OK, You Upland Hunters....

This just posted on another thread and it ties right into something that happened yesterday:




I have a faux fox red (Rascal) that points. I used her for quail & dove last year, but to be honest am not really up on formal training for upland birds. I just happened to run across some quail and Rascal started pointing 'em out. So, I just had her point 'em, told her to steady, then when I could take a shot, had her flush 'em up and she did. Then I had her retrieve them (well, the ones I actually hit, anyway!)

Yesterday, she was in the laundry room pointing to the... WINDOW??? I looked out and one of our quail had gotten loose - it was sitting under the bush right outside the window. So, I took her out there, and said "Where's bird? Find bird." (I'm just winging it, which is why I'm posting) She sniffed around, then froze, pointed and started stalking really slowly toward a bush. Then the quail popped out on the side near me. She got excited (she was standing absolutely still, but every muscle in her body was quivering) so I'd say "whoaaaa" (OK, I have no idea, like I said, so I was just winging it - I tell our horses 'whoa' and the dogs too, when they get too excited.)

She'd move the bird slowly, making it hop along the ground, but not fly, then when he was out in the open, she'd freeze, hold a point, and I'd pretend like I was going to shoot it. Then I'd have her push the quail again saying "Eaaaasy.... Where's Birrrrd? Find Bird." (Poor dog - I know nothing about this.) She did this the entire way around two sides of my house, pushing this quail from one bush in the landscaping to the next. If I had a gun, I could have shot it any time. When we got to the last bush, I said "Flush it up!" She darted at the bush and when the quail took off, she ran about 20', stopped and just pointed to where it was flying in the air. Now I think I need to learn how to develop this, cuz the dog deserves it! Besides, hunting upland would be fun - I haven't done it much since about 25-30 years ago.

I was actually going to try to find that quail again and video tape her so I could ask the upland folks how to further develop this skill. I haven't taught her a thing - this is just her 'instinctive' reaction to finding a game bird (she ignores our chickens.) I use her for mostly waterfowl and she's great, but dang... I feel like I'm selling her short - not to mention missing out on a whole lotta fun.

I'm shopping videos right now, but tips on what to do & where to start, in addition to videos you'd recommend are welcome.

Both of my labs will point also. I', always like "get that crap out of here" lol just kidding. No clue where they get it from.

Well, I know where Rascal's comes from - pointing champs are in her pedigree, but that's not why I got her. You don't want your dogs to point? Seriously? I think it's kinda cool... something new and different to do and learn, too. Dang... I didn't see that quail 'til she moved it - I don't mind 'borrowing her nose' to find the birds.

This is written quickly, but I think it makes the point. The purpose of a pointing dog is to get out there and find the birds and hold them when found until I get to them. I want my dogs to cover as much ground and reach out to the objectives while I watch. In a typical 4 hr hunt, my pointing dogs will cover close to 20 miles while I only walked a couple. You can train a pointing dog to flush on command and I believe that's "routine" in Europe, but it takes a mature and disciplined dog.

You want the dog to find the bird and point without causing the bird to move - the dog has to learn how to handle the birds and they will learn with experience how close they can get without pushing the bird, so I'd suggest you don't encourage the dog to push the bird as you described above. Most dogs want the bird in his mouth, not to eat it (hopefully) but to claim the prize so to speak and earn your praise. You have to learn your dogs and see what each one desires - for example, I have one dog that lives to retrieve, she'll point so I can shoot it so she can fetch it; I have one dog that lives for the find and the point, he'll find the bird, point and hold until the shot, he'll go out and poke his nose on the bird, as if to tell me, Hey! here it is and he's off to find and point another bird, he prefers not to retrieve, so he has to be forced to retrieve.

I train using the "West" method, developed by Bill West and believe it or not, he started out training Pointing Labs - You can find some info on their methods at www.steadywithstyle.com

Basically, the point is the prey drive working. Watch a cat, or a coyote before they pounce - they point (stop moving) on scent or sight just before the pounce.

Keep training her to point, but don't encourage her to push the bird, she needs to learn that she doesn't get the bird if she causes the bird to move off. After you get the point and hold well taught and understood, then you can move on to the flush.

Have fun with it!

WOW! What an awesome post, Double B - you gave me the 'big picture' in about as succint a message possible, without missing some key points. Thanks for telling me to not train a bad habit into her. AND for the tips on the video. I really do want her to be like your first dog - flush then retrieve it. She loves to retrieve!

Can I ask.... when she points out the bird, she just remains still til I shoot it? What if it's in heavy cover? I don't want her to push it out? Sorry... I have a lot to learn.

DB20 is spot on with regards to not encouraging “crowding” … You can train a pointing dog to flush (and also to trail and re-engage a point on running birds) but as DB20 says, it takes a very disciplined and mature dog to know the difference. It’s basically two different behaviors, the point and hold where a dog should not move off of point once they locate or scent a bird, then the flush must be accomplished with a release command or a touch on the head or something like that. But it’s not that easy because the two actions are in conflict with each other and a dog isn’t capable of “thinking” about it. On one hand, he is being taught that if he moves or crowds, he loses the bird, then one the other hand, hes being encouraged to move in order to get the bird?? Most well trained pointing dogs will not break off point once they are locked in, the instinct to point and hold will be too great and engrained in them through training. Also, on wild birds, the birds will flush out of heavy cover without a dog jumping them, as long as you are walking them up.

I would get her good and steady on the point, you do all the flushing and shooting and she retrieves. Once you have a good strong platform, then you can try easing in a release command to flush and see how she works it from there. If she starts bumping birds, then drop the release command and be really really happy that you have a pointing lab!!

and as a side note, you will see most of the bigger guided dog handlers bringing a Lab with them that is trained to heel as they walk up on the covey that a pointing dog has nailed. the lab will be "released" and will jump in and flush the covey and then find and retrieve the birds that have been killed... they are the "money dogs" because you very seldom lose any birds with a good nosed Lab along!!

good luck with her.

Great info, FC - THANKS! I'm excited! I'll take your advice to the letter... I don't want to have to FIX bad habits I train into the dog due to lack of experience. For now, we'll solidify the point - she's got plenty of flush & retrieve in her. It's being steady that can stand more developing! I really appreciate all the info. Training for waterfowl is great fun, but I think I am going to enjoy this new adventure with my little buddy!

Yes, she points the bird and remains that way until I flush the birds, at least that's the goal...lol If it's heavy cover, I still want her to hold. I don't want her to have to decide if she should hold or flush and under the pressure of the chance she might catch the bird, I want them to always hold until I flush. If you're hunting wild birds, they are normally not going to stick around and wait very long...so I want her to scent the birds and point from as far away as possible - so they are still there when I eventually get there. The pointing dogs could be any where from 50 to several hundred yards out in front of me, so easy does it.

The fundamental reason for a pointing dog is to find birds and hold them, retreiving is an added bonus! The fundamental reason for a retreiver is to find the birds within gun range and flush them for the shot then retreive them, a pointing lab is a bonus.

Pointing dogs that stay within gun range are affectionaly called "boot polishers" and aren't the goal of the pointing dog. (Might as well have a lab ) An upland hunter that lets his dogs range out several hundred yards must really trust their dogs to do their job.

A flushing dog should always remain with shooting range and one that wanders off beyond that is a "run off".

It's not hard to imagine a lab that will point, but would you trust your pointing lab to be out front a couple hundred yards and hold the point until you get there. I think that's one key element that's missing in the pointing lab scenarios that separates a pointing dog from a pointing lab. I have my doubts that a lab has the stamina to run out front and cover 40 miles in a day and then do it again the next day. I may get flamed for that statement, but I have my flame suit on.

Good discussion!

I may get flamed, too... but I would agree on the stamina issue - though she does go... and go.... and go.... But then, I don't know the pointing breeds, so I'm basing that on comparison to... uh.... other Labs. That said, I don't hunt upland now, cuz there is not enough opportunity right nearby - so she's in little danger of being worked too hard! lol.

I also wonder on the steadiness issue - at least, it's hard to imagine her holding steady long enough for me to get there. But now I have a goal!

This IS a good post - y'all are full of great info!

Anyone for starting an APLA club in East Texas. I all ready have permission, 2 years old, to do so. Right now the closest place for field trials is Ok, or Colo ?

Got another good story. A guy in Jaoquin brought me his well bred 1 year old black Lab to train for ducks and dove. I had him running around after being here a couple of days and he went to the quail pen and locked up on a perfect tripod point. I called him and asked if he was from pointing bloodlines. Said he didn't know but if he wanted to do that, train him for it. I had had him for about 5 months and he got sick for no reason. They came and got him and had him at the vet in Shreveport for a couple of days and they brought him home. They decided to let him sleep in the house overnight and bring him back the next day. They have some pygmy gerbils in an aquarium on a stand. She said that as soon as he entered the living room he locked up on a beautiful tripod point. Without thinking she called his name and he broke point and launched into that aquarium, it flew back and shattered against the wall. His release command is his name, that sends him in to flush as well as retrieve. They came over often after that to get the keys for operating that dog. They are now into raising quail for that dog to hunt. He has no off switch and will kill himself before he leaves a bird in the field. Great dog. I never watched any videos on how to do it, my first Lab I guided with on the Gulf coast with wanted to point and we had quail on it so that I was the only one hunting quail on. Any help I can give you just ask but seems to me your pretty much on your way. You may want to check the rules at APLA web site. I am a member and have been for years but all of the pointing Labs seemed to be used on pheasants so they hold their field trials in that part of the country. I have permission from them to start a club but that has not been easy in this part of the country where most think a Lab should only retrieve and maybe flush.

I think all labs have the ability to point out in the field. Its just something that is repaticous. I have to labs, a chocolate male and silver female. When I first got my male I worked with him on pointing. My female learned everything from watching him out in the field. All I hunt is upland game, pheasant, quail, chucker everyonce in a while, and dove. I think it is a trait they have, just something that needs to be refined.
Here is Ellie last pheasant season

Her tail starts to curl when she is getting tired.

Well, if we did, I sure could learn a lot!

It certainly DOES make the point! Thanks for all the info. I checked out the website, read several of his articles and really like his training style. Thanks for the tip!

I've been hovering around this Gun Dog section for awhile since I'm wanting to get myself a hunting buddy, learned a ton through posts and pm's. Anyway, how do the pointing labs compare to the flushing labs that have been trained for waterfowl hunting? I want a dog to also be a good overall dog for dove, pheasant, etc., so in my mind it seems like the flushing, or maybe I should say locating, of upland birds would come naturally if the dog has already been taught how to keep a line, mark, and those types of things, that a well trained dog would just have a hunting instinct about it? Could quite possibly be my inexperience with the pointing variety, just thought I'd ask about how they compare.

At some point, you will need to evaluate what your individual hunting needs will require MOST from a dog, and then make a decision based on breed to meet those needs. If you lean more to the waterfowl/retrieving needs with an occasional upland hunt, then a retriever will be what you want and hope you can get one to do all that you ask. If you are truly going for the "total package" then you need to look towards one of the versatile breeds (GSP,Vizsla,DD,etc...), and if you lean towards upland only, then get a breed that is built to do it right and accept that you might have to pick up your own birds!

We seem to have started a small love fest with the pointing labs, but as DB20 mentioned earlier, don't get fooled into thinking that a pointing lab is going to be anywhere near as efficient in the field at finding and pointing upland birds as the upland breeds are. the dogs are just built on different frames, with different coats, and different physical attributes that aid or hinder what each of then is bred to do.

In the upland field, you are comparing a combine with a dirtbike (Lab vs. Pointing dog)

In the water, you are comparing a row boat with a ski nautique (pointing dog vs. lab)

the comparisons are extreme, and you will always have people say, well my dog does this and that, but bottom line. day in day out, hunting 30 to 35 days a season and especially when it gets to hunting several days in a row, the two types of dogs will begin to separate at a wide margin.

let the flaming begin!

This is just my thoughts on this subject. If you can teach a lab to be steady til sent in a duck blind, then you should be able to teach that same dog to stand until released.
The same should hold true with the pointers that retrieves. If he can hold a bird on point til you flush, then he should be able to sit until sent. Yes I do agree that retrievers mark better and pointers cover more ground. So it will be a trade off depending on what your hunting that day.

Wasn't there a post somewhere on the forum of some people that pheasant hunted with a pit. If I remember right they were laughed at that morning but wound up with more birds that day. Their philosophy was you can put whoa on any dog.

I totally agree with this, but with that being said...

I would imagine that I could cross Lake Lewisville with a paddle on a lawn chair tied to two 55 gal drums, but my chances for success would be so much better if I just went ahead and got the ski boat to begin with. Lot less time, effort, and frustration. That was my point.

man i hope i don't get in trouble for naming the lake...

Bolded some excellent points... I thought this was a great analogy! (So, I'm with ya!)

I love Labs and I'm a waterfowler, first and foremost - so that works. I used to hunt pheasant & grouse when I lived up north, but now I'm here in SE Texas and waterfowling is sort of a no-brainer. Never had a dog for upland hunts years ago. Friends' farms were loaded and we would walk thru the fields and flush 'em up ourselves. Then again, that was almost 30 years ago. Now, it would be more fun to have the dog do all that work - I'm just a bit older and slower. Also, no place around here that I'm likely to run into that many birds. (Y'all feel free to clue me in if you know of a place, however! lol)

Your point about getting the kind of dog for your primary purpose is well made. I will often hunt several days in a row and while I have the luxury of more than one dog to choose from, my favorites tend to go repeatedly - and they are eager and can handle the rigors, cuz they were built for the work involved (and I like to think, well bred, too! ) I own a 3500 dually cuz I have a ranch. I hate driving into the city with that thing, but I only do it on the rare occasion. I'm not about to trade it in for some tiny 'fuel efficient' contraption from Japan (no offense, Tundra owners) cuz I wouldn't be able to get my ranch work done at all.

I used to love hunting upland, but I know waterfowl will be my primary hunting (at least for now - and if that changes, I'd likely buy a well bred upland breed and get it, and myself, properly trained.) But, for me, for now, Labs are perfect - and I would like to use them for the occasional upland hunt. I think a smart dog can handle it. Fortunately, I've been blessed with some smart dogs, so now it's up to me to learn how to do my part, to do a good dog justice.

My Pointer and Brit are not just pointing dogs. They retrieve as well as any other breed. We took a lunch break Saturday at the dove lease. While we were sitting around, the Pointer brought me two dead birds she'd nosed-up that people had lost. Oh.....and she retrieves birds over water too.

My Brit was not just a pointing dog and retrieved too. She was also an excellent dog to have on dove hunts, but I think the point is that though some dogs can do multiple tasks, every breed has a particular one that it does best on average. Labs for retrieving waterfowl, Pointers for pointing upland game for example. A Lab can be trained to whoa on upland game and a Pointer can be trained to retrieve. But if you mostly hunt waterfowl, one would be best off with a Labrador, or if one mostly hunts upland birds, they would be best off with the Pointer because that is what each of those breeds where originally bred for. Take my Vizsla for example I hunt waterfowl less than 50% of my hunting time. She was easily trained to water retrieve and the breed does have some roots related to water retrieving but it was never the main purpose of the breed.
Even though my dog does the job, there are many breeds better designed for it that can do it better. If I mostly hunted waterfowl, A Vizsla would never be my first breed choice.

When you hunt like this it is nice to have dogs that can go from one to the other.

I was kidding. I have no problem with it. I think it's pretty cool. In fact, I tried to get a pic of Whipple pointing a grasshopper the other day.

Oh, I completely understand the premise and agree. However, folks should understand that these hunting dogs are very special animals, even within the realm of canines. They can, and will, do almost anything they are properly trained to do. Don't put your Lab or Pointer or Retriever in a "box" and assume they are so specialized that they cannot be very versatile, regardless of breed.

Oh, I completely understand the premise and agree. However, folks should understand that these hunting dogs are very special animals, even within the realm of canines. They can, and will, do almost anything they are properly trained to do. Don't put your Lab or Pointer or Retriever in a "box" and assume they are so specialized that they cannot be very versatile, regardless of breed. [/quote

I agree with this point also. Look at it this way. Labs, German Shepards, and many others are trained to find people drugs and all sorts of different things. They become seeing eye dogs. If the dog is willing, no matter what breed it is, it can be taught to do it. These are perfect examples of teaching a specific dog a job and it was never bred for it.

I must say we have had some great conversations here within the last week. Nice to see people share their opinions and ideas and nobody's feelings get hurt. Lets keep this up.

Your going to get like me. That's how I got the name Labrador Point Kennels.

Refreshing, isn't it? Shows it's very possible to disagree without being disagree-able!

We all love our dogs and the things we hunt. Hard not to get along with folks like that.

I know for someone like myself that's in the market for a dog it helps to see various opinions without someone getting snippy because not everybody agrees with the way they do things. It seems to make it a much more informative topic for everyone.

X2. It's nice when great ideas and equally great conversation isn't squelched by negativity. I believe that's what these forums are for. Thanks, y'all!