MEN'S Channel

Do any of y'all watch the outdoor shows on the Men's channel on dishnetworks?
My favorites are Across America the Outfitter with Colorado Buck and The Bset of The West with John Burns.
They make Jackie Bushman and Bill Jordan look like candya$$es. They really hunt. There are no high game fenced tame deer or pen raised "wild birds".
John Burns repeatedly shoots well over 600 yards. I watched him nail a coyote at 1084 yards. Two great shows.
Check out this link to his Bets of The Wests website The Best of The West

When do they come on?

This is Crazyhorse, but why would anybody, including an expert get on camera and start shooting at those ranges knowing full well that folks watching him are gonna try and do the same thing. I thought everybody had been talking about getting close and proper bullet placement. As for Colorado Buck, I have a video of him on a hunt in Africa, and you can clearly see a high fence on at least one hunt and some fairly bad shooting on at least one animal. Whether any one wants to believe it or not, I shot a doe pronghorn at over 500 yards, and one, it was pure dumb luck on my part and 2, bad luck on the antlopes part. I have never tried a shot like that again, and I feel that anyone that wants to get an idea of what 500 or 600 yards looks like, needs to get out of a vehicle and have some one drive the vehicle off that far and see if they would want to try and hit a car at that range. 1084 is right at 3/4 of a mile, what was he using , a 50 BMG. Anybody care to look up the drop on any sporting cartridge at that range and try to include wind drift. I am sorry, but the odds of someone hitting a deer let alone a coyote at that range, are beyond astronomical. How could anyone call themselves an ethical hunter and trying to promote hunting and showing stuff like that. Does anybody want to hazard a guess as to how many animals are going to run off and die because they didn't show any signs of being hit. The only way an animal is going to drop immediately at those ranges is with a 50 BMG slug thru the shoulders.

Crazyhorse,
Thats the best post you ever done.

Thank You I think. It was not meant to be a good post, it was meant to call attetion to the fact that we have enough problems keeping hunting alive and acceptable. Having someone on T.V., promoting shooting at those distances with any legal sporting firearm is as ludicrous as if someone jumped up and started conving people that they could make consistent killing shots on whitetails at 75 yards with a bow. You are an archer, would you attempt a 75 yard shot on anything with hair, with your bow. I know that things like these shows are neat or interesting, or I guess they are to some people, I just feel that the folks that are participating on this forum, have too much respect for the animals that they are hunting and the legacy that we are supposed to be leaving to those that follow us. With the possible exception of coues deer, non of us should ever consider a shot of much more than 300 yards, and those shots aren't going to occur all that often. Sorry folks this has me on a soap box.

CHC, I gotta agree with you on this one. Those kinds of shots are unethical at best! Live animals are way too unpredictable for folks to think they can consistantly and accurately place kill shots, at those distances. Nevermind the calculations for elevation, distance and windage.

I dont shoot my bow over 25 yards at any game. Most of my shots are 13 to 18 yard range. The hard part about bow hunting is getting close and fooling the animal. Thats hunting.

I have to agree with CHC. Respect for the game is the main point. We have all seen some celebrity hunter drop an animal at incredible distances, but how many times did they just wound the animal and then watched it suffer or worse yet, run off and never find it! I watched Brenda Valentine drop a bull elk at 412 yards across a valley with a .270. She missed on her first shot and dropped it on the next. At first I was impressed, but there is no way that I would try that shot unless I was certain I could harvest the animal cleanly. What made me feel uneasy about her harvest was that she MISSED the first shot and then got lucky on the next one. Ted Nugent always talks about how we owe it to our game to be the best that we can be. I don't think I can remember him not making a calculated, clean harvest. If you are going to try those long shots, you owe it to your game to make the harvest as cleanly as possible.

CHC that was a little out there. A shot of 6 or seven hundered yards is easily amde with a lot of todays rifles and as long as you know what your gun does at those ranges and practice shooting taht far then it is fine. I dont think that you should just pop off rounds but if you know enough to hit a target consistently at that distance you should not be afraid to shoot an animal at that distance.

I'm honestly not afraid to take a shot at 700 or 800 yards and know exactly where my shot's going to hit. I've shot this custom made 7mm for so many years that everyone jokes about how that gun has radar and is trained to not ever miss. I got a nice bull elk at 720 yards 4 years ago. I wasn't the least bit hesitant, unsure or afraid to take the shot. One thing though, when I do take those shots, I aim for the neck or head. If I miss, it's a clean miss. If I hit, it's a DRT! That bull never took a step! Spined him in the top of the neck. You know what, I've not missed with that gun at any range I've shot at in the past 20 or so years. Not bragging, just that I know that gun like the back of my hand.

Quigley, is that you????

I thought Brenda only bowhunted.?

She did both in this episode.

I THINK THE POINT HAG MAKES IS A GOOD ONE. KNOW YOUR GUN SHOOT IT OFTEN AND THEN SHOOT IT SOME MORE. AMMO IS REALITIVELY CHEAP AND THE GUN RANGES I KNOW ONLY CHARGE 12 OR 15 BUCKS TO SHOOT. GO OUT AND SHOOT 40 OR 50 ROUNDS A MONTH WITH YOUR FAVORITE GUN. YOU WILL BE SUPRIZED HOW MUCH MORE CONFIDENT YOU CAN BECOME THAN IF YOU JUST SIGHT IT IN JUST BEFORE HUNTING SEASON.

This is Crazyhorse, and the point I am making folks, and please pay attention here, if a person has hunted or worked with a gun that they are confident with, I have no problem with them taking shots at the man in the moon. Is it just me or hasn't anyone else noticed that there are a lot of folks out there that will see something like that or read some of these posts, and go out and try it with out putting in the range time. Have none of you evr walked into Wally World on a Thursday before opening day of deer season and seen people buying a gun to go hunting opening day and it will be their first time out. Now if nobody out there believes that there are people that don't do that type of stuff, then I apologise. The key words here, if you have the experience it is fine, but how many of those aspiring nimrods that are watching those films or reading the articles are going to take the time to learn how to do that type of shooting. As I said I killed a pronghorn with one shot at better than 600 yards. I watched a guy that is a lot better shot than me drop a nice bull elk at a randged 550 yards. Do any of you believe an in experienced hunter has any business tyring those type of shots, just because you can do them. We talk about ethics and making humane shots, and that is okay if a person is capable of it. Hown many of you that are so quick to defend long range shooting , has say, less than 10 years experience hunting or shooting.

That's so true CHC. I've been shooting scoped deer rifles for 42 years now. Before that, it was popping heads off of squirrels as the peaked around some East Texas tree.

I've carried that one gun for over 26 years now. I actually shot the rifling out of the original barrel and had to get a new barrel. It's custom made with added twist. So, I can make those shots with confidence.

I've taken clients out and forgotten that not everyone can make a shot like we describe. I had an important client of my Dad with me and had instructions to make sure he got an elk. Well, making a long story short..... There was a super bull standing out at about 450 yards and he started shooting at it with a solid rest and everything. I was watching where his bullets were hitting and he was all over the board. So, I timed his shot and fired the same instant he did while kneeling on the opposite side of the truck. He never knew I shot. I was afraid he was going to wound it for sure. He couldn't believe that he actually got that bull in the neck at that range. He was aiming for his shoulder That was 25 years ago and he still doesn't know that when I skinned it for him that I dug the lead out of his neck to reveal the 7mm Nosler slug instead of the .270

Yes, I too fear that some novice might think he can shoot across the canyon at 400 yards with any gun made and wound an animal.

Thanks Hag, that was my point all along. We have to remember that there are still a lot of lurkers and anonomys watchers out there. It is sometimes real hard for those that have been at it a while to remember that a whole lot of our supposed skill just comes from the fact that we have used our guns so much in our pursuit of our sport that they have become like a hammer or a pair of shoes, we are so used to them that when we pick them up they are part of us, and we know what to expect from them if we do our part. This goes all the way up to the point that we can pick up our favorite gun, aquire the sight picture, and make the shot without really thinking about it, it becomes automatic. It is like when new scopes or bows and arrows or new calibers or guns come out, we may try them and if they are something that will enhance our own built in abilities, we may buy it. We need to stop and think how many inexperienced hunters buy this same equipment, hoping it will compensate for the abilties they haven't had the time or wanted to take the time to develope. I apologise to anyone that I make mad with my postings, but at some point we have to remember that not all of us on here have had the multiples of 10, in years of hunting, shooting, or life experiences.

Well, I must say that CHC has a valid point. Look at how many people do things just because they saw it done on TV. I have no doubt that most of today's high-powered rifles can make some amazing shots, I doubt most peoples' ability to do so. I am not talking about those folks who have had their guns for many years and know their abilities.
The misconception is that it's all about the gun. The fact is....that it has more to do with the shooter's abilities. Like myself, I don't think that MOST people have the ability to make those shots in an ethical manner. There are way too many variables involved in hunting situations. In a controlled environment without having stability issues among other things, it could probably be done by just about anyone willing to be the trigger man. But, when hunting, those shots should not be attempted. Before anyone jumps to some conclusion, I am talking about the shots that are upwards of 1000 yds.

I agree with yall 100%, I to have been shooting all types of rifles & pistols for 40 years and I can safely say, I would not even today try a 400 yard shot. Somebody that would, needs to spend alot more time. then I, on a range, not one of these 100 yard ranges either, one of them 300 to 500 yard ranges. Sighting in you rifle at 100 yards to make a 400 yard shot is not near the same. If I ever get to go on one of them hunts of a life time, for big game. I would definely would need to find and spend alot of time at one of those ranges before I would feel comfortable on making a long shot.

I know way to many fellow RED NECKS that will unload their gun on any nice buck ( 6 point)at 400 yards much less a 12 point!!! LOL. Best thing we can do is be glad their not on our leases. No realy is to help teach people to be better sports man.
As a bowhunter after sitting in the tree all of OCT then come Nov1 I hear gun hunters shoot 5 time at one deer because they are shooting out of their range.It just kills me!!!They scare all the deer off. Thats how deer end up missing legs!!

being a "good" hunter means knowing your limits. Watching others make these long shots is awesome and they have every right to let the lead fly. As for me, I'm smart enough to know that these folks do this for a living. They hunt and shoot and are fairly good at both. I know that with my rifle I can make a 400 yard shot because I'm comfortable shooting at that range. I've seen my dad on serveral occasions shoot over 600 yards. That's because he's confident that he can make a good shot. Our job is to be smart enough to know our range and realize that the people who make these long shots probably have a lot more practice than we do. And yes the Men's Chanell is awesome. It stays on all the time at my house.

CHC you make some very valid and good points.
I agree that not every one of us nimrods needs to be out shooting animals at distances beyond our or our equipments capabilities.
I just brought up this thread because I think it is awesome the way John Burns has taken the time to build a rifle, get a custom job done on his scope, and load his own ammo all of which he researched and uses the best. He calls it a shooting system and points out that one of the biggest parts is the shooter. It would take alot of discipline and time on the range to be able to consistanly shoot at those ranges. I have watched them make very ethical kill shots on elk, deer and coyotes much farther than I would be comfortable shooting at. Everyone has got to know thier limitations.

Does anybody know where I can find a 500 yard gun range in North Texas to practice on?
Ron

samh I am with you on this. I enjoy watching him take those long shots. Does that mean I am (being a redneck and all) going to run out and take 270 off the shelf and try to take a Buck at a 1000 yards? NO. I don't watch nascar and run out on the highway and try to draft people either. I think that show is entertaining, and the ones that go out and try those shots would probably hunt without any regards to the ethics of a true hunter anyway. I think the one with the balloons at different ranges is awesome. What is the gun he shoots? Not trying to step on toes, just a Rednecks opinion.

This is Crazyhorse, and this post is for you and samh. My point is that while those of us with the experience watching those shows, know what we are capable of and have built up our ethics as to what we will attempt and what we won't. But guys there are people out there that are gonna try that stuff simply because they saw somebody do it on T.V., same with folks that try to drive on any of our major roads in the metro-mess, as if they were at the Texas Motor Speedway. As I said this is all my opinion, but no one will ever convince me that newcomers that don't have the experience, won't try shots that they shouldn't, simply because they saw somebody on a video do it. It is fun to watch shows like those, but not everyone has the ability to recognise that the people on those shows, are taking shots that they are comfortable in taking. How many of us have an area on the places we normally hunt where we can take a 350 yard or longer shot. As some one wrote in an earlier comment, how many 500 yard ranges are available for us to practice on. I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not, this is my opinion, and I feel that not making people that don't have the experience, aware that the only reason they should take a shot like that, is that, that is the only shot they have, but they need to be able to make a clean kill or a clean miss. At ranges like that, any thing that goes wrong means a lost animal. And I don't care who you are, if losing an animal cause a shot was taken, that maybe should have been worked on a little more or passed on, doesn't make you sick, then you ain't hunted enough. Folks there are a lot of people out there that have little or no hunting experience, that are watching the various shows and videos, and if they shoot at a deer and it don't drop in its tracks, they figure they missed, no matter the range. Not all of us are playing on the same field with the same abilities.

Easy,Easy. It does bother me to see or hear of a wounded animal getting away. Heck, I stop for squirrells to cross the street. I am just saying that those that would watch that and go and try it with out practise would probably do it anyway. Keep the show but add the disclaimer, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, THESE SHOT'S ARE DONE BY PROFESSIONALS. Probably wouldn't stop all of them but might make some go practise. The shot's are awesome and evidently he has put many many hours on the range practising. I enjoy watching his awesome calculated shots, especially the ones at balloons where he is calculating the windage and yardage.

It's funny how we now have to put disclaimers or warning labels on everything to keep the idiots from hurting themselves and then litigating the hell out of it. What ever happened to common sense???

I hear ya Bonehead! Warning labels, parent advisory labels, government mandated labels...where does it end? When does it once again become the people's responsibility? When will they stop acting like sheep and start accepting the consequences for their own actions?

It will probably end when you can't sue someone for millions of dollars cause YOU burnt YOURSELF with hot coffee that YOU bought from them. I'm so sick of the "Politically Correct" crap going on in todays world also. Sorry to vent! TGIF!!!!

You are right CHC.
There have been two shots I passed up both on nice bucks because I was not comfortable with the shot presented to me. I knew I could make both shots but just was not comfortable doing it. I know there are lots of people out there that would have squeezed the trigger any way and maybe hit the deer and maybe just wound it to where it would never be found.
On that show he stresses all the time to shoot only what you have practiced and comfortable with.
I saw the episode that redneck is refering to when he set up targets with balloons. He set them at unset distances (out to 1400 yards) and then used his range finder and then figured out then windage.
Someone asked about a 500 yard range. Yes I know of one.
It is between Gordon (where I live) and Stephenville on highway 108. It is at TacPro. They have ranges up to 1000 yards. You have to be a member to be able to shoot though. I am not sure what it costs. I have shot thier 100 yard range only once. I like to shoot at Pigion Road personally but thier longest range is only 100 yards. If you want more info on TacPro let me know I will give them a call and post my findings.
Back to long range shooting. A couple years after I started hunting I started daydreaming about being able to make a 300 yard+ shot. It finally happened for me 5 years ago. I killed a very nice buck at 335 yards. It was a very proud moment for me and probly the deer I am most proud of. When I shot him he just stood there. He humped up so I thought he was gut shot. So I put another round in him. That time he ran about 15 yards and fell dead right there. When I looked for the bullet holes they were less than two inches apart and both perfect heart lungers. There was no wind that day but it was a drizzleing rain. I relive that hunt everytime I see that mount on my wall. Was a great day for me.

I would also like to stress the importance of actually SHOOTING on a 200, 300, 400 yard range before you attempt a shot at those distances. Just because you sight your gun in at '1.5" over' at 100 and it groups well does not mean that at 200 or 300 or ... it will group the same. Ballistics tables do not always take into account the harmonics and twist rates of a barrel and are not always reliable. Yes, the physics of the drop values can be calculated but every gun shoots different loads differently.

I know of several rifles that shoot loads that will group 3" at 300 yards and are all over the paper at 100. I've seen just as many that were 1" at 100 and 6-8" (or more) at 300.

Just because your buddy has a .270 and he shoots Hornadys and groups 1" at 200 doesn't mean you will. Shoot your rifle at those ranges and find out what YOUR rifle with YOUR ammo and YOUR trigger finger will do.

Sandman brings up an important aspect to making successful longer shots...some bullets just don't stabilze completely until they are ???100-200??? yards out of the muzzle, and only shooting experience will tell you the whole story.

Just like most, if not all, non AO scopes for Centerfire rifles are factory set for correct paralax adjustments at either 100 or 150 yards, because those distances cover the large majority of all hunting situations and shots taken, and the the paralax problems don't begin showing with those 100/150 yard factory settings until shots over 300 yards on game - not target shots but game shots - become a problem with miss'es and poor bullet placement because of sight picture/crosshair ie paralax issues...standard grade hunting bullets are by and large made for those same distances, but some truly target quality, deep penetrating or heavy-for-caliber bullets do much better at slower speeds -read distance from muzzle like the outstanding accuracy the 300WinMg is noted for in 200 gr'ers at long ranges but less than 5/10% of 300Wmg shooters I know use a 200 gr bullet (I don't, but favor a 180 as a compromise and don't need the heavier bullet for what I shoot at and the under 300 yard shots I limit myself to) and this is a symptom of bullet stabilization issues.

A given brand of rifle may also contribute to the stabilization problem by the rate of barrel twist they build, you have to look at what the brand rifle/caliber vs the most intended use/caliber/bullet weight to understand where I'm going with this. But a quick illustration would be the Remington fiasco when they intro'd the 244 Remington with a 1/12 twist for bullets up to 90 grains and Winchester blew them out of the market with their 1/10 twist on the still successful 243. Remington lost the marketing war advantage of beating Winchester to market with a better ammunition design becasue they totally mis read the market and the 1/12 twists in the 244 will not stablize the 100 grain most-popular-for-caliber bullet weight that were available at that time. Remington was forced to rename the cartridge the 6mm and use 1/10 twist barrels but it never recovered the marketing edge Remington had lost. 100 gr ammo outsells 80 grain ammo 10 to 1 in a 243 because the average intended use is for deer sized animals and not the varmint sized critters Remington envisioned.

If you want to really explore the capabilities of long range shooting you will need to become adept at picking the fly poop out of the pepper by practicing at 500 yards or more. Real eyeopeners! about some popular brands of rifles, caliber/cartridges and bullets at those distances...and the fastest stuff ain't always the hands down best paper puncher.

Meanwhile the average Texas White Tail is harvested at about 75/85 yards ...year in and year out ...and has been as long as anybody can remember... and another reason the the old thutty thutty "Indian rifle" is still such a good usable cartridge even with its rainbow trajectory and slow 2400 fps muzzle velocity... and 150 yard max range for consistent one shot kills.
Ron