Texas Hunting Forum
Back me up???Or Not????
Posted By: 7mag
Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:19 AM
Really curious, on this topic and have given it alot of thought. How many of you would want a guide or a hunting buddy to back you up on a shot. It can be any shot, whether bow, rifle ect. Is it ethical???? Or do you want to know YOU shot they animal and its yours to brag about ect????? I am kinda 2 sided on this with all the different siutations one could possibly be placed into. I am open to all and any ideas, so put em out there???
Posted By: HunterTed
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:23 AM
Depended on the animal...............Cape buffalo.........DEFINATELY........w
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:24 AM
If I feel I can't make the shot myself, then I won't take it. So no I would not want someone backing up my shot.
Posted By: 7mag
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:24 AM
Quote:
Depended on the animal...............Cape buffalo.........DEFINATELY........w
yeah me too
Posted By: 7mag
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:31 AM
Sorry, if a mod can just add this with the poll, it's ok with me. Didn't mean to post it like this, but went south
Posted By: pyledriver
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:32 AM
Agree with the comments about the animal, and with not taking the shot if not comfortable. Having said that, I'll relate a story that almost resulted in me ripping a buddy's head off..
We were hunting in south Texas for Javelina and some of the group had already shot theirs. I wanted to shoot mine with a pistol, especially after we had accidentally walked up on a couple groups already that day. We spotted some around the edge of a sendero, just over a small rise. So I get my pistol for the big sneak. I noticed my buddy following along behind me with his AR. I was a little annoyed, but didn't want to say anything lest we make any noise and ruin the stalk. Well, I get within pistol range and take careful aim, and about a millisecond after I drop the hammer HE SHOOTS HIS AR! I turned around and yelled 'what the #!@#%^! do you think you're DOING!!?!?? He says 'I was helping you in case you missed'. I told him if he EVER did anything even remotely like that again he would find out first hand just how good a shot I can be with a pistol! To this day I'd still like to wring his neck when I think about it!
Posted By: 7mag
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:36 AM
Ok understood
What about a bad misplaced shot??? A less lethal shot and the animal is fleeing wounded. Your buddy has a backup, what do you think???
Depends....usually yes. I've been where I depended on buddies for more backup than that...glad to have it. Been hog hunting, usually one scoped rifle gets to shoot first, CQB sights open up after that...
Posted By: pyledriver
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:46 AM
I could go along with that..
Posted By: tgil
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:51 AM
Note to self: "don't make a follow up shot if you ever hunt with Randy again"
Cape buffalo was the first thing that came to mind when I began reading this thread. A buddy loaned me a video called "Death By The Ton". It is by a PH in Africa named Mark Sullivan. They are shooting the side by side double barreled rifles. The "customer" wouls fire his two rounds, then the guide would put two more in the animal, and soemtimes more! To each his own, but if I have to shoot an animal so big that that much lead is required, I think I'm out!
I guess it all depends on the situation. If I had made a bad shot and wasn't able to get another, I guess I'd rather someone help me out rather than lose an animal.
Posted By: Cool_Hand
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:00 AM
Yes
But not tomorrow!!!!!
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:01 AM
If it is buddies on a free lance hunt, that is something that needs to be worked out ahead of time.
As a client on a guided hunt, many times you do not have the option.
If the first shot does not put the animal down, there will be follow up shots to drop the animal.
The kill is credited to the original shooter.
I am gonna say this, and some folks may not like it, but I think a lot of folks have not shot enough game to realize that not everything, including white tail deer and javelina are DRT at the sound of the shot.
I always back up my clients, tell them that when we go out the first morning, and if a javelina makes it into the brush wounded, I go in by myself.
I do not want to get shot by someone who is excited over a snapping/popping javelina tearing thru the greasewood and I don't want to shoot someone if the javelina gets past my first shot.
On Celebrity Ranch, it is one of the ranch rules on their Trophy Hunts, if the clients shot does not drop the animal, the guide will.
In Africa, every shot a client takes, except birds with a shotgun, will be backed up by the PH if neccessary.
On my trips to Canada, I actually was quite uncomfortable with the fact that in the provinces I hunted, if the hunter screwed up, the hunter had to sort things out, guides were not allowed to carry firearms, period.
While many folks want to kill the animal themself, sometimes that just isn't practical.
Just like the first conversation I had with the outfitter I hunt with in Colorado.
I asked him what to do if I was lucky enough to get a shot at an elk, and his words basically were, "Keep shooting that S.O.B. till it drops".
A wounded elk can run for miles.
The problem comes when someone pulls a stunt like Pyledriver related and is too quick on the trigger. JMO.
Posted By: PHishTX
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:02 AM
When I take a shot it is with the intention that I will not need a backup !!!
When I was younger my dad was going to get me a .22. But he wouldn't get me a semi-auto like my friends had. He explained to me that if you are going to shoot I need to concentrate and make THE shot count!! (We settled on a pump, though.)
When I was old enough to by myself a rifle I got a Ruger No.1----- SINGLE SHOT.
Aim small miss small.
Now as far as bagging/tagging the animal. First blood, gets the last blood and tag.....If the first shot results in an tracking/wounded game. I might have to put the animal down if the situation calls for it.....
I don't see the need for "back-up" in the US, native game.
Posted By: 7mag
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:02 AM
Quote:
Yes But not tomorrow!!!!!
LMAO, I am on my own huh?????? Looking forward to getting a few of them speedy quail
Posted By: 7mag
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:04 AM
Quote:
When I take a shot it is with the intention that I will not need a backup !!!
When I was younger my dad was going to get me a .22. But he wouldn't get me a semi-auto like my friends had. He explained to me that if you are going to shoot I need to concentrate and make THE shot count!! (We settled on a pump, though.)
When I was old enough to by myself a rifle I got a Ruger No.1----- SINGLE SHOT.
Aim small miss small.
Now as far as bagging/tagging the animal. First blood, gets the last blood and tag.....If the first shot results in an tracking/wounded game. I might have to put the animal down if the situation calls for it.....
I don't see the need for "back-up" in the US, native game.
Not even on Brown Bear and Grizzlers????
Posted By: big10
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:06 AM
if i could be in danger then ya i want a backup
Posted By: JCB
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:08 AM
I guess my question is if more than one person puts a bullet into a given animal......will it be eligible for the recored books like Boone and Crockett?
Posted By: 7mag
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:09 AM
Quote:
I guess my question is if more than one person puts a bullet into a given animal......will it be eligible for the recored books like Boone and Crockett?
hmmmmmmmmmmmm great post and more so excellent question. I knew this would have TONS of scenarios
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:17 AM
I could understand the guide going in after the jevalina to finish it off. But just because the deer I shot doesn't fall right away doesn't mean it needs a second shot. I would not pay for a hunt to have the guide shot the deer just because it ran off. A dangerous animal I could understand if it was coming in our direction. But I never plan to hunt outside the U.S., and have no desire to kill a bear.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:29 AM
I just looked at the Boone and crockett site and could not find anything against an animal being killed with a follow up shot by another person.
As long as the person that tags the animal, does so with a tag in their name, nothing is wrong.
The only thing that was mentioned was party hunting and the person shooting the animal allows the animal to be tagged by another person.
In the case of the big bears, many times the guides for what ever reason will back up the hunter if the bear is still on its feet and moving after the initial hit.
What many folks don't understand, due to terrain/vegetation/time of shot/assumed placement of first shot, and other factors, allowing an animal to run till it goes down on its own, just is not practical.
Posted By: JCB
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:37 AM
The reason that I asked that question is because of a buck that I saw in the Legendary Whitetails exibit a few years ago.
The deer in question was shot at by two people at the same time and was only hit once. Since the two hunters did not know who actually hit the deer it was not allowed in the B&C recored books. I just always wondered after seeing that....what if both shots had hit that deer would it be honered?
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:55 AM
That is different than a follow up shot.
Two people shooting at the same animal at the same time, could be considered party hunting.
A follow up shot, a real honest to goodness follow up shot, is one where the animal is in a position, as I mentioned earlier, of terrain issues/time of day/vegatative cover or whatever, has a chance of either being lost to never be recovered or will be dangerous to the hunting party, then a follow up shot is warranted.
In those cases the person making the initial hit, is the one credited with the kill. Other shots are just considered anchoring or safety shots to keep from losing or being attacked by the animal in question.
I don't want the game animal crawling off and suffering, that's coming before pride of the shooter in my book. If we are there, we better agree on backing each other up, or we shouldn't be shooting together...if your attitude is..."Don't you shoot at my escaping wounded deer no matter what..." please don't come hunt with me. My wife's second deer ever, a nice 8 point, she shot him at 100 yards, down, staggered to his feet, staggered a bit, started walking steady, she planted him again. Right thing to do...first shot was lung, wasn't going far, but no need for tracking and the "anything" that can come next...she did the right thing. If I'd been there, I hope I would have been ready adn able to help too. If it's me, you be ready in case I only wound him....we'll slap high fives and you can have a picture too, but the animal cannot walk off and suffer.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 03:10 AM
One thing I have noticed on the THF and have made mention of in the past, is the concept of breaking an animal down is not highly thought of or talked about by the membership.
A lot of guides world wide, prefer that a client, when unsure of their ability to make a clean one shot kill on an animal, to use that first shot to take the front legs out from under the animal by breaking the shoulders, preferably both of them.
An animal can drag a broken hind leg or both hind legs a long way.
It is nearly impossible for an animal to push its self real far if it can not use its front legs.
Even on white tails, if your preferred shot placement is questionable, for what ever reason, and the shoulders offer a clear shot, try to put your bullet where both shoulders will be broken.
Yes, there will be some meat loss, but the meat that is lossed will not be as much as losing the whole animal. JMO.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 03:12 AM
I have never lost a deer, I have had some run a little, but never more than a hundred yards. Now if I was hunting with a guide, and made a horrible shot I would not get offended if they made a shot. But that is hard to determine in the heat of the moment. I feel very confident that I can find a deer that I have shot. The odds of them making a second shot that was better than my first isn't that good. I have never really hunted in a place that was open enough for a accurate second shot. IMO all a second shot would do in most cases is mess up more meat. It has nothing to do with pride, I don't want to see a animal suffer any more than anyone else. I just know that if I have any doubts that my bullet won't hit where I am aiming I WONT shoot. Therefore there should be no reason for a second shot. I can understand where you are coming from being a guide, I worked for a few years on charter fishing boats. And most of our clients didn't have a clue how to do anything. I think that I am experienced enough to make a good clean kill with one shot.
Quote:
I have never lost a deer, I have had some run a little, but never more than a hundred yards. Now if I was hunting with a guide, and made a horrible shot I would not get offended if they made a shot. But that is hard to determine in the heat of the moment. I feel very confident that I can find a deer that I have shot. The odds of them making a second shot that was better than my first isn't that good. I have never really hunted in a place that was open enough for a accurate second shot. IMO all a second shot would do in most cases is mess up more meat. It has nothing to do with pride, I don't want to see a animal suffer any more than anyone else. I just know that if I have any doubts that my bullet won't hit where I am aiming I WONT shoot. Therefore there should be no reason for a second shot. I can understand where you are coming from being a guide, I worked for a few years on charter fishing boats. And most of our clients didn't have a clue how to do anything. I think that I am experienced enough to make a good clean kill with one shot.
I understand. I feel the same way. I have never had to track one that I shot. Never even go far (about 30 yards is the furthest). But that said, if I have a partner there, I would think I would want them ready.
I've seen people that shouldn't miss, miss. BY miss, they're hitting the deer, but not in the sweet spot. I won't argue spots either, but I am a center of mass/heart lung shot guy. Never have been comfortable aiming at head/neck, when there is a better target.
I made a follow-up shot on an Axis a few weeks ago. Client MISSED at 60 yards, I thought it was a wouldn't Axis starting to run down into a canyon....used the old Texas Heart Shot...nearly didn't make new hole (about an inch). It's not great and sporty, but it's highly effective.
Come to find out, he hit a feeder leg, between him and the axis.
Posted By: Brother in-law
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 01:51 PM
I think that is one thing that the guide must determine before going on the hunt and that is what is the hunters experience or weakness. Most guided places for animals make you shoot in, if your client is all over the target then maybe some rules should be established by the guide or the outfit running the show, espeically since most wounded game counts as killed game on a big money game hunt.
I think the client should be told up front that the guide may help if need be. This is where it is hairy, when should the guide take it? I say after tracking it, or when the shooter isn't competant without the perfect shot (no rest) and is timid on the shot, then the guide may step in only after the first hit by the client.
As far as cape buffalo thats not even a question, of course help should be provided before it gets your arse.
As far as my buddies helping me, no way unless I say shoot it if you see it. As in pyledrivers situation that is uncalled for. I have several buddies that arent quite as nimble with the rifle as I am and I can put the truck in park and have an animal down before they get out of the passenger seat.
As long as the first shot is a HIT by the shooter I think the guide or buddy should use discretion, but a plan of attack usually helps.
Posted By: BradyBuck
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:03 PM
have any of yall seen the Elephant hunts on TV....now that is one animal that you have got to have a follow up shot.
Posted By: PHishTX
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:04 PM
I don't do the guided/pay hunt thing. Other than occasional waterfowl/geese.
But, If I ever took a shot that didn't draw blood (on a payed hunt) and the guide chose to "follow-up" I would not pay for the game that the GUIDE TOOK, !!!
Good advice....
Quote:
by tacosmell
As long as the first shot is a HIT by the shooter I think the guide or buddy should use discretion, but a plan of attack usually helps.
Posted By: Big Orn
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 02:37 PM
Quote:
Sorry, if a mod can just add this with the poll, it's ok with me. Didn't mean to post it like this, but went south
I can't add a poll to an active post, Roy.
Maybe JP or Darrell can...?
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 04:57 PM
Quote:
But, If I ever took a shot that didn't draw blood (on a payed hunt) and the guide chose to "follow-up" I would not pay for the game that the GUIDE TOOK, !!!
Most animals will show signs of a hit.
Under most circumstances a guide or PH, and this even works on the big stuff in Alaska and Africa, will be ready to fire if needed.
One thing that is happening that the shooter is not usually aware of, is the guide/PH is watching the animal and its reaction to the shot, EXCLUSIVE of what else is going on.
Under normal circumstances the guide/PH will be ready to shoot, and if at all possible they will holler for the client to shoot again.
Probably 90% of the time, a guide/PH only shoots when they have to, they are not out there to kill the clients game for them, they are there to ensure that a wounded animal doesn't get away.
As for the comment I quoted, that is one of the reasons why many places have gone to the policy of "Blood Drawn = Animal Killed".
If the guide/outfitter/PH does not make a stopping shot on an animal as it is departing the country side, and there is evidence that the client screwed the pooch on the shot, the hunt is either over, or the client has to buy another animal.
In cases where it is like elk/moose/mule deer or nearly all of the N.A. Big Game, a wounded or lost animal, may mean several years of building up preference points, or with the Once In A Lifetime hunts, never hunting that animal again.
The idea of having everyone in the hunting group on the same page as to when to shoot if needed helps a lot. JMO.
Posted By: tkuehn5410
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 07:25 PM
I think my pride would be hurt, but I like bone on the wall and meat in my fridge.
I definitely would want someone there to back me up. It makes my shot easier knowing that if my shot is a bit back or low I have a "big brother" backing me up. If it turns out I missed the deer and the guide ended up believing I hit the deer and finishing him off when I had missed, it would be unfortunate but ok by me. I have missed several times and knew I had missed on each shot. Just didn't feel right. I know I am not the best hunter in the world and see a good number of misses on tv shows.
I am a big fan of the blood drawn = buck taken theory. We had someone wound two good bucks this year on our lease. One was taken three weeks later and had the nastiest wound I have seen on a deer. In a 1 buck county it doesn't take too many wounded deer to negatively impact the herd.
I can understand each person's point. Especially, if the shot is good..., but I am speaking from marginal shots. I'll grant that most of you can shoot, no argument. But most hunters being able to shoot good, no, can't go there.
If we're going to be so sporting as to not even have the guy be ready in case he's needed, then have him close his eyes and turn his back, we shouldn't need any help tracking him either. Or loading him in the truck....
I think most guides have a good idea of IF a shot was a good one based on the animals' reactions, and other factors.
Posted By: 7mag
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 08:30 PM
Quote:
I don't do the guided/pay hunt thing. Other than occasional waterfowl/geese.
But, If I ever took a shot that didn't draw blood (on a payed hunt) and the guide chose to "follow-up" I would not pay for the game that the GUIDE TOOK, !!!
Good advice....
Quote:
by tacosmell
As long as the first shot is a HIT by the shooter I think the guide or buddy should use discretion, but a plan of attack usually helps.
Ok I am a little confused. Phillip are you saying if you hit an animal, more like a gut, rear quater ect shot and don't draw blood. If the guide shot the animal, after you wounded it, but no blood showing, you wouldn't pay for it???? Or am I going to deep in this??? Our web site has "any wounding of deer" blood drawn is considered a kill
Posted By: NETxHunter
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 10:35 PM
Strictly hypothetical (hopefully I spelled it right)...
A person takes a shot at a deer. The deer jumps up all stiff legged(giving the impression that he had been hit) and starts running away. The guide takes the back-up shot and the deer falls shortly after. They go to look at the deer and find there is only one entry and one exit wound. Who hit and who missed? Would B&C accept that scenerio. Would you be willing to pay for the hunt if you thought that your guide had shot the deer and he insisted that his shot missed? I wouldn't, but the likelyhood of this situation being true is slim to none.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 10:50 PM
That could very easily happen.
Since the hunter fired the initial shot, and is the one who will tag the animal, yes it will be accepeted by B&C.
Tell me one thing with your scenario, would you turn down having a B&C record buck because you MIGHT not have hit the thing with your shot, but the guide is claiming it is YOUR deer?????????
If you would not accept that buck, and refused to pay for that quality of animal, that would make you one person out of about 200,000 that would handle the situation that way
The problem with your scenario is, you fired the first shot.
The buck appeared to be hit.
The guide fired, but the deer in your scenario did not drop at the shot.
The guide could have flat missed.
On top of that, there is an exit wound, so there is no slug to do a balistics test on.
The guide was not paying for this hunt you were, that is why guided hunts normally have all monetary considerations taken care of BEFORE any hunting is done.
It is a buck that possibly makes B&C minimum, and you have no proof that you did not hit the animal.
Stranger things when shooting animals have happened.
Your hit and the guides hit, could have entered and exited at almost the exact same point on the animals body, and without a slug remaining inside the carcass, you will be paying for the hunt and your buck will be in the record book.
Posted By: bayourat
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 10:59 PM
Ok I'm a little hesistant to answer this because as Randall stated on a wounded animal the guide takes the gun and tracks down the game and finishes the animal. My question and reason for not answering is this how does the State view who took the animal in this situation. I'm not brave enough to put on here how many animals I've had to track and finish this year. I know of no guided hunts anymore where the guide will not administer the finishing shot if it is required. As Randall said its just a matter of safety, and plus the shooter is not already doubting his ability or equipment. Hunting big tuff dangerous game I would not hesitate asking for a back up shot. Refusing to do that is almost a situation of ego overiding intelligence. JMO
Posted By: hsuhunter
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 11:06 PM
i backed up a good friend of mine a few weeks ago on his 2nd deer ever. I believe we would have lost it if i hadn't. He made a shot that looked like a good hit, we watched her run and stop and then fall behind a bush. 2 other deer walked up and stared at her for a long time and then spooked. We waited another 30-45 minutes, would have waited longer but we were sure she was dead, or so we thought. I carried the gun while walking up because he is new to hunting and wouldnt be able to find a running deer in the scope in the event that for some reason it was still alive. We walked up, following the blood trail just for fun and we come around the bush and she gets up and starts running through the brush. I threw the gun up and took the only shot i had before she vanished in the thick brush. I hit her in the shoulder and she dropped. We walked up and there were 2 obvious holes. One in the shoulder and one very far back in the guts. There was no blood trail from where she got up to where i finished her. I dont think we would have ever found her, she had stopped bleeding by that point. HE WAS VERY HAPPY THAT I BACKED HIM UP. And we had some of the best backstraps i've ever eaten that night for dinner.
BACK EM UP BOYS
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/14/08 11:20 PM
I do not really know about how other states would handle it, here in Texas, as far as the GW is concerned unless he was there to witness the event, or there is something questionable between the stories of the involved parties, whoevers tag is on the animal is who killed it.
As for the Big Mean Evil Bad And Nasty Critters, the hunter is not going to be asked about whether he wants a back up or not.
The client is there on a One Time Deal probably, the guide/outfitter/PH is in it as a committment.
Not only does that person not want to see a trophy lost, but they also have the safety of the client(s), camp staff, themself, and local citizens that might run afoul of the beast to consider.
Plus there is their reputation, not only among the hunting public, but with the officials in the areas they are operating in.
Start letting stuff wander off hurt and asick and likely to cause a problem where the officials have to help sort things out and a guide/outfitter/PH could find themselves licenseless in that area.
All states handle such things differently. I do know that in Colorado during the Fall elk hunts, guides do not carry rifles, so it is soley up to the client to get the job done.
Posted By: NETxHunter
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/15/08 02:44 AM
I have never been on a guided hunt nor paid a trophy fee for any animal. I love to hunt and have hunted since I was about 7, but unless I come into alot of money, I will never pay over $500-600 a year for a lease(I only pay $125 a yr for 585 acres now...Sabine River bottom land). I'd much rather hunt my low fence free range East Tx lease and spend the money that I saved on my wife and son. I don't judge the people that do or have hunted these places, but its just not for me. I'd rather kill a nice mature deer on my lease or public land.
To answer your question. If I did, by chance, pay for one of these hunts and encountered the situation that I stated above, this is how I would feel: It may not may not be the way anyone else feels.
If it was day one of a five day hunt and there was no blood where I shot at the deer, and the blood trail started where the guide shot at the deer, then I would have a problem with me tagging the deer and wasting my money, just to have someone else kill my deer. Why would I accept the deer? I still have 4 days to hunt!!
However if it was the last day of my hunt and I hadn't killed anything yet, I can't say that I would turn the deer down or even question my shot. It would be hard for me to leave with nothing to show for. Money doesn't grow on trees in my backyard, if it does I haven't noticed it yet.
So yes.. depending on the circumstances I would turn down a B&C buck, to be able to know that I killed my Trophy buck myself and that I didn't pay for a guide to shoot him for me. jmho
Posted By: Mr. Clean
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/15/08 04:26 AM
Not unless the animal I am hunting can eat me...
consequently I do not hunt anything that can eat me
...case closed.
Posted By: Rwuensch
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/16/08 04:29 PM
Quote:
Depended on the animal...............Cape buffalo.........DEFINATELY........w
or elephant, lion, etc... Anything that might eat me if I don't knock it down, defanantly want some backup.
Posted By: TSU_Wildlife
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/16/08 09:20 PM
Well if I missed or wounded an animal and the guide shot it for me, he can use his tags.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/16/08 11:12 PM
Quote:
Well if I missed or wounded an animal and the guide shot it for me, he can use his tags.
Let me get this straight, just for the record. If you wound an animal and can not get a finishing shot off you would rather see it run off and die than have the guide finish it off.
Now is that what you are saying?????
Posted By: TSU_Wildlife
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/17/08 03:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Well if I missed or wounded an animal and the guide shot it for me, he can use his tags.
Let me get this straight, just for the record. If you wound an animal and can not get a finishing shot off you would rather see it run off and die than have the guide finish it off.
Now is that what you are saying?????
Too many variables that play into this. I'll make myself sound bad here, but yes. Because if I shoot it, I will find it.
I've put more than one shot in the animals I have taken once. And that was a deer that I gut shot with my bow. After 5 hours of tracking, we found it. Devastated me. Considered putting down the bow.
If my 1st shot is not a "Finishing shot" then it's my responsibility. I've shot 6 deer in 6 shots, 5 of which with bow, and have yet to miss. Knock on wood! I'm sure it will happen but I hope it never does.
All I'm saying is, I have as much or more confidence in myself than I do a guide. But, too many variables to effectively answer your question. If I was not able to put a second shot myself and KNEW that it was gut shot, of course I want the other person to help me out.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/17/08 04:32 PM
How many guided hunts have you ever been on?
I can understand everyones desire to kill and find their own game.
I can also understand that is not always possible.
The fortunate thing for wildlife is, on actual guided hunts in most places, the hunter is going to get every chance possible to kill their chosen animal.
They will even be given the opportunity to make the follow up shot if it is neccessary, but in most situations, the guide is going to make sure that animal does not get away and the client has no choice in that, because they fired the shot that wounded the animal and when that shot is fired they become responsible for that animal and their express purpose after firing that initial shot, is to see that the animal is brought to bag as quickly and cleanly as possible, regardless of who finishes the job.
While I am a firm believer in one shot kills, and do my best, and seldom need a second, I shot twice, twice this year...one, I was so close after the stalk and shot (about 30 yards) I didnt feel like watching him lay there twitch, and the other was the Aoudad, which I had hit from across the canyon...and it rolled down into a bush in the bottom...it's head was propped up to make it appear alive and erect, and I didn't want to chance it running off...heard too many stories about them being tough and all.
If I am guiding, I try and give the hunter every chance...unless their actions, abilities, and attitudes have dictated otherwise.
You'd be surprised...well, maybe not, but some of the great hunters we get, for every species, can't shoot for squat...or are great on the range and nervous in the field...
Posted By: TSU_Wildlife
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/17/08 05:02 PM
Crazyhorse, a whopping zero. I doubt I will ever either. We payed for one place to hunt this year...4,000 acre high fence and not managed well at all. Seriously doubt that I will do that again. It's just my taste...I don't want someone else sitting over me telling me what to do while hunting. Although, if I owned land and someone hunted that I didn't completely trust I'd be in the stand with them too.
That's the only place I've ever hunted big game and paid for it. Never paid for a lease either.
I also sent you a pm Crazyhorse
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 12:49 AM
Send me another one, the first one didn't come thru??
I apologize if it seems like I am picking on you, as part of your response on a previous post, I flat missed.
On this post you gave the answer as to why guides/outfitters/buddies need to be there to back a person up.
Until you have hunted a certain species of game or with a person, there are many variables that come into play.
A guide is not going to sitting over you telling you what to do, but he is going to be monitoring you and the animal, so that if neccessary he can advise as to whether to shoot or not.
Do you get excited and does your heart rate shoot up when you are drawing your bow or looking thru the scope of your rifle at a 3D target or a piece of paper, I seriously doubt it.
What about when your aiming at hair???
Vernon brought up a great point, some folks can set at a bench and shoot MOA all day long.
Yet you stick them out in the field and they start looking at perforating hair, they are lucky if they hit the animal.
Lord help them and the guide if that in the field shot is on that has to be taken off hand and NOW.
I know folks are not going to agree with this, but until someone proves me wrong I am going to continue to operate this way, but I tell my gun hunting clients, that if they are presented with a shot, whether they can get a rest or not, the very instant those sights or crosshairs settle on the spot where you want the bullet to go, "Make The Gun Go Boom", don't sit/stand there and think about it, because if they start thinking, they start shaking.
Take the shot, reload the gun and listen to what the guide/outfitter says about the shot.
Contrary to what some folks want to perpetuate on here, not all critters go flop at the BANG. Some critters just GO. When that happens time especially to those folks that like to shoot at the last possible legal instance of shooting time, time becomes a major enemy.
Especially since the coyote population and the feral hog population around most of the state is pretty healthy at this time.
Now for some folks that is no biggy, because all that want to do is recover the antlers. I hope that if I ever stoop that far down the ladder, someone will shoot me.
Again, TSU_Wildlife I apologize for picking on you.
Posted By: gonebirdy
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 01:18 AM
I agree w/chc, I have shot a whitetail that weighed 156# field dressed and dropped in his tracks, yet shot a 51# bore Javalina that ran 45 yards. Both wre shot with a 30.06 with 150 grain remington core lock's. It always helps to have someone watch shot placement.
Posted By: passthru
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 01:31 AM
I had a young man out (14) after his first buck and it happened. He had just shot a doe a while earlier and made a nervous barely killing shot at 60 yards. An 8 point shows up at 125 and I grunt it stopped and boom, he shoots. Another marginal shot and the animal is up on its front legs hooking it for the brush and I popped it with the 22-250 TC encore in the neck and put it down. I still feel guilty for backing him up on his first buck but am glad it didn't get across a fence where we couldn't go get him.
Posted By: passthru
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 01:37 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Well if I missed or wounded an animal and the guide shot it for me, he can use his tags.
Let me get this straight, just for the record. If you wound an animal and can not get a finishing shot off you would rather see it run off and die than have the guide finish it off.
Now is that what you are saying?????
I would say that it darn well better have been a really bad shot on my part and I wouldn't have been able to get off another shot or else I would feel cheated.
Posted By: gonebirdy
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 01:44 AM
Better than losing the trophy of YOU'RE lifetime. Everybody needs help sometime! Even if you think at the time it was not right for the help,IF you got the help someone thought good enough about you to give it to you.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 01:55 AM
Its just not the same, if I made a good shot, and he shot thinking I didn't I would be pissed. I shot a deer from the side of my house last year, and there was no thrill in it. Even if I see a buck of a lifetime from my house I will not shoot it. I will blow some hogs away though. I will probably never pay for a guided hunt, so it really will never affect me anyway.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 01:56 AM
Take your two posts, in one you did something to keep an animal from being lost.
In the second you say you would feel cheated.
While from time to time there are exceptions because of an itchy trigger finger or too much enthusiasm and not enough experience on the part of the guide, a guide is not gonna shoot unless he has to.
A guide is not there to kill the clients game, a guide is there to help the client make a kill on the animal of the clients choice.
Regardless of some of the rhetoric and brow beating that has gone on with this topic, most folks have agreed that they do not want a wounded animal to get away and be lost, if it can be prevented.
With guides/outfitters that is usually a S.O.P., I don't shoot, unless the client can't make the follow up or me or the client one is fixing to be attacked.
It is when it is buddies hunting together as in Pyledrivers first post that things get squirrely.
That is where as someone else mentioned, there needs to be a game plan among buddies hunting together and everyone needs to stick to that game plan.
Posted By: gonebirdy
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 02:01 AM
POINT. You had to start somewhere. BB gun maybe or if you were lucky .22. Who taught you to shoot it? Who was there to tell you how to shoot you're first deer? Where to aim? My granddad told me where to aim so many times on my first deer that I almost missed the deer even after a couple of years of coaching and shooting. I was 7 at the time I shot my first deer.Talk about pressure! It's not an EGO thing,but it is sometimes an ethical resposability!
Posted By: gonebirdy
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 02:03 AM
Bad wording! ALWAYS AN ETHICAL RESPOSABILITY!!!!!
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 02:33 AM
I started on my own, my Dad didn't hunt.
I have to disagree about the "Ego Thing" observation.
That is why women and kids can most times shoot circles around a man.
A MAN has something to prove to himself/whoever is watching the list goes on.
A woman or a kid don't care, in fact they figure they are going to miss and so does the Dad or Husband or Boyfriend.
I mean afterall, I Am A Man And I Have To Shoot Good.
Women and kids don't have to prove anything to anyone.
No one was there when I shot my first deer, I was 20 years old and I was out deer hunting my very first time and got lucky enough to walk up on a deer and make a 150 or 160 yard off-hand shot.
It was an 8 point that the tips of the beams and all the points are on my necklace.
In 1970 it was a good deer.
Today, folks that were not even born when I shot that buck, would ridicule it as being too small.
I have backed up, more than I have been backed.
Having someone make a finishing shot on a wounded animal, is sometimes a neccessary evil.
What it should come down to, is, was there a chance of the animal in question getting away and being lost?
If the answer is yes, then the follow up or backing or finishing shot was definitely neccessary.
Folks need to weigh out which would bother them more, having an animal finished off by another shooter, but the trophy being recovered and the animal put out of its misery, or the wounded animal being lost and maybe taking a day or two to finally die and the trophy lost completely.
Posted By: gonebirdy
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 02:35 AM
Helomech. A good guid should be able to tell about the shot placement.
I understand about not shooting at the house. I have a pair of Fox that visit my front yard every spring. I shoot a lot of predators but will not shoot these two because they are more like pets than varmints. They have started bringing their offspring around this past spring.
Posted By: gonebirdy
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 02:49 AM
ch. I should have said it SHOULD NOT be an Ego thing. But you are right, it is in most cases.
My son shot his first deer at 10. He watched him for just a little over 40 minutes. All he kept telling me was that he had a shot and I would not let him shoot because of low light or I thought the angle was wrong. When he shot I dropped my binocs because I thought he would not shoot. I lost the deer and asked him where it ran. He said it dropped in it's track's, and sure enough it did. 150 class 13 point.
I agree he never got buck fever. Kid's and femals will make a man look bad with a firearm most of the time.
Posted By: gonebirdy
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 02:55 AM
ch. from lurking for about 3 years I have read a lot of you're post's and agree with most all of them.
I am glad you have done so well hunting! But I will always cherish the day I shot my fist deer with my grandad.
Just a memory I will never forget, as I hope my son and daughter will never forget.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:16 AM
Quote:
Helomech. A good guid should be able to tell about the shot placement.
I understand about not shooting at the house. I have a pair of Fox that visit my front yard every spring. I shoot a lot of predators but will not shoot these two because they are more like pets than varmints. They have started bringing their offspring around this past spring.
I just don't have any urge to go on a guided hunt. To me if I didn't do it by myself, I just a soon not hunt. I like to do everything from planting, to tracking. Maybe one day I will make a bad shot, but I have killed many many deer and have passed on more because the shot wasn't perfect. I feel confident out to 500 yards if the winds aren't bad, and if anything isn't right the animal will walk away. I have also never hunted where a accurate follow up shot could be taken. Both my boys got there first deer this year, and there was no way I, or anyone else could have made a back up shot on either one. Thankfully all of there practice, and time spent shooting paid off.
JUst becuase someone paid for a hunt...doesn't mean they get to decide what, or when, to shoot. Many places the guide tells you what is ok to shoot and what is not ok to shoot. If you shoot and wound an animal, you sure don't get to decide whether or not to shoot again! If you can't understand and agree to that, I sure hope you discuss it with a guide before going out. I don't know about everyone, but most of the big time operations, if you shoot and draw blood, you're paying for the trophy...even if it runs off.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 01:29 PM
Around the world and across the U.S., more and more operations are going to that top arrangement.
Not to P.O. anyone, but also many places are beginning to stop giving discounts to bow hunters.
Yes, bow hunters have less success than gun hunters, but when an archer sticks an arrow into an animal, that animal will die just the same as a gun shot animal will.
The "Blood Drawn = Trophy Taken" has been in place in many countries for some time now.
Operators in the U.S. are just really beginning to embrace the idea, along with the concept of the guide being prepared to back the client up, due to simple economics and publicity.
Even the high fence operations, especially those over 1000 acres in size, do not want animals shot and lossd for management reasons, but also from the standpoint of reputation, you don't want to be operating a trophy hunting business on 2500 acres or so and have animals shot and lost, especially inside a high fence. JMO.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 02:35 PM
I completely agree, if someone draws blood than it is considered a kill. I am just not a fan of guided huts. To me it is not the same as a killing my own. I would rather take a small 8 point on public land than a monster on a high fence. No offense to people that like that, I am just not one of them. The only guided hunt that I would be interested in is a stalk hunt for elk. And I would want the guide because he is familiar with the area.
I am not a big fan of guided hunts...unless I am involved...
On the places we deer hunt, guided or semi-guided, if we leave a bunch of wounded deer, we might lose the landowner's trust and the land...can't afford that, sorry if it hurts the clients feelings, hope they are mature enough to understand.
I can totally see where people would not want their shot "backed up"...just hope you see why its done that way, especially in managed leasee-guided operations...
Posted By: TSU_Wildlife
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:07 PM
TXCorn, I know what you mean about being ridiculed. I will never, ever, be to the point that I am hunting for antler. It's the most sought after bone, and that's all it is!! People have lost the thrill of the hunt, and what it means to not hunt to kill, but to kill to have hunted. I took my first buck bigger than a spike this year, scored barely over 100. I showed a picture to a fellow hunter friend and he told me it was small compared to his 135 on his wall. He was a trophy to me though...and I will always have that memory.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:24 PM
Quote:
TXCorn,
????????? Did you mean Txcornhusker?????????
Posted By: Kiowa Scout
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:27 PM
Quote:
One thing I have noticed on the THF and have made mention of in the past, is the concept of breaking an animal down is not highly thought of or talked about by the membership.
A lot of guides world wide, prefer that a client, when unsure of their ability to make a clean one shot kill on an animal, to use that first shot to take the front legs out from under the animal by breaking the shoulders, preferably both of them.
An animal can drag a broken hind leg or both hind legs a long way.
It is nearly impossible for an animal to push its self real far if it can not use its front legs.
Even on white tails, if your preferred shot placement is questionable, for what ever reason, and the shoulders offer a clear shot, try to put your bullet where both shoulders will be broken.
Yes, there will be some meat loss, but the meat that is lossed will not be as much as losing the whole animal. JMO.
Crazyhorse,
I agree with you whole-heartedly.
We get hunters that come from all over the country. They have varying experience in hunting and shooting. The first day that I take a hunter out, I explain to them that I want the animal to drop in its tracks. I tell them to shoot in the shoulder and break the shoulders down. To this day, I have never had a deer make if over a few yards with broken shoulders. I have however had guys shoot a deer behind the shoulder, high (just under the back bone) and track it for several hundred yards. In the area that I guide, that is very time consuming. Each guide general has 2-3 pastures that are 4000+ acres each. The terrain is very rough and very dense brush. This to me takes away from the hunt. If you and the hunter have to trail/track an animal for several hours to find their trophy, the hunter is totally discouraged before you ever get to it. I wish that we were allowed to back up a hunter. I have on occassions done it at the request of the hunter, but as a rule we are not allowed to do that. I do carry a handgun all the time and if possible I will put a wounded animal down with it. A 9mm at 15 yards does not tear a cape up near as bad as most hunters' rifles.
Posted By: TSU_Wildlife
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
TXCorn,
????????? Did you mean Txcornhusker?????????
No I meant you. That's prolly where the PM went! 
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:39 PM
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:40 PM
I used to do some charter fishing, and have seen the people that come. So I have no doubt about what you say about people wounding deer. But the guide should know within a few minutes of talking to the client if this will or will not be the case. We can usually tell before they even got on our boat. We have actually had to cast the rod for many clients. And we were using spinning reels the easiest to cast. We had one client that had to use a certain bait, everyone else in his party used what we had and caught their limit, and his. He caught one fish all day.
Posted By: TSU_Wildlife
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 03:42 PM
Hmmm....both I guess! Going home to go eat some ham steak!! Mmmmm!! Who'd you work for when you did your wolf research? Maybe that was txcorn...I don't know how i got so confused
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 04:01 PM
I don't think TCH deserves the insult, JMO.
I worked with the Mexican Greys and the Red Wolves at the Fort Worth Zoo.
I worked as a keeper there for 24+ years, about 15 of that I worked with one or both species.
We did not do any research work, because of USF&W regs, not a lot of research was or is done on wolves.
Everything about them is well documented, except how to re-introduce them into the wild, without their intereacting with humans.
The reason dogs were developed was because wolves adapted really quickly to associating humans with a readily available source of food.
Not from depredation of humans, but due to human waste, both from the game they killed and the remnants left after skinning and cutting up the carcasses, but also the left over or waste food that was thrown out.
Wolves are highly adaptive animals, and unless they have millions of uninhabited land to roam over with NO human habitation or interference, they will not stay away from humans.
When I was on my Musk-Ox / Caribou hunt above the Arctic Circle back in 2000, I was not able to buy a wolf license since the outfitter had failed to make a note on the paperwork that I wanted a wolf license.
The last day in camp. The Inuits that made up the guide crew came tearing up to the camp reporting a wolf across the river.
Mind you, while the terrain up there is somewhat rolling, the tallest vegetation I saw was eaten down grass.
The wolf was within range across the river, but he came buy the camp able to see humans and smell us, even when we all ran out of the bunk house and was standing there talking and looking, he never sped up, never slowed down just kept trotting.
Had I have been able to buy the license, I would have been able to kill him from the camp.
As for insulting folks, That Just Ain't Right!
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 04:31 PM
Quote:
But the guide should know within a few minutes of talking to the client if this will or will not be the case.
That don't work with hunters.
A person can have lots of experience shooting targets from the bench, or killing animals from a blind watching a feeder.
Put them out on foot, taking a shot at an animal at an unknown range, and it is a different story.
I have had or seen people show up in camp, with a notebook full of all the targets they have shot over the last 6 months, and even have all the ballistics of the loads they are using on a card taped to the stock of their rifle.
Yet you run them up onto an animal at 100 yards or less and they get nervous.
Between the excitement and the adrenilin, they can make some pretty miraculous misses.
The one that always sets me off is to look around and see a client twisting the power setting on their scope.
One year on a break during clients on the javelina hunts, I took one of the guys that sometimes helps with the guiding, and had him on a nice sized javelina at less than 50 yards, and we chased that thing around for over 10 minutes, and everytime I would get the guy set up, he could not find the javelina in his scope.
The javelina finally gave us the slip and I went to asking the guy what was wrong, and it turned out, he had wanted to "Glass" something so he had his scope turned up on 12 power.
It is really hard to take a shot when all you can see is a small blur of black, and you can't tell where that blur is from on the critter.
With fishermen, I have noticed that the ones that know what they are doing, handle and carry their equipment differently than those that don't.
To me an experienced / compotent fisherman/woman, handles fishing equipment, even if it is not their own, with a comnfident, familiar attitude/method.
Folks that don't know, sort of just set and look at the rods and reels.
The quickest way to tell is to see how they hold a spinning outfit.
Reel down trying to figure out how to move the handle to the other side = experience, reel up and staring = trouble.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 04:45 PM
Quote:
Reel down trying to figure out how to move the handle to the other side = experience, reel up and staring = trouble.
I have seen this many many times.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 04:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
But the guide should know within a few minutes of talking to the client if this will or will not be the case.
That don't work with hunters.
A person can have lots of experience shooting targets from the bench, or killing animals from a blind watching a feeder.
Put them out on foot, taking a shot at an animal at an unknown range, and it is a different story.
I have had or seen people show up in camp, with a notebook full of all the targets they have shot over the last 6 months, and even have all the ballistics of the loads they are using on a card taped to the stock of their rifle.
Yet you run them up onto an animal at 100 yards or less and they get nervous.
Between the excitement and the adrenilin, they can make some pretty miraculous misses.
But still I think after spending some time stalking with someone I could make a pretty good judgement on their abilty to shoot under pressure. Most times I can tell just by talking to them. I am sure some would get by that can bluff good, but the majority I think I could fiqure out.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 05:01 PM
I don't know, I have been doing it on a fairly regular basis since 1992, and it still surprises me.
I think it comes from the fact that a person can be knowledgable as all get out and even a heck of a shot from a bench looking at paper.
When those sights start crossing hair, things change amazingly sometimes. JMO.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 05:07 PM
Quote:
I don't know, I have been doing it on a fairly regular basis since 1992, and it still surprises me.
I think it comes from the fact that a person can be knowledgable as all get out and even a heck of a shot from a bench looking at paper.
When those sights start crossing hair, things change amazingly sometimes. JMO.
They don't show some kind of sign of being overly nervous during the stalk? I know that you have more experience with this than I do, but most people I have dealt with show some signs before hand. I have never guided a hunt, but have hunted with lots of different people. At camp I can usually tell the ones that are full of 
before we ever leave for the hunt.
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know, I have been doing it on a fairly regular basis since 1992, and it still surprises me.
I think it comes from the fact that a person can be knowledgable as all get out and even a heck of a shot from a bench looking at paper.
When those sights start crossing hair, things change amazingly sometimes. JMO.
They don't show some kind of sign of being overly nervous during the stalk? I know that you have more experience with this than I do, but most people I have dealt with show some signs before hand. I have never guided a hunt, but have hunted with lots of different people. At camp I can usually tell the ones that are full of before we ever leave for the hunt.
I agree...but its the ones that are FULLLLL of BS that are easy to spot...the borderline ones can fool you sometimes.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 05:33 PM
Many times they don't, until those final few moments before the shot.
I agree that the ones that throw out a lot of
are easy to spot.
One of the things on the hunts I do, to figure out what kind of hunter they are, is to get them out shooting at rabbits before we go after the javelina.
Their reactions on shooting a jackrabbit gives me a fairly good idea how they are going to re-act on something larger.
Posted By: helomech
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 05:39 PM
I really could not do your jobs. I am not that good dealing with people, that is why I don't do any type of charter fishing. My brother still does it, but is trying to find another career. I used to bring people bow fishing for a while, and got tired of that quick. Two people standing on the front of a boat with bows and arrows can get pretty scarry sometims. Have had a few draw and follow a fish and when the fish went under the boat they kept going and ended up pointing in the boat. That is why I fix aircraft, don't have to deal with the public.
Posted By: Crazyhorse
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 06:24 PM
Things like that is why I started the topic, "Is It Worth It"?
When you get a good client(s) it is, but sometimes it would be nice to just walk off and leave them in a pasture and let them figure their own way out. JMO.
Posted By: passthru
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/18/08 06:41 PM
It is not a cut and dried situation, thus the fact I feel torn on the shot I took for the kid and it was a bad shot. That animal had the potential of leaving our property at that point. Did I know that @ that range? Given the fact he had made a high forward shot on a doe at half the distance a little while earlier and I watched the bullet impact through my nocs I felt I made the best decision not to lose the animal but still feel like I cheated the kid a little on the kill. I suppose he wouldn't have enjoyed losing the deer either.
And on that note, I have no problem if I do make a bad shot and it needs to happen if the guide/buddy does what is needed, just be sure it's needed.
Quote:
Many times they don't, until those final few moments before the shot.
I agree that the ones that throw out a lot of are easy to spot.
One of the things on the hunts I do, to figure out what kind of hunter they are, is to get them out shooting at rabbits before we go after the javelina.
Their reactions on shooting a jackrabbit gives me a fairly good idea how they are going to re-act on something larger.
Good point. I saw a outfit that sold doe and management hunts...but you had to take the doe first...maybe that's one of the reasons why...
Posted By: RICK O'SHAY
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/19/08 03:50 PM
I DON'T REALLY WANT OR NEED BACK UP EXCEPT ON CLOSE DANGEROUS GAME (BROWN BEAR AT 80 YDS OR LESS), BUT IF IT DON'T FALL DOWN WHEN I SHOOT YOU CAN SHOOT IF YOU WANT, JUST DON'T MESS UP NO MEAT!
Posted By: Rustler
Re: Back me up???Or Not???? - 01/20/08 02:47 AM
Quote:
Really curious, on this topic and have given it alot of thought. How many of you would want a guide or a hunting buddy to back you up on a shot. It can be any shot, whether bow, rifle ect. Is it ethical???? Or do you want to know YOU shot they animal and its yours to brag about ect????? I am kinda 2 sided on this with all the different siutations one could possibly be placed into. I am open to all and any ideas, so put em out there???
If we are hunting together and I make a poor shot, take the animal down.
One reason being, I’ll be upset confused and generally pissed off at myself for making a bad shot.
So for me it’s gonna take a second or so to clear my head work the action get back on target be confident in shot placement and pull the trigger.
If this delay in my second shot might cause the animal to be lost and suffer I would count on my hunting partner to recognize this situation and act if possible before I can.
Hogs are an exception
If I wound a hog I’m laughing too hard to shoot again anyway, be my guest blast away.