short magnum fad

I dont own one.A bullet is a certain caliber. After that it is just a different case for the powder. I think if it wasnt something for the gun writters to play with , it wouldnt go anywhere.Bullet weight and speed is all about the same.Just my 2c.

I know that I was in the market for a .300 caliber gun at the same time the WSMs were comeing out, so I bought one. I have never owned anthing bigger than a .280 so I can't really compare them to any other .300 cartrigdes, but I can say that I love mine and plan on keeping it even if I have to buy a set of dies and start reloading. I hope that isn't the case but I will do what is necessary.

Only time will tell but dont be surprized if the short mags do a way with some of the long kick your a$$ in the dirt magnums.

It will never happen. JMO

Your proble right CHC that why I'm stocking up on brass. But I really beleive that some are here to stay.

I agree with that. One or two of them may hang on, but I believe most of them, along with the Super Short Mags and the Ultra mags are all on a downhill slide. I am not starting anything here, so don't anyone jump my a$$ about this, but nothing has realistically replaced the 30-06 yet, and I wouldn't have all of those a person could pile in my pick up. JMO, but there are some things that basically can't be improved on that much. Anything on this planet that either hasn't or can't be killed with a 30-06, is immortal. And if the 06' can't take it out, either of the big 30 caliber magnums, 300 Winchester or Weatherby, will.

CHC is right. they just keep on reinventing the wheel. the short fat isnt a new idea either it has been around for a while w/ the PPC and the BR's. ten years from now there will yet agian be someone that tries to develop a new round but the way i see it the wildcatting days are over everything has been done or tried.

The 300 win. short mag will probably be one of the survivors, but the others will be really hard to find factory ammo for in the long run. I agree with the statements about the 30-06. About 3 or 4 years ago, I ordered a .270. The dealer tried to convince me that the 270 shortmag was the way to go. I grinned and ordered a traditional .270. There are just too many rifles of this caliber out there and I new the ammo would still be plentiful. Even if the shortmag outperformed the .270, I knew that there could not be that big of an advantage and millions dead deer were proof that the regular .270 worked. After looking through several gunmakers web sites I am glad I didnt choose the short mag because I don't reload.

I really like my 7mm wsm... well see, I hope it does not get hard to find ammo for Or someone may have to teach me the art of the reloading bench...

Do you notice that the people that are posting negative remarks about the WSSM'S or WSM'S are the folks that don't own one or haven't shot one!!! Except for westtex and I forgive you!!

Everyone that owns one has wrote positive things about them! The people that have never shot one or don't own one have NO room to talk about them!! You don't see me bashing any gun I haven't shot or owned!!! Think about that!!!!

TCH
i hope it didnt seem like i was bashing them too bad as they are a good idea. i just didnt like the extra hassles that went into them countless hrs or modifying equipment to fit them and also the discouraging hrs spent on the shooting bench and at the reloading bench trying to develop loads for them. they also just didnt fit a niche in my mind of what i wanted out of them but i am very narrow minded when it comes to calibers.
on a side note those of you that reload go buy some win supreme ammo and pull the bullet, dump out the powder and then try to get it all back in.

My little brother bought a 300 wsm. I don't think he has shot it yet. I am hoping he gets to come deer hunting once this upcoming season, so I can see it and shoot it. I have heard both good and bad things about them. I thought about buying one, but I really don't see a need for it since I already own a 300 win mag. I guess it would be nice to have one just for the sake of having another gun in the safe.

I hope all the short mag calibers stick around and get some popularity, for the simple reason of having something else to talk about sittin around a campfire. If we all had a 30/06 and didn't shoot anything else it would be pretty boring.

I used to hunt with a bunch of guys in East Texas. All of em either had a 30/30 or a .270. I was the only one that had anything different. Made for some pretty interesting conversations. JMO.

I learned my lesson about 10 years ago. If Wal Mart dont carry the caliber or load, I won't shoot it. I had sighted my rifle in with winchester failsafes and thought I would buy another box on the way to the lease. (Opening Weekend)When I got to Stephenville, the only 308's left in the store were 180 grain - round nose - silvertips. Definitely not the same. Now I shoot either Winchester soft points or Rem Core-lokts. Those two brands/loads are gauranteed to be evrywhere you can go to hunt.

I don't shoot enough to justify handloading. If I had a setup, I would consider it.

My question to the owners of the "New" short mags is if it really shoots that much better than the original (.223 vs .223 WSSM, etc)? Does it offer extended range, more killing power, etc? Or was it just a new way to part us with our money? Not bashing, just asking.

I happen to be a firm believer in the "get one of each"
motto. Save your lunch money and buy it. I really don't
care what anyone shoots--if I think I want one--I'll save
up and buy it. Short Mag, 458, 222 or whatever.

i have experience with both, the 300wsm & the 25wssm. i sold the 300 wsm. i felt it did not have any advantange to what other rounds were already available. now onto the 25wssm - i love this gun. it for sure has lighter recoil than the .25-06. this gun has shot 2 different factory rounds at 1 moa or less. i hope that more factory rounds will be produced for this cartridge. i may have to break down & learn to reload like others have said. i personally feel that the .223, .243 & .25 wssm's are all worth owning without a doubt.

Winchester says it pushes the 150 grain in the WSM
to 3300. The 30-06 in the same bullet is 2925. I still
say it depends on how many toys a guy wants.

1. Remington never chambered any of the Winchester Shot Mags becuase they were trying to sell their own Remington Ultra Short Mag series...and these rifles and ammo are already being sold at substantial discounts, even though a few of them have merit performance wise.
No other gun mfg'er ever chambered any of the RSAUM calibers to my knowledge, and have only tentitvely chambered a few of the RUM calibers like the 300RUM and 338RUM.

2. The Rick Jamison lawsuit caused A. the parent company Herstal aka Browning/Winchester to close the old Winchester New Haven Connecticut plant that made M70's, M94's and M1300's back in March of this year. B. - Forced ammo and other firearms companies to pay a royalty to Mr Jamison, instead of Herstal....rightly or wrongly. And C. Caused some firearms mfg's to re think the short fat cartridge total selection, or to take a wait and see attitude about the survivability of most of the calibers.

3. Where Ruger was once a company that thrived on being a market leader in new calibers and innovative designs they appear to have lost that market share battle to Savage and the Howa / Wby Vanguard series - both of which still chamber the WSM's, now that Winchester is gone at this point in time. I expect the the Winchester M70's and M94's will be resurrected by another company. Other companies have also entered the market and are gaining market share every year like CZ in the mid price point which does not chamber even all the standard length magums like a 7RMg or a 300WinMg and 338Win Mg, Tikka at a little higher point and chmbers the majority of the WSM's and Kimber in the upper price point which chambers the majority of the WSM's.

Ruger has not responded well except for the limited appeal of the Ruger 204 - at all that I can see with any new caliber selections of any kind in the last 5 or more years -to the market driven direction towards the Ultra Light weight range now being dominated by the 6lb 3 oz Tikka's T3 series and under 6 lb Kimbers Montana series - OBTW for example a 308 Win Montana weighs 5lb 2 oz's, a 300WSM weighs 6lb 3 oz's, and when released later this year a 30'06 will weigh 6lbs 9ozs and a 300 WMg will weigh 6 lbs 13 ozs - and have ignored their own 6+lb 20" barreled adult sized Ultra Lite series 6 lb 3 oz 308 Short Actions and 6lb 6oz Long actions, like CHC's 257 Roberts, and concentrated on their 16 1/2" barreled, with its too short for an adult LOP, 6lb 1oz Compact series ear splitter instead looking for an entry in the womens and childrens market that is so small as to be almost non existent.
IMO Ruger has become a stagnant mature company much as Winchester was before the WSM's came about, after Browning chose to hype the IMO ill designed highly cosmetically enhanced and beautifully finished ABolts - case in point you never see an A Bolt as the platform for a custom gun unlike a Remington or better still a Winchester.

4. will the short fat calibers fad fadeaway...yes and no...when gunmakers like Kimber are selling all the 325, 300, 270 WSM's they can build ...no those calibers will continue as the performance difference delivered is sufficent, although overlapped by the old original's, to warrant continued sales IMO. The weakness in sales of the WSM/WSSM's is in the smaller calibers, and the 7WSM which offered no difference from the 7RMG, and I believe that yes those calibers will eventually dry up and disappear. Yes Ammo prices have helped speed up that decline and has the lack of bullet selection - so once again the ammo mfg'ers are to blame here IMO.
The Remington short fats are already in that decline...even though there are some good performers in the series. The gun companies themselves are partly to blame as they have not offered guns that took advantage of the size/weight/handy ness differential between the short fats and the old originals as Kimber has.

I do not own a short fat and have not shot one...but that doesn't mean I don't understand the features, advantages and benefits...it simply means that I have too much invested in my standard length 270 and 300WinMg's to sell them off to go chase something else. If I could afford to buy a Kimber Montana I'd buy a 300WSM in a heartbeat, and then a 270 WSM next. I am just before getting a Tikka T3 as a UL 6lb 3oz everyday allweather gun after looking at Rugers for the last three months with visits to every Ruger outlets in North Texas looking for a LA or deer sized caliber R77RL or RLFP Ultra Lite and never finding one except in 204, and will prolly order a 270 as I already have the appropriate powder, maybe 6-700 bullets all ready on hand and 400+ empty cases to load, or maybe a 308 as all I need is a fresh batch of brass to get started reloading with...and the stated goal when I started was a 6lb 20" barreled allweather deer/hog/maybe backup elk shooter....in something cheaper than a Kimber Montana...and it ain't out there that I can find. But if/when the opportunity comes for me to be able to buy an all steel, CRF, and 3 position safety - unlike a Tikka for all its value and accuracy - Kimbers my first choice and will be one or more of the WSM's.JMHO
Ron

remington did chamber the 270 wsm i know cause i had one

West Tex...I always stand to be corrected. I have to admit though I am really surprised as Remington has worked very hard to market their short fats, but never did catch up with Winchester's first out of the box lead....and to my knowledge no other gun maker chambered the Remmy short fats...and no other ammo maker made ammo for them either. When those things happen then you can be assured that whatever the caliber is will last for a while.


With what you are saying it looks like even Remington has waved the white flag and accepted that the WSM is here to stay when their own proprietary RSAUM's could not be sold LOL!
Ron

Just as an aside here, I was looking in a 2006 issue, not sure of the month, of Outdoor Life. They touched on the short mags in a sidebar item, and I found what they said interesting, I don't know how factual, but interesting. Whoever wrote the piece, said that published accuracy out of a short mag, couldn't be obtained consitently if the rifle was fired under field conditions. The writer went on to say that the factory tests were done with a cooling off period between shots, and only shooting 3 shots. The testing he was privvy too was 5 shots with no cooling time and the gun wouldn't hold at under two inches at 100 yards.

Randall, that article has been around for a while and created lots of stir when it first came out. If I remember right the writer also did not reveal that his test rifles were in 22" barrels and the ammo co's were using 26" barrels....as they always do. Heat or the lack of it can do funny things with gun powder and pressures being reached or over reached. All of us that reload know that an individual barrel can shoot faster or slower than the very next barrel of the same caliber off the same machines making them...and the spread in velocity from barrel to barrel can be as much as 200 maybe even 300 fps especially in higher velocity rounds. This also was an early test and I suspect theat there have sine been some alterations of the powder blend in some calibers. Just like the relaoding manuals say ...abc xyz powder at 59 grains in Remington brass and using a federal 215 -not a 210 but a 215 - primer with a Nosler 165 grain BT will give "approximately" this velocity. the only way to confirm anything with velocity is to use a chrongraph over and over and over on every round and then you may still have a "slow" barrel and never will get what some gunrag shill touts as the latest whizzbang lazer blaster will get ...or not.
Ron's Rule of Thumb on velocity - if my gun will shoot a given round well enough to satisfy me...then I'll figure out how far away I can hit something 'cause groups on paper don't get the skillet dirty...little bitty groups are nice confidence builders and good practice but thye only really serve to take away my excuse for not hitting what I shoot at but thats about all...IMO. Minute of Deer or Minute of Basketball makes no difference if it puts the critter on the ground.
Ron

Good Lord, We have reached a concensus on something. Call in the dogs and kids our end is near. What is done on paper, whether with a pen, typewriter, confuser, or a gun at a bench has nothing to do with dead meat hitting the ground.

My idea of a perfect round, is one dead critter, either where it was standing or however many yards away it ran before it realized it was dead.

I ain't never seen me no bench rests on BLM or Private ground 8000 foot up in the Rockies. I couldn't find any place to park my big Deriere when I walked up on that moose at 50 yards or so in the brush in Newfoundland. Paper ballistics and little clover leaf groups ain't never mattered to me or the critter I was perforating. I ain't never ran across a whitetail that I had to put 3 shots into. I think, and this is damn sure my personal opinion on this, that if more folks would spend time making sure that when they looked at the sights or thru the scope of their favorite gun, they could consistently put their first shot every time, just exactly where they wanted it and stop worrying about follow up shots. From my experience, follow up shots are measured in feet, not yards, if the first shot hits close to where it was supposed too. JMO

Me and you keep agreeing on stuff and folks around us are going to want to have us commited.

Remington chambers the 300 wsm also because I own one. That why I think some will live on.

The ballistics I've seen the wsm does exceed the standard mags with less powder and less recoil . And I've found ballistics to be very different from paper to here in the real world. You call 223 and 243 wsm and they are not they are wssm. The wssm are the ones that I think will die off but hope they dont.

i think that some will stay,223,270 sm wont...

Wouldn't the guy who can shoot on paper with the best
groups be the better shot in the field.(with the assumption
all other things are equal)

A person might think that, but I have seen it be the other way, too many times.

The only thing equal about shooting paper and shooting hair, is that a gun is being used. While there may actually be people out there that would get excited looking at a piece of paper, the average person doesn't.

Also under normal conditions, that piece of paper is at a measured distance, isn't really moving around too much, and didn't just pop up out of nowhere.

Just the physical changes in heart rate and respiration, even when setting in a stand over a feeder at a measured 100 yards, when a deer walks out, has a tremendous effect on a hunter. The bigger the deer, the more acute those chages become. A hunter walking/still hunting thru the woods, is already so keyed up at all the sounds and smells in the woods, that if a good deer or even a doe, busts cover at 50 yards or less and then stops and looks back at the hunter, even good bench rest shooters have trouble getting a killing shot off.

I had a 7mm wsm in a stainless a-bolt. I hated it and the round. I lost three deer b/c of poor bullets from winchester, i cant stand the silvertips, but thats another question. Anyway, I love brownings, have and had several, but that barrel would walk 4" at 50 yds after the second shot. On top of that the deer I lost were due to the bullet not opening up. And it kicked like a mule in that 6 1/2 lb gun. My 25-06 and my 270 are better rounds than that ever dreamed of being. Now for the 300 wsm, I think it will stay, as will the 270 wsm. BUt I do believe the rest of them are going out fast.

Someone referenced the wssm's and even though I havent shot them, talk to most varmint and predator hunters, and they will tell you they stink in terms of accuracy. Plus, a 223 wssm is no improvement on a 220 swift, so I dont see much point in it. Just my .02 cents!

I was just thinking about the military? Where you are
hand picked from marksman who shoot on paper. Then you go
out in the bush and take a chance on getting your own butt
shot. These guys like "white feather" the sniper in Viet
Nam-regarded as the best-all were hand selected from their
scores. He actually won the world championship. With the
assumption that they are equal hunters-wouldn't the paper
guy be better?

If you really want to become a proficient game shot...go buy a full sized adult air rifle and put a scope on it. Go find an area that you can scatter some "targets" and shoot at without be restricted to a bench or blind...and then just see how well you can shoot at smaller and smaller stuff until you can hit ASPIRINS from 30-40-50 feet simply by shouldering and sighting from a port arms or carry arms position and taking a snap shot. When you are comfortable at that level...hitting 7-8+ out of 10 shots, then do the same thing with a 22 and strow "targets" again and start over at about 20-25 yards until you get to about 75 yards or more depending on how accurate your rimfire is. OBTW CZ's standard 22's will shoot 1 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards off the bench...dunno how far past that I could hold one though.
I learned to shoot moving targets by shooting at leaves floating down a creek with a 22 from a 30-100 foot high bank...and paying a nickel a shot for a miss to my partner from as much as 100 yards away. Taught me lead, taught me breath and trigger control...then we switched to Center fires and in those days I shot a 243 and that taught me the necessity of reloading...and we switched to baited river rats at "unknown" distances out to about 250 yards which taught range estimation. Today that location is a golf driving range off Belt Line and Luna in west Carrollton and the "creek bank" is the Elm Fork arm of the Trinity River...but it was miles in the country in 1969 and '70.
That expereince will teach you to shoot better off the bench, better out of a stand and the only way you will ever learn to shoot standing up on your hind legs and offhand ie unsupported. My cousin in Midland did the same thing riding with his dad when Uncle Frank was an oil scout for Atlantic Refining aka ARCO in the Sprayberry District shooting at dragon flys and everything else first with a BB gun and then a 22 at age 8 or 9. When I would visit in the summer the highlight of my trips were when Uncle Frank would drop us off at the front gate of a Lease and we could burn boucoup 22 shorts in a mile or so shooting at jack rabbits, lizards, snakes and whatever else appeared. Cousin Richard is probably still a better game shot than I am over 50 years later...and fast as greased lightning getting a shot off.
Ron

How do you know the bullets didn't open up if you didn't find the deer. Silver tip bullets are made for deep penatration not rapid expandsion. I seen it before people made bad shots and blame it on the gun, bullets, scope when it was really there own fault. I can not see how a 7mm wsm will not kill a deer and my 22-250 will.

Yes, but not everyone was in the military, and even if they were, they may not have ever been in battlefield conditions.

I ain't trying to get anyone to agree with me on this, I am just relating what I have actually experienced in actual hunting conditions. I have been around folks that I know, could put 3 shots from any gun they had under a dime at 100 yards off the bench.

What I am getting at, is last time I looked there aren't any benches, and you don't always have time to find a place to get a rest from. It is like the times that I have seen people that could break 98 targets out of a hundred shooting skeet, and yet feel they had done good getting one bird for every 2 or 3 shots when hunting dove.

I knew it would get some questions! I shot all three in the shoulder. I have been hunting deer for about 18 years, killing 2-3 each year. I never lost a deer from a shoulder shot until i got that gun. I know they didnt open up, b/c I shot one at about 230 yds a few years ago, knocked him down, when i got to him he jumped up, and i shot him on the run in the front shoulder at about 40 yds, it knocked him down but i still had to cut his throat. Exit and entrance wound was the same size on the second shot. I know a lot of folks that have problems on whitetails with this bullet, and many that love it. I just know I will never use them again. BTW, i had used that round in my 308 with no problems, it worked well, but after losing three good bucks, my 270 will stick with hornady.

And I know a 22-250 will kill a deer, but its odd i have better stopping ability with my 25-06 than i did with that 7mm wsm

I've seen it to people that were great bench shooters and could hit a barn without a bench and sand bags. I think alot a folks may only practice from a bench and never in field conditions. I shoot my rifles from the bench while I'm sighting it in or working up reloads but after that I'm shooting from hunting position.

And wild boar, how can you say those bullets are made for deep penetration. They are CXP2. On the box it says, rapid controlled expansion, ideal for light thin skinned game. It performs nothing like a deep penetrating bullet such as a barnes tsx or accubond.

I havent shot any of the cxp2 and dont know anything about them, because I hate winchester ammo(except AA shotgun shells). But the old silver tips were made for deep penetration. There cant be very much difference inbetween 300 wsm and 7mm wsm and every thing I've shot with the 300wsm so far has drop in its tracks.

and thats why i think the 300 wsm is here to stay, and the 7 and others are not.

I don't know how to do all the cutting and pasting, but nearly all I ever take is shoulder shots, and I ain't lost but one animal, a whitetail, and I was shooting a 22 Hornet at the time.

Granted I have had animals run up to a hundred yards or so. I seem to always get part of the lungs, and I use nothing but Barnes X and Triple-Shoks, and the 300 Weatherby and 300 Win.Mag. are about the smallest calibers I use.

Everyone has had different experiences on this issue, but I feel that there are other factors at work here on the man losing three deer shot that way.

I will add this however, the outfitter I hunt with in Colorado, and he has been guiding for over 30 years, has told me several times, that he has seen more elk shot and lost with a 7mm Rem.Mag. than any other round.

This is all just my opinion, but I will take shoulder shots on anything any day, over just about any other shot.

I appreciate the last post, I was beginning to think I was doing something wrong because I also take shoulder shots over anyother.

It all depends on ...where I am hunting and if I need to anchor the critter RIGHT THERE, distance involved and time to set up the shot, and of course the critter it self.

When I hunt Lottery hunts, where the shots typically are at or under a 100 yards hunting out of fixed blinds..I always take shoulder shots unless I can take a comfortable and high success rate head shot because I cannot let the critter leave my tiny hunt area. If I am snap shooting on public land especailly where the brush is heavy I will take shoulder shots...by then I shoot heavy for caliber bullets -like HwyMan's 300 Weatherby is a heavy for under 200 yards on White Tail caliber IMO. I also like neck shots and have made lots of them if the opportunity presents it self - base of the neck or just under the head if the critter is settled and not spooked. If I am taking shoulder shots I will try and line up the shot so it it will also take out the heart or other shoulder. You break down the critters wheels and it ain't goin no where. I find that lung shots taken too far back are my worst hits for having to track down a critter. I really like a raking shot just behind the last rib and under the back strap from behind, where I can get all of the internal organs involved and the exit hole inside the off shoulder saves me the most meat other than a behind the eye/in front of the ear DRT Hammer of Thor.
Ron

I agree i shoot a doe every chance i get in the neck or head, but that doesnt always present istelf. On bucks i shoot for the shoulder or the lungs, it has always worked. My point on the 7 mm wsm was that at the time i had the gun, the best round for it was the ballistic silvertip. I had used it before in my 308 and it worked great. However when i used it in my 7mm wsm, of the 4 bucks i had shot at 3 were lost and the other took two rounds and a slit throat to kill it ( one in the lungs and one in the front shoulder- base of the neck area). All were good shots that had worked for me in the past and continue to work till this day. The only thing that changed was the caliber that i used and the bullet, except for my 308. That is why i think its a poor round. Many other people have had different experiences and thats fine, i am just putting my .02 cents into the discussion. We can argue all day long about shot placement but that has nothing to do with my point. bullet performance and the short mags are the issue.

If the same type of bullets expanded in your 308 maybe it had something to do with the 7mm wsm bullet traveling faster or maybe a box of defective ammo. A few years ago I had a problem with some v-max bullets on some coyotes. In the past anything that was past 100yds my bullet wouldn't exist. All of a sudden I was having my bullets exiting out at 200 yds with very little damage and it was taking several shots to bring them down for good. And I'm not talking about just a couple of times it was 15 or 20 times. I was about to pull my hair out. I went and bought a new box of bullets and reloaded some more and these worked great. I sent the open box back to hornady with about 50 bullets in it and they sent me a new box they didn't tell me what was wrong but I think the jacket was to thick. If I hadn't shot that gun and bullets for so long I proble would have sold them and never owned one again.

Yeah that could have very well been the case, unfortunately the last deer I shot and missed was a mature 130 class 9 pt that i rattled in. (good deer for san saba county) That was the last straw. I went to winchester gallery in fort worth, they traded me straight up for a weatherby 25-06, and i love that gun even though brownings are my choice rifle.

My 7mm WSM is staying w/ me, it droped that hog this weekend like 3rd period french

I think the honeymoon is over. sales are down and back to the traditional cartridges. 300WSM will stick, maybe 223, but most of the others will become harder to find and higher. My opinion is that price is the culprit, performance is not an issue. They work great, but are the worth the difference is the issue.

We own several guns, but the ones we shoot all the time are 308's and 223's and 9mm's. Cost of ammo makes a huge difference.