loading advise, i read all the sticky's

My buddy went out and spent $900 getting a lee auto and some equipment/supplies.
he started cranking out cartridges. I went ahead and pulled some mic's out and showed him where his measurements didnt line up, and he went through and re-set the bullet in between specs. (223...1750+/- cases with overall at 2250+/-(2240-2256) )
went to the range, (lots of eye and ear, a hand, jacket and a bag lol scared to death)he ran less than a mag, the gun jams, he ejects the case, i can see what appears to be blow back on the case, real black...he racks it again...click, nothing...he trys again..i walk over and notice the bolt isnt closing all the way and show him, he uses the forward assist(ar bushmaster) and pulls the trigger, click again, he ejects and tries to go again, but this time instead of hiding, i run over and throw the brakes on lol....he pulls out the shell, and its worse case scenario, the bullet has been pushed into the case almost all the way. i explain something is in the barrel/chamber, he should look vs assume..bump a bullet out the barrel, pretty much just past, or in the chamber...it did take a few real quick slides of a push rod to knock it out the chamber side.
he shoots a clip, all is well...he was all over the 18" painted area of the target.
my turn, i grouped well high and right with a red dot i never used b4( his gun, no way was i taking mine, told him it was out on loan)..



so, he goes again, jam, bullet stuck again. tap tap and its out again...
what would be causing this?

is it ok to repress a bullet down from 2274 to 2250ish, after you factory crimped it? as long as its getting crimped again?

should all the case lengths and total length be all the same?

ps, am i shooting his own gun better than him? it appeared my group was 1/2 the size of his...or does he win cause he hit the green most the time? remember, i have never shot this gun before this group.

In seating further an already crimped bullet you may have released some of the neck tension on some and that could allow a bullet to slam forward into the lands and sticking.

I'm not sure what is going on by the way you explained it. But you need to seek the help of someone that can look at the reloads and see what is really going on. Don't shoot anymore until you have someone look at reloads and make sure everything is correct. Sounds like coal is too long and bullet stuck to the lands, but not sure from your description. Be careful!!

I would start buying factory ammo again untill I read enough to figure it out.

stop until you can get someone to look over your shoulder on the reloading. It is things like this that can put you in the newspaper if crap goes worst possible scenario.

This EXACTLY.

it aint my stuff to quit. noone has ever experienced this? we have an idea what it could be, but want someone to mention it b4 i say lol
i checked every single bullet for overall length. all bullets were less than 2256.

Did the neck get any larger in diameter when the bullets were seated deeper in the case? Would not take much to loosen the grip on then. Usually about .002 neck tension Expand that out and you can loose the grip by the neck. Die adjustment could be off as well.

Those are just some of the things that ran through my mind on the OP scenario. Without seeing them and measuring them in things other than COAL it is impossible to determine the problem, other than there is a problem or two

other than what looked like blow back... burnt powder down 1/2 the outside of the case from the bullet end....the case was fine.
i was thinking he forgot powder?

That could be. For a real good explanation of what happens internal when a round is fired read the Internal Ballistics page on Hornady's site.

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/internal

It's too late now, but you should ****never**** begin reloading with a progressive press. Start over with a single stage press; once you're confident in your ammo quality, then **slowly** try reloading with the progressive.

Seriously. Step away from the progressive.

Your sizing die could be messed up/set wrong.

I've seen this happen over and over again with people loading for AR's.

You need to screw down until it touches the plate then another 1/2 turn.

Make sure you go all the way down when you resize. It should have a sharp angle on the shoulder.

If that is correct then it's your crimp that is belling out the shoulder and sticking the cases....

DO NOT CRIMP with the seating die. You want a snug fit and usually stiff neck tension is enough to hold the bullet in place. A good loader knows how to do this safely and feed his AR's with good neck tension crimps......

You are loading Semi-Auto ...not a push round bolt feed rifle. The bolt will slam the bullet into the feed ramps and push the bullet back into the case if your crimp is not right.


You need to use Lee Factory Crimp dies. Or get a set of dillon dies that push the brass into the cannelure at an angle like factory...

Never start on a progressive.....ya'll really need to get some help. If you get a bullet setback in an AR you will get a kaboom.

Google AR Kabooms....you guys are playing with fire....

+1 on what fatalwishes already stated...set your sizing die up correctly and either verify the sized case in your weapon

Just STOP. Like Fatalwishes says, you guys are playing with fire...and if you continue, you, him, or maybe both of you will get burned. If he can't take the time to read a loading manual until he understands then he has no business charging a case or seating a bullet---and it sounds to me he's not read a thing beyond the charge tables if that much.

Where in heaven's name are you shooting??

Get money back on pro press and purchase single stage.

dont think it was just a cartridge with no powder in it making the bullet stuck in the lands? just the primer going off? he remembers running out of primers, so i was thinking the powder fell out the bottom during rotation? he said he just punched some primers in there..never checking the powder load.
giving the group at 50 yards....looks like, other than a few strays, we are doing ok?

LOL

Read and study some of the manuals and find a mentor to help you out before you run into some serious problems.

Sounds like he's getting WAY ahead of himself to the point of being dangerous. Until he gets the hang of loading with a progressive press, EVERY round should be checked for the correct powder charge before the bullet is seated. Also, if I read correctly, he charged several cases with no primer and then primed the charged cases? If so, this guy needs to go buy a lottery ticket or at least some good life insurance. Reloading can be fun, but it needs to be taken very seriously, especially when you're just starting out. On a side note: Lee progressives are probably the pickiest presses out there when it comes to adjustments and timing-make damned sure that every station is properly adjusted and working correctly before cranking out ammo. Did he cycle his powder measure a few times to fill the cavity and did he actually weigh the powder charge so he knows how much he's putting in the case?

Here's my question..

So why is your budy who has a realoading setup coming to you and asking questions. And why do you know what to tell him to get and are "helping" him when you dont load, and obviously dont know how to?

Firs the link

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456506/lee-factory-crimp-die-223-remington

Second, I don't know what to think at this point.

It could have been a bad crimp and when the bolt slammed the cartridge forward, the loose bullet continued into the barrel.

Could be there was no powder....

The fact that you guys are having to tap rounds out that are sticking....something is amiss.

Lets go back to your original Post....



What you explain is what sounds like a Squibb load. I wasn't there, and your explanation is what I have to go on.

Let me explain why you are playing with fire in more detail.

Here is the thing about loading for ARs. They are not push feed bolt action guns. Most of what you read in the loading of .223's are for bolt action rifles. You use the same technique for "crimp" as you would use for any rifle round.

An AR is NOT a standard rifle. It's a violent process. It grabs the round and JAMS it into the feed ramp then literally forces it into the chamber under high speed spring pressure.

You can have a fairly loose crimp in a bolt action because you are slowing working the action and feeding the round into the chamber.

A semi auto...well again it's violent. These rifles are counterparts of those that cycle 700-950 rpm. And incorrect crimp is bad in an AR.

Really bad, because a too tight of a crimp will cause it to jam. You will stick a round in the chamber and not be able to get it to go all the way in and you'll have to stand on the charging handle to get it out. When a crimp is too tight, usually it crimps the bullet before the seating process is complete and you push the brass down belling out the shoulders....and that causes the round to stick into the chamber...jamming the rifle.

It's really bad because if it's too loose you get one of two conditions. One, the round gets violently thrown into the chamber and it stops and the bullet keeps going into the lands of the rifling leaving the brass behind, or two, the bullet gets pushed back into the case as it contacts the feeding ramps so when it does chamber, and you fire, the room the powder has to expand to is a fraction of what it needs and you will blow up your rifle. Not maybe, you will.

You said the round had the bullet pushed back. We can assume that happened when the Bolt Carrier pushed the cartridge into a blocked chamber. Lets say that it did. The fact that your round had the bullet pushed back means your crimp was incorrect. Under no circumstance should you be able to push a round back into the case on an autoloading rifle.

That is why you are playing with fire.

It takes a good loader years of experience to get neck tension on a .223 or .308 round and run them safely through an AR.

This is not something a Novice is going to be able to do. You have to have feel for it when you are seating/crimping. It takes years and thousands of rounds to get this correct by feel.

Personally, I factory crimp all of my AR rounds. It is a safe process of ensuring no matter what, you will never get a bullet that leaps forward or gets set back. The entire cartridge will bend and fold before that bullet gets moved forward or back.

That is what you want for an AR, as a new loader. A very safe cartridge. It's the safest way for you to continue this. You and your friend are just lucky. It was just dumb luck ya'll didn't blow up that gun. I'm not going to sugar coat this. Ya'll need to go play the lottery.

So since you are still here with all of your digits and a full pair of eyes and a functional gun, I would recommend you order that lee Factory crimp die.

Do not try to roll crimp with that lee die you have in that auto press. You will not be successful. It is a taper crimp anyhow and is made to use neck tension to hold the bullet in place for Bolt Action Rifle rounds. Ya'll are using a system not designed for what you are doing, and you don't have the experience to adapt that system over to what you are doing.

Most rifle bullet don't have the cannelure and you will destroy the accuracy of it by roll crimping. That is why you use neck tension. It is for making very accurate rounds. You want accuracy and a tight crimp. Again, it take a very experienced loader to get a neck tension taper crimp right for an auto loader.

Those that do have the cannelure (serrated ring around the bullet) are made to be roll crimped and tight so as not to move in an auto loading rifle. This is where you need to be. Cannelure bullets and roll crimps or lee factory crimp die crimps (Not really a roll crimp, it just pushes the very end of the brass into the cannelure without touching the rest of the neck of the case).

You either need a roll crimp/seating die or you neck crimp it then factory crimp the brass into the cannelure with the factory crimp die in a separate process.

The crimp is good when you cannot push the bullet back into the case by pushing the round into something hard.

Like the concrete floor....grab the case and push the bullet into the concrete as hard as you can... and try to push it back into the case.

The factory crimp die works by taking just the the last bit of brass and pushing it into the bullet. The idea is to have the brass about 1/2 way lined up between the top and bottom the cannelure.


If you do things right,sizing it correctly, then not putting too much of a neck crimp as to bell out the shoulders, then factory crimping them, you should be able to run mag after mag without issue...providing you have powder and primer...and make us all breathe a little easier in here.


I would like to ask what primers you are using and what powder and how much. This squibb load issue....is a whole 'nother issue and needs to be addressed in a serious way.


Also what grain bulllets, and make....because it looks like Ray Charles was on the trigger by looking at your targets.

In my experience, a .223 loaded without powder will not even drive the bullet out of the case neck.

That's here nor there, though...you guys need to step away from the press and get someone to mentor you.

does everyone agree with this?

Have no experience with a round without powder, but the man that wrote it I know is an experienced reloader and I trust his judgement. Very rarely do we differ in beliefs, then we discuss it or if something we can test we do.

Without going into all of the detail the other have, my only advice is to get a single stage loader...prime, and inspect your
cases..charge and inspect your cases and then seat your projectile....Progressive reloaders are not for the begginers..and sometimes not for the others either..Bushmaster AR
will usually shoot sub MOA w/factory loads..and should do less with hand loads..Slow down read and reflect and get some coaching
because you are playing with something that could injure or costs
you each a lot of money..Don

Based on first hand experience.

I know that in an uncharged .357 case the primer alone will drive the bullet into the forcing cone of a revolver. I had a batch of this defective ammo and gave it to someone to pull down and salvage the components but he wasnt listening or forgot the cartridges lacked a powder charge. He experienced a tied up revolver repeatedly when he attempted to fore it.

I have also pulled the trigger on an uncharged .223 round, and the bullet was not visibly dislodged in the case neck. At the time I thought it was a bad primer, but the next round did exactly the same thing.

Maybe others with first hand experience have seen other things happen in similar circumstances. But opinions are meaningless.

I'll verify this later.

I'll use a Small Rifle Magnum primer and a standard SRP with no powder and see if either moves the bullet.

I'll do non crimped and crimped......so I'll try 4 rounds...

VERIFIED

I loaded 2 magnum CCI 450 primers into 1 that I crimped, and one I didn't crimp. Just slight neck tension.


I then Loaded 2 non Magnum Primer Rounds....again 1 crimped and 1 non crimped.


Mic'd em then went out to the garage and fired all 4.

I thought I was having mis fires because there was NO Sound at all. Nothing. I expected something with the magnum primers.....there was nothing at all.

After checking...Sure enough I was getting clean firing pin strikes on all rounds....

The Bullets didn't even Move. Non of them ...not even enough that I could even measure with a Starret Micrometer.





That means.....the OP

A) Had a tad bit of powder in the case...

B) Crimp was so loose the bullet left the case during the loading process and lodged into the lands....


Either way............well ya'll know.


And RiverRider is 100% spot on.

was this in an ar style rifle in 223?

No, it was a full mil spec M4 rifle (Colt 6920), an AR style rifle, but with a 5.56 chamber, not .223.

It would not have made a difference if the chamber was 5.56 or .223.

Or a bolt action rifle. The Bullet did not move with the primer and I don't see it moving in any condition with a neck crimp or full factory crimp.

...and Fatalwishes is 100% spot on.

was thinking also, maybe when the primers ran out, then the powder was put in, most/some fell out the bottom of the case during rotation. he said he found a few w/o primers, and he punched some primers in there with out checking the powder load.....

or as mentioned, it could have been ripped out during the feeding process...how to fix this situation?

I'm sure you are not aware, there are some powders that exist, that if you do not use ENOUGH of it, it can cause a high pressure situation and you can blow up your gun from that as well??

Also, if there is not enough powder a round can get stuck at the end of the barrel, not just the chamber end where it jams your gun. If you fire behind it with a full charge....oh Jesus.

You are financially responsible for those you injure around you as well. A blocked barrel.....with a super low charge is so feasible....and easy. Ya'll created the perfect scenario to create that situation, It's a miracle it didn't happen.


I seriously cannot believe ya'll are here to post and not in the hospital.


Ya'll need to get an inertia bullet puller and start taking rounds apart and start over.

http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Magnum-Inertia-Bullet-Puller/dp/B0037N6IXA

Dillon makes one as well as RCBS and there are a few others.

Get it and use it.

NEVER complete a round unless you know exactly what powder and how much is in it. Powder leaking out the bottom through the flash hole is a time to start a pile of rounds to not fire and to take apart. Most re-loaders have a screw up bin...where you toss an "i'm not sure" round into to take apart later.

Leaking powder It is Not a time to finish and see if they go bang...ever


This is why myself and many others have said to NOT use an auto indexing press to start reloading with. There is too much going on and it's just a matter of time before you come back in here and we say "we told you so"

Never, ever, ever, chamber a round you do not have 100% confidence and knowledge of what is in it and how much. Those AR Kabooms I told you about...they are for real and they happen to real people. You are about 1 shot away from being a statistic. Please do not fire any more of those rounds you made. You fire a full charge into a blocked barrel I promise you, both of you will be injured. Anybody in the vicinity would be licking their chops for a law suit. DO NOT FIRE ANY MORE OF THOSE ROUNDS.

That's the first step in fixing things, the second is taking them apart with the inertia bullet puller.


I ask again, what powder and how much are you using? What grain bullet and make are you using?




I'd like to add, I'm glad you found your way in here, and if it feels like you are being yelled at....well you are.

What you guys did, is, on the 1-10 holy crap scale, about an 18.5.... That puts you high on the epic f#$kup scale.

We all screw up. That is why they make inertia bullet pullers and I highly doubt there is a person on this forum that has not had to use one at one time or another. I have two lol. When in doubt, I pull them out and demil the round. Better safe than sorry.

Nobody is perfect but you guys are so far into the danger territory, you seriously need to slam on the brakes and back way up.


If those rounds were in my house, I would not let them within 20 ft of any gun that could fire them and I would demil them immediately if not sooner. They are dangerous devices in my book and should be treated as such.

DO NOT try to salvage the bullet. The diameter will have changed from being neck crimped and they will need a better, tighter, crimp then they originally had, to hold them in place. Ya'll do not need to mess with those. Chalk them up as a loss. Keep the powder and brass and start over fresh.

I can't tell if we are being trolled here or not.. After repeated admonishments here the OP seems to ask questions like the previous post did not factor into his decision-making. His 2:01pm response today doesn't seem to indicate that he or his buddy is seeking out anyone locally to sort through the myriad of issues he presented initially. I sure hope this guy isn't legit because if what is being told here is happening it isn't going to end well.

My final post on this thread.

we blew em all off the same day...like 200 rounds. only 2 gave issues. we are using 24g of win 748 powder, noslar 50g bal tip.
the coal was 2240-2257 on all cartridges.
i am reading what you guys are saying, and taking it to heart. if you feel like you are too good to help, please dont. i have serious questions and am not trolling anyone along. it seems important to me to figure out exactly what happened, so it never happens again. My dad died on the 12th of jan, so i have no mentor left as far as reloading goes. im sorry for all the questions, and am sincere about my questions. i am not questioning anyone, but would like to see more than one person agree on things, vs 1 opinion.(what if buggs bunny was on here givin out advise.)
thanks again

PM inbound......I had to think about this for a day...

You need to take away your friends reloading press from him.

Like you would car keys from a drunk. Had your friend primed that round under the powder hopper and it went off.....you'd be front page news. Both of you. You'd also be in the Obituary section of all the local papers.

I like your powder choice though 24grns is too light for the bullets you chose. 25 grns should be minimum up to 26.

I don't like your bullet choice because you have no cannelure and you don't have the experience to make them safe for an AR platform but they are good bullets and when up to speed, very accurate.

Your COAL varies too much ...you won't get any accuracy with what you are doing...Those bullets in that rifle should be under 2 inches at 100 yards.

You need to sit down with somebody and learn how to make ammo correctly....You need to read....you need to learn.

pm read and answered. thanks again guys for all the help. many more questions coming.
I have decided not to shoot anymore reloads, unless i make them my self. it will be awhile, im a slow reader, and have to pick up some stuff to read.
gonna need to get some new equipment eventually, for myself.
as for my buddy, i tried explaining to him, but he knows it all already. "every thing is cool man, dont worry Marc, i got it"
someone mentioned i am not the guy to be giving him info....and i agree, i know j@cks#!t about loading....but i should at least inform him of the priming a loaded charge? remember, i cant talk him down, he knows it all. i dont want him to die.
what to do?

Good decision Pickup the books, Watch some utube video, find a mentor, ask question, drop by Cabellas for some classes, hang around and have fun. Bunch of video in the TIPs Thread.