back when, you had to get doe tags at the courthouse based on the # of acres you owned. the restrictions placed on AR counties isn't put in place to punish AR county hunters, its to help manage a PUBLIC RESOURCE

Same as slot limits for Largemouth bass on certain lakes

It's not to manage a public resource, it's for job security to screw stuff up and them claim to have a fix. Blanket mgmt is just bad mgmt, plain and simple.

You can catch a bass, measure it and release it.
Were the deer herds of Texas REALLY suffering enough for ARs to be implemented in the first place? Or was it folks fussing because there weren't enough big racks out there to suit them?
Are ARs more or less managing a certain type of deer hunters resource more than a general public resource?

yup

Mr. Scott I have a legit question and I ask because I don't know...genetically what is the difference if a 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old buck breeds a doe versus a 5 1/2 year old? His genetics are the same no matter what the age...correct? So allowing a buck to age does nothing to improve the genetics in the herd...correct? Aging only allows the buck to (hopefully for trophy hunters) grow bigger antlers...correct? It does not improve venison quality...correct?

rick

You seem very tense...

Just shoot a doe...

Rick

I don't know about quality, as we've only once ever had a bad-tasting deer (1987), but allowing them to age sure improves the quantity of venison I get off of a buck.

Older bucks have better reproductive success.

No sir not tense at all...thought the questions were legit...maybe not ? would shoot a doe if it were legal (actually my son or grandson would...I'm crippled up)...learned not to be tense about anything while sitting in a 5" 54 Gun Mount aboard a Tin Can...

rick

Do you get doe days coming up Thursday to sunday?

No sir...

rick

That sucks. What county are you in?

Pretty much thats it but you still have the few that will cry about shooting anything that they wold have passed on or would love to shoot and make any kind of fuss about just to be that way .
Face it it will be there until they decide it's been long enough and lift the AR's but until then it is what it is and going on on about it does nothing.
Now just go get some meat in the freezer be it a 1.5 yr doe or spike and if you want a 200+ class deer go to man made deer farm and pay for it it's that simple.
One thing i will say is that shooting a spike or 1.5 yr buck is IMHO just as bad as shooting an AR buck so why not put a law in place on shooting nubbin bucks?

you are correct in saying that a 1 1/2 year old buck has the same genetics now that he will at 5 years old. but the difference is you won't be able to see his full genetic potential at 1 1/2 years old. allowing a buck to age improves the genetics because good bucks get to breed for more than one or two seasons, spreading their genes around. the bigger, stronger bucks get to breed leaving the weaker bucks(that may or may not have good genes) in the dust. if all the mature bucks are gone its a free for all with just the young immature bucks breeding, there is nothing to regulate them from breeding (older, stronger bucks running them off does). Remember, not all mature bucks will have trophy class antlers. antler size is a by product of age and nutrition. But the stronger, healthier bucks will be the ones doing the breeding.

as far as venison quality goes, its has more to do with diet than age.

You cannot manage for venison quality.

or go shoot your does on a MLD ranch in the hill country its that simple

Bigger racks = overall healthier deer herds.
I guess.

I am with you and your sig kind of says it all !

So has the warden looked at it yet?

Question of the day right there.

It is better than no management. Which was what we had on 98% of places in east TX.

That's my position. When I bought my place it was "shot out"-first two years spikes and goatheads were all you saw. ARs came along. And the results speak for themselves. I understand I have played a big role with my mostly leaving them be. But without my neighbors being forced to do the same (at least to some extent) it would have all been for nought.

If everybody was like us I agree ARs would have been unnecessary. But everybody is not like us-the proof of this is the sorry state most places were in. Which led to ARs in the first place.

Or the biologist I don't care who I just want to know what the official age was

I have not heard for sure as of yesterday when i talked to her , at first her son had said the the GW did age it at 3.5 but the she told me that it was the guy at the prosser that had told him that .As of now the GW has the head and has gave the meat to a local charity there.

If all you had was spikes and does how did AR's do anything for you? Your spikes were still legal and according to you that's all you had for the first 2 years. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm

I would also like to see some of the big bucks you have killed as a result of the ARs being in place. Post up some pictures of your success story.

Where exactly do you hunt now?

I've dealt with shot out places pre-AR and you could turn them around by training several generations of deer and leaving them alone. One of the bigger problems over there was doe numbers getting ungodly, bucks trying to cover all of them and getting run down beyong recovery. That's not a hunter goof up and it's not a situation that gives folks good opportunity to see the older bucks out competing for does.

It's about money. Deer hunting is a business and it's a big business in Texas. The state rakes in a lot of tax dollars and so do the feds. Bigger racks do = healthier herds because deer don't grow a big rack until the rest of the nutritional needs are met. That's why it takes age. Earlier mineral intake goes to developing bones and body structure before antler development.

It has done great things for us. But we do have the genetics for deer to get big with age alone. But other counties do not and can see that being a problem

I don't think they have antler restrictions up North and they grow some monsters up there. I'm not just talking antlers but more so, body size. They do stuff like deer drives and shoot whatever runs by them. Sound management program.

They also have 2 week seasons to hunt as well as 1/100th the deer we have in texas. Therefore not a lot of competition to eat all they want of the big farmland crops....

Thanks to ARs or has that always been the case?

Not sure Curly,good question . I'll call Tiffany and ask her , Lee has been stuckup lately ....

lets make east texas counties shotgun only for 7 or 10 days and then see how much they complain.

Or remove ARs and go back to the way it use to be and see how much they complain. They being y'all.

wouldn't bother me as I will hunt outside AR counties.

but people like Dr. Noggy is who I feel for. if that were to happen he may become a high fence convert after all

Well fellas, you have me convinced. AR's do indeed suck for you fellas.

TP&W has learned that a significant majority of hunters want to see a balanced deer herd and want an improved chance of harvesting a mature buck. If Curly and others were on the crapper when the poll was taken, well, that's their own fault.

I have to admit that the meat hunters here have a legitimate valid claim. Unfortunately, their idea of a proper deer herd is simply not shared by most modern hunters. And TP&W is responding to the will of the majority.

So, what can the meat hunters do? Since they don't seem to want to compile scientific data to support their argument, I would suggest that they discard factual evidence and replace it with white noise.

Call your state rep and state senator and express your anger and frustration. If he, or she, agrees (it will cost you lots of lobbying money) maybe your Austin rep can create enough turmoil in Austin that the legislature will put pressure on TP&W to change its rules, even without scientific data to back it.

It's been done before; it's still being done every day....in Austin, and in Washington.

Better yet make the entire state AR... no exception allowed...not even MLDs...then lets see the complaints...remember TPWD and all pro AR folks say..."It's not about the money or trophy racks..." It is all about herd improvement...

rick

dawaba...I attended the meetings in 3 counties...I truly believe that the majority were against AR...but sir it is about money plain and simple...bigger antlers equal higher lease fees...I have also sent emails with data... all be it non-professional and have received exactly zero response...TPWD website states...not for trophy antler management... Also, didn't this research come from Kerr Management ? A hot bed of East Texas habitat...

rick

They do have AR's up North. I was reading about how PO'd people were in MI but instead of inside antler rule it was done by number of points. Many of them were just as irritated as many Texans. I know I am seeing more mature deer than in the past a few have good racks but a lot of them are of the tall narrow variety that I hope will spread as they age. No hope for the 2-3 yr old forked horned deer and nothing can do about it but hope the big 8 or 10 kicks his butt.

I am for AR 's in every county. No more culling the herd. If that little 12" wide 8pt that's 3.5 years keeps breeding your does then so be it. Then shoot those big trophy bucks and what is left? How bout it boys?

Maybe you should have sent a large check in with your complaint. THAT would have gotten a bigger response and a certain reply!

I spent quite a lot of time at Kerr back in the early seventies, where I was just a go-fer minion. That was the hot bed of population dynamics back then. I'm sure some extrapolation was done there that wasn't fair to EasTex, perhaps.

But I know tons of research came out of Overton, at the Extension service there. And the timber companies helped too....Temple was very big, as I recall. The Forestry Dept at Stephen F. was a player too.

And of course, there was the input of the public. East Texans were justifiably ashamed of their deer. And most wanted a better hunting experience. The result was the AR system, a flawed but largely successful program. And it does what it was intended to do, mostly.

And near term, TP&W isn't inclined to go back to the old days. That is unless someone can offer some tangible, accurate, scientific data on why we should do so.

Ashamed of our deer???

Are you serious? Tons of research on Antler Restrictions came from a 1 acre pen in Overton, Tx? I would love to hear the results of that research considering that research was done 10 or more years before ARs were considered.

Oh, and the guys that poached and killed the deer from the pen before the "research" was finished didn't care how big their antlers were either.

The only way someone could be ashamed of a deer is if they put too much emphasis on how the headbones look.
That's just plain old vanity.

I'm still very interested to hear about this research in the pen in Overton. That was in my back yard. I guess I missed it when they used their crystal ball and did the AR research 10+ years before it's time.

Funny...meat hunters take offense all the time because you feel that the trophy hunters are looking down on them

Yet, here you are calling them vain and degrading their choice of hunting style.

Maybe it is vain, but I have shot a deer I was ashamed of. I wasn't ashamed because his antler size, I was ashamed because of his age. Guess that makes me vain

Were you ashamed of the venison of those deer?

Have not seen many anti AR folks tell antler hunters to take up golf or knitting or fishing...or that since we were on the crapper tough luck...or send money...

rick

I can remember shooting one deer that I wished I had not shot. It was a day hunt and I shot what I thought was a Doe with my Bow. I didn't even get down and go look until the Outfitter showed up. I told him I got a Doe and we went to get it and it was a nubbin. The Outfitter had already told us there was a $300 fine if anyone shot a nubbin. So, I just got out my checkbook and wrote him a check. He took the check and ripped it up and said "it happens". I felt bad for breaking the rules but it sure was tasty. Those South Texas nubbins are as big as our grown Does. Lesson learned.

Deer season must be pretty dang bad if this AR thread is at 16 pages and counting.

I've shot some bucks that had what some would call ugly antlers and wasn't ashamed of any of them. My dad taught me to be like that. In fact, those antlers are displayed on plaques in my man cave. I took their life and never took them for granted or was ashamed. That's just me though.

It's cold and raining! Nobody hunts in this weather!

I won't be chiming in starting tomorrow through Sunday. I'll be in the deer woods....well except for Thanksgiving day.
AR lovers rejoice.

Temple helped out by letting SFA kids research a heinz 57 herd trailered in from Freer out to Boggy that already had a heavy KS gene pool. They also set in motion to switch most of their tracts of size into MLD so they could stairstep their lease fees from $3-5/AC up to $10-12 to show it had more income potential before selling it to Campbell.

Good for you. I have to work through Wednesday so I won't get to head to the lease until I get my belly full Thursday. I'll have lots of left-overs to take with me though.

You aren't supposed to know that facts. You're just supposed to assume everything he said was true. Like the AR research in Overton.

how is it going to hurt a population to kill the bucks that are 5 and 6 years old?

they have been breeding for 4 years.

that argument holds no water

Anybody want to know what the research really was in Overton??? Lets just say it involved a bunch of Aggies feeding deer different things and then measuring their testicles.

I will be off starting tomorrow.. have my feeders all full in Broaddus and a Mr. Buddy heater already in the stand.

Peen restrictions next?

I bought a boat from a guy in Broaddus last year and really liked how that area looks. Lots of good looking woods around there.

Most of it is NF...we're situated right in the middle of a bunch of it and a stretch of COE land. It's alright, serves its purpose as a buffer between the Attoyac & LA.

Of course, you are correct. No one should be ashamed of the deer they harvest.

I should have said: Ashamed of their deer herd, or perhaps ashamed of their deers' age balance.

I've never been ashamed of any deer I've observed or killed. Respectful, yes. A bit remorseful, yes. But never ashamed.

I love the "ugly" deer. Just don't see a point in killing a young deer when there are other options and when I did, I felt ashamed. Just me though.

Dunno how many Aggies are at Overton. Likely, some.

I have a son-in-law whose dad works at the Overton office. He's definitely not an Aggie. I think he went to Tyler Jr College. Perhaps elsewhere too. But not TAMU, for sure.

So why did you shoot them in the first place? Accidentally? Not meaning to be a terd...serious question.

Are you going to fill us in on the ground-breaking research they did in Overton in regards to ARs or just leave us hanging?

Well, I was long gone myself from the TAMU wildlife circles by the time the ARs were implemented. I was very much interested in the wildlife pathology work at the Veterinary Diagnostic Lab under Mick Robinson, and so was on the periphery of the AR study. Gary Hartsell at A&M (last I heard, he was at NC State)had a lot of input. Billy Higginbotham at Overton was heavily involved too, I know. But so was Temple EastTex and SFA (James Kroll at Boggy Creek perhaps?). Others were doubtlessly contributing too.

I don't believe that I said everything was done in Overton, or at TAMU, or even in the state of Texas, for that matter. I'm sure ideas and data came from many sources.

Also, I've never said the AR policy was beyond reproach. It is flawed. It is imperfect. But, It DOES do what it was intended to do......to make a more balanced deer herd in the AR counties. Before ARs, buck/doe ratios were typically 1 to 10 and occasionally 1 to 20. That's not natural, and I doubt many of us want to see those days again.

So are you saying the purpose of ARs is to balance the buck to doe ratio? And if so, what are you basing your conclusion that they have done that on?

Misjudged him, so guess it was an accident. Shot a 2.5yo nine point that still sticks with me. What is sad, it was a fun hunt. Spotted him at over 600 yards and stalked him. I would have rather gone without.

That's the way deer huntin go.

How do ARs correct buck to doe ratios ? Heck killing more does solves unbalanced ratios...let us kill does all season long...keep the limit at 2 does per season...rocket science...

rick

I would just like to see as many deer as I use to, forget the buck to doe ratios.

That statement that is underlined tells me that you really don't know where or IF any studies or research in regards to ARs was ever done. You are trying to argue for them based on data and studies that never happened as far as you know. And you have come to the conclusion that they have achieved their goal without any evidence of that either. I have lived and hunted in this County my entire life and I can tell you this. No studies were done nor data collected from this County prior to the inception of ARs. It's a regulation that TP&W never had the resources or manpower to study prior to implementation. They just threw it out there and let the cards land where they may. For some it helps and others it does damage. I only hope there are changes made in the Counties it's damaging before it's too late.

Bowslayer, you are channeling your dislike of the AR system into a personal attack on me. You obviously disapprove of the policy and, for some reason, wish to direct your anger at me.

I'm not the guy who can help your cause. Call Lee Bass or Nolan Ryan. They've served on the TP&W board; I never have.

Call your local game biologist who works for the state and chew on him. Try complaining to the Extension service in Overton or elsewhere. Call up your state rep. Heck, write a letter to Gov Perry....he's a big hunter.

But shooting at me is only missing your target. Just because we disagree, and we are on different sides of the AR fence, doesn't mean I can help you.

I'm feeling just a bit like the innocent stroller enjoying his evening walk that suddenly gets attacked by one of those hoodlums playing the Knockout Game.

How the heck did I attack you? You have to be kidding me?

You started throwing out things about studies and data and I asked where you got your info and you admitted you basically had no idea. You have very thin skin sir. Enjoy your stroll.

Dismantle TPWD and funnel $ into the actual available public land and fisheries.. The private sector can do just fine, it's done it for years. Folks have figured out there's $ to be made. It's not like a person can't go kill 200 deer in the state now and not be figured into any state bag limits.

I was a wildlife major at A&M before they were about to pass the ARs (2000-2004).

I was at a public hearing during that time period and the TPWD panel is a big joke (when Nolan Ryan was on the board all he did was sit back reading the newspaper). Every issue that came up was met with the same response... "We can't do anything about it, it's all up to the legislature, blah blah blah" big bunch of carp. It is just a formality that they have to go through.

TPWD's mind was made up and so was the legislature's long before the public even knew ARs were going to be passed.

If you write your congressman, the TPWD commission or the governor your letter will get thrown in the pile and you will get the standard "Thank you for contacting etc, etc, etc" form letter a year later and nothing will be done about it.

There are two things that make this world go 'round and money is one of them. The big money spoke a long time ago on ARs and will continue to do so as long as Texas keeps producing trophy bucks and people keep buying the equipment marketed towards it.

You've asked Dawaba for proof backing up his statements...can you back up yours?

BowSlayer asked first. One answer at a time.

Ummm, yes I can. I have never nor have any of my MANY hunting friends or family had a deer checked by anyone. Furthermore I have close friends with processing facilities in the County and I have actually worked in one of them quite a bit and neither of them have been involved in any data collection or study. If there was a study in the County (there wasn't) it was nothing more than pizzing in the wind.

Oh, and one more thing. One of my leases here is MLD 3 and has been for years. I asked the Biologist for the County one day if they had studied this County prior to ARs. His response was "not that I know of". They did a "study" in a handful of Counties and then blanketed all of East Texas with the regs.

From what I saw on data, they took data from LAMPs programs and excluded MLD3. I remember being ticked off when I saw it bc we had submitted more buck harvest records as a club as they had for the entire county over the time frame.

Curly, I'm not worried about bowslayer getting his answer, I want mine


Ah...now I see

All you have to do is go to the TP&W website and it lists which Counties were involved in the studies. Mine is not one of them.

I can't believe that this "I SAID---HE SAID" scuffle has gone on for 42 pages! It has devolved into merely a cage fight, no more.

One of my high school classmates was killed in Vietnam. In one of his last letters home, he said he knew at the beginning why he was fighting over there, and very clearly so. But lately, he'd plum forgotten why....

You have enough posts on this forum to know how things work on a social media site. This is a debate on ARs and it does get heated. So what? At the end of the day I'll still go to bed and sleep just fine ARs or not. You can't jump into these threads with both feet and then get offended when someone calls on something you said. It's not a "personal attack", it's a debate. Without them this site would dry up. It keeps us occupied and sometimes actually makes us use our brains. I would be willing to bet your buddy wasn't fighting over there for us to hand over our liberties at every corner to the government. I'm not "angry" at you. I wouldn't know you if you walked up and slapped me. I do know a little about the debate topic (ARs) in this County though and called you out on it. What you posted was not true so you took it personally. Lighten up man, it's just an internet forum.

BowSlayer is not interested in discussion dawaba. For some, AR hatred is so strong they sacrifice civility and rationality in order to attack them. All opposed are the enemy and liars.

When called on their BS, they either say "Who me? I did not", up the ante on the personal attacks/smartarse comments, or both.

Not worth discussing the topic anymore.

Welcome to the Octagon sucka! This is the THF, not Vietnam.

Then why are you here? Talk about the Pot and the Kettle. When I ask you a serious question all I hear is crickets.

We've played this game before. I answer. You ignore the answer because you don't like it, and keep on with your BS. Your kind are a dime a dozen on here.

Here's the difference between me and you as I see it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have never once told you that ARs don't work in your County. I have never argued with you about deer population in your County or Buck to Doe ratio in your County. I have never told you that YOU are the cause of any problems in your County and not the regs.

You on the other hand have done all of the above to me. It's easy to debate with someone that doesn't have a clue about the County I live AND hunt in.

I offered once to do a one question/one answer debate with you on the subject. I offered to let you start the questions or I would. You declined. I can't say that I blame you. Only a fool would start a fight he couldn't win.

And then you pop up out of nowhere (after completely skipping the legitimate questions) and call me out. On a matter that was not even related to you too. Yep, I'm the bad guy alright.

I assume you won't respond since it's "not worth discussing" and more and that's perfectly fine with me. You have nothing to add about my area anyway. It's all just hot air.

And visa versa, especially the liars part.

Bottom line is this: I know Rusk county. I have explained my background with it multiple times. Yet you either ignore it or call me a liar. Because that's all you can do.

Bottom, bottom line is this: If you can't kill a 13" or greater buck in Rusk county, you are either a poor hunter, hunting a poor place, or both. Period.

Argue and insult all you want.

You said it correctly. Anti-AR folks have NEVER said they don't work in all areas. We have even said they are glad they are working in in certain areas. They just don't seem to be working in ours. If they did seem to be working for us, we would be pro-AR folks....DUH! Some folks apparently just can't comprehend that. They blow it out of proportion and think we want it taken away state wide.

"...they sacrifice..." heck pro ARs are to quick to tell antis to take up golf, fish or you suck at hunting or you were on the crapper...come on NP you are better than that...

rick

I have to admit you're a funny, funny man.

For all the readers that don't know let's fill them in on your details.

NP had never lived in Rusk County. He live "near" Rusk County. NP has never sat in a blind in Rusk County. Nope, not once. NP has friends that send him pictures via text message of big bucks killed in Rusk County every year.

I don't know how a guy that has lived and hunted in Rusk County on the same property from the same blind for 30 years can argue with those numbers.

I have never called you or anyone else a liar. That's the butt-hurt AR-hater tactic.

That's all lies and you know it. I was born and raised 5 miles from the Rusk county line. My grandparents lived there since the 50s.I was killing deer in Rusk county probably before you were born. But, you know this and must lie to keep up this charade....

Since ARs are so great make them state wide with no exceptions...

rick

I hunted Rusk county last year with a bumper a few times.... saw a few, but didn't have a clear shot bc of those pesky 4 strand fences.

I said you lived "near" there. 5 miles is "near" there isn't it. You told me before that you didn't hunt there. I apologize if I was wrong. So when was the last time you hunted Rusk County?

And we were having such a civil conversation

You guys need to go get some Preparation H.

I asked you this before and never got an answer NP so here goes again.

Was it not you that posted in another thread that you had gotten on a lease in the Hill Country and you love it because you actually see deer when you hunt? And you said ARs are working in Houston County because you see more deer while driving through the County now? Maybe that was somebody else?

maybe yall should get apointed to the board that makes these AR rules. then you can have it your way. I dont like obama but i just wait and try to vote his kind out next time. no boohoo because my side lost last time. Go to the meeting they have every year to talk about thes things they let you talk and say your opiniion. crying about it hear don't help.

I never told you any such thing. I in fact told you I have hunted and killed deer there since before you were born. But you have all the facts, even if you have to make them up. I'm done with you. Answer your own questions about me, about everything. It's what you do best.

Thank goodness. I'm getting bored with you.

I wish they'd appoint me to the board..I'd really give y'all something to complain about.

I don't like the idea of antler restrictions, but this is a bit much. Character attacks don't hardly seem necessary to carry out a discussion on the matter.

The problem is you are so consumed with being right that you don't even realize that was a question. That's why it had a question mark on the end. Because I was asking a question. Get it?

But you still don't know how to quit him...

I know how, but that's no fun.

That's your idea of sportin', is it?

Why do you care? The guy jumped in out of nowhere and bashed me so I had a little fun with it. So I guess the answer is yes, it was "sportin".

Calm down. I was just messing with you.

That's my idea of sportin'.

And that was a Broke Back reference. It was supposed to be humorous.

I'm calm brother. Almost to the point of laying down for the night.

Brokeback AR debate. That's a new one!

ARs has made hunting sporting finally.... you can shoot a bunch of 12.75" wide bucks and leave them until you get one that meets the requirements, no different than throwing back bull reds until you catch one you finally want to use that tag on. I mean if you've already committed a game violation, what's the point in not breaking another by wasting the meat, you can go pick up the rack later on as a dead head later on anyway.

I never saw the movie, just heard a few pop culture references.

Promise.

Likely story

uh huh..it's probably been DVR'd for years and you're scared to watch it bc you just might enjoy it.

Better watch it RM... ole Sneaky might sneak up behind you.

I bet coyotes and buzzards have appreciated ARs.

Hey, you two get back to arguing AR's. This ain't gonna work.

So...you are saying ETX hunters can't be trusted?

East Texans are just the smartest breed of hunter there is....we can skin a buck, run a trot line, avoid a fine...etc.

Agreed - where I hunt we have til around Thanksgiving to take a doe, which if you add bow season is around 2 months. There are also late antlerless seasons to take advantage of in most counties.

I'm sorry, but as others have said how can you not take a legal buck, spike, or doe in that time frame? I call

What if ya dont bowhunt? In hopkins co. we have 4 days! Wich i guess is plenty because the population has dropped a bunch in the 5yrs AR rules and bag limits have been around. We all want to see big bucks but if your not seeing em after 5+ yrs in and the overall population has dropped dramaticly then something needs to change. Have lived and hunted my property for 26yrs now and there was more deer before AR than after. Used to see several deer each time i went to the stand and most were does and small bucks with the good buck every now and then. Now im lucky to see a deer when i hunt and with the bag limit at 2 does and 2 bucks and not likely to change any time soon its only gonna get worse.

we dont' have to. alot of places implement self imposed AR's. that's they shoot big deer.

if AR's were in effect for every county that would be fine.

"we dont' have to. alot of places implement self imposed AR's. that's they shoot big deer.

if AR's were in effect for every county that would be fine."



Since we lawless, east Texas rednecks don't know how to control ourselves when we hunt and just go out and shoot whatever we want, the TPWD has to step in an tell us that we should hunt like all those big time west Texas boys huh??? I see how it is.

You think that doesn't happen anywhere ARs exist? Why profile East Texas?

You complain that you only get 4 doe days then you say your population has dropped dramatically because of AR . Sounds like you have poachers around ? Or maybe neighbors are feeding deer more than before and pulling them?
We have a month long doe season here and personally I wished we had the 4 day one... Some people use all there tags just because it's legal..common sense goes along ways....for instance My family hunts on 400 acres I have 5 kids that hunt as well as me and my wife. That's 28 deer if we legally used all our tags! We may shoot 6 deer this yr . If every hunter used every tag they legally could, the deer populations would dramatically drop everywhere .