Forget the RPR, I've found what I'll be getting

Talk with my buddy yesterday that is a firearms manufacturer. He tells me what they got in the works for a rifle to blow the RPR out of the water.
Bolt action, lightweight chassis
Will use any AR drop in trigger, any AR mags, any AR fore end, any AR grip, has collapsible stock (but can be ordered with buffer tube style set up for fixed/adjustable AR stocks, all bbls will be threaded and removable just like AR's
Calibers I can remember
308 win- 20" & 24" bbl
6.5 creed- 24"
204- 24"
223- can't recall length
6.5 Grendel- 20"
and I think he said any variants of the 308 family

6 rifles are in testing now, should be in full production in 90 days.
Price point is hoping to be around $999

I will have the first production 20" 308 in the south.

If you want more details, just ask. Only thing I won't say publicly is his business name until the rifle is in full production. But, they do have several contracts with agencies and shops, just had 3 AR rifles undergo 20,000 round testing in one week for a Govt agency without a hiccup.

Lots of good ideas in one rifle. Competition is good for consumers.

Is the top of the action a pic rail milled into the action?

Will it also accept A.I. and A.W. mags?

Hell yes, so a bolt action ar basically?

In a way. Similar to the Ruger precision rifle, but aftermarket friendly.
It will be a precision rifle, using top notch bbls. testing has been producing 1/4"moa groups

I believe he said it will have a pic rail, I can call and verify with him.
He said it will accept any type AR style mags (AR15 on the smaller calibers and AR10 on the 308 variants)

Doesn't Barrett offer a rifle similar to the RPR? Does anyone have one?

I'll have the Luth AR MBA-3 stock and Seekins NOX 15" handguard on my 20" 308 rifle

they do, but its over $5800

As far as the one I'm referring to, I'll have the first production 20" 308. Already claimed it!!

Sounds very appealing. But Savage has a nice competitor to the RPR as well, Stealth model 10. Every Savage I've owned has been an awesome shooter with little to no mods needed. And as for the Luth AR MBA 3 have you tried one? They look cool, but IMO they feel cheap much like the RPR stocks. I have one on an SBR and have owned an RPR but didn't care for it. If you like Savage take a look at the Stealth.

Stealth is nice, but the options to swap parts on these rifles are awesome.
Plus it has a match grade barrel from one of the top manufacturers.

Have not messed with the Myth stocks, just don't want a PRS

There are some really good ideas going into this rifle. Will be easy to work on with a AR armorers tool. Will $1000 be the street price or is that msrp? Also will they be able to produce enough to keep the street price down or will they have huge mark ups like the RPR did.

I'm very interested given the parts interchangeability factor with AR pieces. Especially if it's sub $1k. It can easily be very popular as it somewhat joins the bolt action and AR worlds together. I was just giving the option of the Stealth because many people haven't heard of it yet.
I'm anxious to see what comes of this new rifle and would be very interested in one for myself.

$999 is the plan for selling price.
He hopes to produce enough and keep the cost at that

The concept is great. The issue with feeding out of an AR-10 mag is a short mag length to shoot the heavy, long high BC bullets. Plus, you will have to sort out any feeding problems from the vast differences from mag to mag.

What action is he building it on? Feeding from an AR mag is a double stack/staggered feeding design, and I don't think your Rem 700 style will feed a double stack mag.

Don't think they are using 700 actions.
I believe they are machining all the receiver parts

Use a magpul SR25 mag and be done

S-can the AR trigger otherwise it sounds great.

I'll sit back and watch this one. So far just talk......we'll see.....small company producing enough rifles...not....

sorry,,,, pessimist on things that sound good but cant be produced in "mass"

Hopefully I'm proven wrong....hell, may even buy one

He has the capabilities to produce quite a few rifles. Has some Govt Agency contracts, several shop contracts ( I know one contract takes 120 rifles a month).
Not just talk, 6 rifles are being tested as we speak. Shooting 1/4moa groups out to 400yds.
Once all the legalities are done, production starts.
I'll let ya shoot mine when it arrives.
I may end up being his TX distributor

Keep me in mind, I'm IN !!!!

What caliber? I'll have one reserved

Interesting concept. Application will be key, barrel quality will be important


I think a shorter barrel would be cool. I think an 16-18 in 7mm-08 would be a great all around gun for texas

Is be interested in a 204. I already have a RPR 6.5 Creedmoor. Mor interested if I'd could bet the first 204.

Barrels are made from a top notch well known bbl maker. No skimping on them!!!
I do think he said a 7-08 was in the mix.

I'll see what I can do.

Would be very interested in a 7mm-08 or maybe a Creedmoor

I'd be interested in a 6.5 Creedmoore.

I don't know if I'd say forget the RPR, it has some things going for it you bud's rifle does not. AR triggers have never been as nice as bolt action triggers in my opinion, and the good AR triggers cost more than a good bolt action trigger. Limiting Mag length to AR mags means the barrel had better be chambered with little to no free-bore, so that shooters can tune bullet relationship to the lands wherever woks best for their load. Ruger designed an ingenious magazine well, having a rear locking mechanism for A.I. and A.W. mags while simultaneously being able to accept AR mags with their side locking recesses. I'm not putting down your friend's rifle, but I don't think Ruger deserves to be put down either. They plowed new ground with the R.P.R. giving shooters the ability to have all the bells and whistles of a P.R.S. style rifle at a more affordable cost instead of building one piece by piece.

Your friend decided to compete with Ruger's idea, and that is what capitalism is all about, good for him. I look forward to seeing one of his rifles in action just as I looked forward to seeing a R.P.R. in action. I've spent two separate days with two separate R.P.R.s and both times they performed without one single hiccup, hitting very small targets, very far away, and doing it as quickly as the shooters could make it happen.

AI mags will work in his bolt guns

Not if AR mags work.

I just texted him and he said AI mags work in all his bolt guns.
They both work in the RPR as stated above

An AI mag is different than various AR mags, and they both can not work at the same time. It's one or the other. Why don't you post up a web site or something or more info. I'd love to see some 1/4 moa groups from a rifle pieced together like this. In fact, I'd be the first to back this company if 1/4 moa groups were the norm for a $999 rifle with this set up. Do you really know how difficult it is for 1/4 moa groups? If you tell me 1/4 moa groups, you better have ample proof.

There are many rifle companies that claim 1/2 moa guarantee with a rifle that costs 3x-5x more, and they have trouble getting 1/2 moa accuracy. So a $999 rifle is going to be shooting 1/4 moa groups put together with a high end barrel, chassis system with AR triggers!? Sorry if I'm not all excited, but my BS flag is half raised. So far it's internet talk.

http://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6290468/1

I'm saying this because chassis systems often have bedding issues, stock AR triggers have a 100# trigger pull, AR mags have a short mag box putting the bullet further away from the rifling and lessening the chance to tighten groups, AR stocks often fit loose with some slop in them. There's a lot of factors going against 1/4 moa groups there.

Threading a barrel, quality gunsmithing work, and cost of a high end barrel will easily exceed $500-$600. That doesn't leave much room to the $999 price tag.

I'll get him to send some group pics.
I won't post the name or anything specific just yet, not until all the legalities are done.
But on the price issue, he doesnt try to make a big profit per rifle, usually averages about 50-75 each.
Most of the items are machined in house, that saves cost.
I'm sure it'll have the standard items, and can be customized from there.

But, like I mentioned earlier- any AR trigger will drop in (Giessele, Timney, CMC, etc) And those are some good triggers.
The standard stock is a folding/locked in place stock, the buffer tube adjustable AR style is an option.

Don't post 1 group of 3 shots at 100 yards that just happens to look good once. Show me several groups of 5 shot groups, and some at distance. 1- 3 shot group does not make it a 1/4 moa rifle! Do you know how many rifles I've played with that were legitimate 1/4 moa? Probably 5-10 rifles. And do you know how many rifles I shoot and play with?

Can you please fix this ^^^^ . What is 1/4" moa? 1/4" is inches. 1/4 moa is moa. So what's 1/4" moa?

MOA is 1.047"
1/4 moa is .261"
Sorry, typos happen!

Those are good AR triggers...they are still crap. A good trigger is a Bix N Andy or Jewell and I wasn't going to say it earlier but since Chad has broke the ice, no way he's shooting 1/4" groups consistently with an AR trigger. Most benchrest guys aren't shooting 1/4" consistently, the guns will do it but the shooter can't, unless indoors with no outside variables.

Sorry man. But I'm starting to think this whole thread is a typo.

That's not always the case; the RPR will take either.

Yes, but limited AR mags. It was stated any AR mags, and would also fit an AI mag. Not possible.

Occasionally 1/4 inch groups happen but rifles and shooters that can drive those rifles to those 1/4 inch or less groups consistently day in and day out are much less common.

Wish your friend the nest with the rifles and his business.

I'm not THAT in.... Like I said in my earlier post. I'll sit back and watch this one closely.

I did see Bergara was coming out with a new chassis gun, couple grand

I'm amazed some people are saying they are in already with almost no solid information about the rifle lol

From my previous experiences with the owner of the company, it'll be good to go

RPR won't work with true AI brand mags. I've seen 4 that can't use a true accuracy international brand mag. Accurate mags work fine though.

The customer that brought his RPR to my range used my A.I. mags just fine. He also used a P-Mag, and a steel mag from my LR308.

These are all first run rifles so maybe that's the problem. The true AI mag are too tight. P mags worked as did the accurate and Ruger (accurate brand) but the AI's were no go in all.

Wonder if Ruger modified the catch later on? Wonder if some file work would make those you saw operate an A.I. Mag?

It's possible, I never looked close to see where the issue was. I just knew the mags worked in my gun and not there's. They can file their rifles all they want just not my mags.

Talked with manufacturer today, I'll be the southern distributor for his firearms once my type 7 is complete and approved.

looking forward to these rifles

He also has several models of AR's
556/223
6.8
300BO
6.5 gren
308
and many other variants, plus custom bolt guns and pistols

I'm supposed to get a pretty good supply (atleast one of each caliber/style) once my FFL is complete

Any plans for a run of Left handed Rifles ?

Possibly once they are in full production

As distributor, will you be wholesaling the guns to shops, or selling to the general public?

I would think his comment that he should be getting "one of each caliber/style" answers that question haha

One of each for my shop to sell to general public, and I'll be distributing to other shops that carry them

when you going to post pics of this Frank'n gun....

Once testing is complete and my rifle sent.
I'll post up pics and let ya'll take it for a test drive if inclined.

this is goin to be the most watched and anticipated thread on here in a long time

<watching this nail biter>

I'm in. Just name the place. If not, I have access to an 800 yard range we can put the 1/4" moa (that's 1/4 inch moa) rifle to work.

I heard the same from one of Rugers Sales rep too.
It looks like the rifle manufacturers don't want their sub par righty shooting friends to be outdone by the better left handed shooters ?

making 50-75 doesn't sound like much to me. He would have to be making a metric crap ton to make a profit. Tooling and r&d alone will take a long time to recover

that's what he'll have to settle being a new manufacturer

he'll make good profit on volume

gun dealers don't make a lot of money;
selling ammo = they make more

Makes his money on contracts to govt agencies that buy lots of full autos
[/quote]

making 50-75 doesn't sound like much to me. He would have to be making a metric crap ton to make a profit. Tooling and r&d alone will take a long time to recover [/quote]

I'm all in for a solid USA manufacturer of firearms.

I agree. If the product is delivered and lives up to the OPs hype he'll sell a bunch of guns for his buddy

Let's not rush the foreplay.

Tagged

Is this a a real thing or not? I'm capable of 1/4 MOA rifle testing if it is.

It is real. There's a few sample rifles being tested now.
Once all the durability testing and legalities are done, it will be on!
Expecting production in less than 90 days

I thought that was everyone on the Internet, or is it just half of us can shoot half MOA?

Everybody does! It's the in thing!

There's one thing I know for fact. In shooting competitions, when you put up 5- 1" dots at 100 yards, most shooters will struggle to get 1 round inside of a each dot. I've been a range officer MANY times and scored targets many targets. But if everyone has a 1/2 moa or better rifle, then these 1" dots are over twice that big to get a point on each dot. (1.00" plus the .308" bullet being shot, just to clip the edge)

Everyone knows I shoot 1/16th MOA!!!

ha ha lol I regularly have to do it in front of clients. Especially in the reloading classes. Gotta love the typer snipers lol

Bartlein bbls will be on these rifles!
Just got the news 1 hr ago, changed from previous manufacturer due to inability to keep up

Oh, and when these come in, I will have a demo rifle for all that are interested in trying one out.

And the price tag is still $999 for 1/4" moa, right?

Still the goal, didn't say that the bartlein bbl affected cost any

Chad is an FFL, mail it to him for a week loan. He and NTRP, and I can see what it can do....

1 MOA at 1/16th the distance doesn't count. Like Kenny said "Dammit Kyle"

Can we place bets on who does the best?

Hey no one stated any distances.

Sure, but I don't even know who I'd bet on...

I'd bet on me, at least to show how a bad shooter can make a great gun shoot bad. Or Kyle, he can demonstrate this better than I can

Damn, boys, an MOA is an MOA!

(It only took Jason a few hours to beat that into my head....a he he hates MOA!)

P_102

Have we seen a prototype of picture of this gun? Sounds great but if it looks like a turd....

Prototypes have no finish and are still rough machined.
Should be soon and we'll have some pics

Hey now!!!! Lol should have saw me today fighting the wind gusts. There were some gusts that were 2 mils at 800. Was pretty bad but got the new 3-15 SWFA sighted in today though love it. It has the new mil quad DMR reticle really like it.

hell no its a fake to get everyone replying to this stupid thread ..........like me

Can guarantee its not a fake and will even wager $1k to anyone who wants to bet otherwise

Chase Curtis posted pics of his actions before they were finished and in production. It had us drooling for months.

I'm curious as to what the big secret is? Who is making it, specs, etc. Barrel supplier has already changed, apparently because manufacturer could not keep up with huge demand?? Guess just wait till Monday and call Bartlein and discuss this new gun with them... I'm sure they are excited about it, chance to sell thousands of barrels, probably have to buy some new equipment... Color, bull or sporter, length, finish, fluted, threaded, etc.

Base rifle will be black, but can be customized, bbl is along the lines of a sendero/light sender, length depends on caliber (that was mentioned on earlier pages), threaded bbl, flutes weren't mentioned

He was having issues with supply on his AR bbls from previous manufacturer so decided to go with bartlein.

I will not mention the maker until all legalities are finished with this rifle.
We are business partners in some other ventures, and I'm helping him gauge interest on it. Should be less than 90 days for these to be in full production

you are definitely going with allot of hype, I'll just call it marketing? kinda like the new corvette covered in black wrap so no one can see it.

So, has the manufacturer been released yet? Any idea when?

No, its g-14 classified.

As I've mentioned several times previously, I won't release manufacturer until all the legalities and testing are done. It will be around 90 days

Since this has turned into a sales post and it appears you like to gamble, I'll throw this out there. I'll buy the first one at $1250...but you've got to shoot three 5 shot groups at less than or equal to .25 MOA off a bipod and rear bag. If the gun can't you pay me $500 and we both go on our way.

Now, this thread just got interesting...

Dang!

Oh snap! Chit just got real up n here

To be the man, you gotta beat the man! Wooh!

-Ric Flair

I think Judd is realer, at the moment.



Interested in both thread and rifle, but only one seems to be real right now.

You didn't see that from the very first post?

I found a leaked photo:

Man, you guys are ruthless!!!

I be this whole thread played out so much better in your mind before you decided to hit that submit button on the original post.

The THF can be a tough crowd and isn't afraid to call B.S. when it sees it.

No BS on my end.

So is that a No or am I getting the first one?

What caliber would you prefer?
I'm getting the first 20" 308

As far as the shooting, I'll let the pro's on here do the firing. I'm sure they are better than me and will give it a fair go.

I'll let who ever you choose do the shooting and I'll let you pick the caliber...I'll take the one that shoots .25 moa groups or your money.

A fella can't have to many .25 moa rifles in the safe.

Fixinto start mowing some lawns...
$999 for .25 MOA seems too good.

Done. I accept.

Must meet the specs you outlined in this thread, with the repeatable 1/4 MOA @ 400 yards while being shot as intended (this is a hunting/comp rig. Bipod, rearbag, etc... no sleds or other muckery)

but we both you won't accept this because you know your mouth is writing checks you can't cash. It's not your fault - your excited for your buddy, I get it - but your making claims that make no sense.

Here is where you went wrong. Whatever you did to get Chad, the nicest guy in the world to snap off at you - that's the exact moment you went wrong.

No where do I see a 1/4 Moa guarantee. Only that at least one has been producing 1/4 moa groups...

I am sure many custom gun makers have made a gun that will do 1/4 Moa. But that doesn't mean all there guns can

Thank you!!!
Looks like you fully read the post.
No where did I say it was 1/4moa guaranteed!! All that was said was the test rifle was producing 1/4moa @ 400yds.
Heck, I don't even know what caliber the test rifle is. Its up in the northern US.

My guarantee/wager was that this rifle was not a fake.

You're saying 1/4 moa right here in the previous post. It doesn't say "guaranteed". But what you are saying or implying (not just talk!) is that 6 rifles in testing are shooting 1/4 moa. If you have a rifle that will feed any AR mag and AI mags, shoots 1/4 moa, uses Bartlein barrels, and all for $999, I'll buy 10 of them right now. I have access to an 800 yard range and I load custom ammo as my job. I will be happy to meet you or have the rifle delivered to me for 1 week to put the rifle through it's paces. I'll give it an honest testing with top-notch ammo.

My point is, I have shot hundreds of rifles for testing and load development. Most high end custom rifles come in at 1/3 to 1/2 moa in accuracy. Very few make the 1/4 moa accuracy threshold. And you have 6 of them at 1/4 moa. And lastly, if you do not know how to correctly make an accuracy claim by stating it shoots 1/4" moa (inch and moa together), how are you sure it will actually do it. I am sure your buddy has a great system going for him. I fully support companies stepping out and creating new products that no one else has. I've been on the internet since Hitler was a Private. So " 1/4" moa" claims with the system described has a lot of fluff and hype to it with no backing (yet). If you send me a rifle for testing, and it meets the 1/4 moa accuracy claim for $999, I will be happy to eat crow. Until then, it's just a lot misstated fluff. My $.02 until I get a rifle.

I didn't see a guarantee, nor do I need one. The rifles will either be shooters or they won't. Even at 1/2 MOA they'd be stupid accurate.

My only question is, 90 days out from production, six rifles in testing, WHERE IS THE PIC OF THE PROTOTYPE??? Also, I don't see how you can deliver that for $999 but I guess we'll find out.

Make that 700, Chad. I was out Sunday and I'm pretty sure there was some sort of Romulan shield protecting the 800.



P_102

I fought that same shield on Saturday Chris you're not alone. LOL

Oh, I thought the shields started at 600. At least that's what I ran into with my AR10.

Agree talk is cheap. But even if it's 3/4 Moa that would still be a great deal at 1k.


What I don't see possible is the price not the accuracy. The barrel retails for 350ish. Add in a smith time, action, and a stock. No manufacture that I have ever met will design and make something for that little profit. The rpr has set the market at 1200-1500 area.

I hit 800 after both of you left, Saturday. I don't know what yall's problem is.

That's just cuz we scared it so bad it gave up! Right Kyle?

P_102

Exactly

1. I can't believer this thread made it 6 pages.

2. I can't believe I've read all 6 pages.

Boomalakachaka.

I approached this topic like a basket ball game. Watch the first few minutes (post) and the last couple of minutes (post).

I'll believe the subject matter when I see it!

i hate to admit it, but I read all (now) 9 pages too.....

I think we have all been TROLLED

What is the weight expected to be?

As of right now, it's weightless.

dont bite Grizz it aint happening

chirp chirp

oh, no you didn't!

Blah blah blah, I read from back to front. Got the good before it got to the bad.

I thought this thread had died just like the imaginary gun.

The awkwardness when "the little birdy" is actually a mouse, which are known to be silent--"quiet as a mouse."

That 1/4 MOA promise must be a bitch to achieve I guess

Dang, tough crowd. Let's at least see what the rifle is about before we take shots at the guy. If they're getting some 1/4 MOA groups in testing, good for them. I'm glad to see competition in this market.

I concur.

Wow some people really know how to be a dick.

Welcome to the internet

I'll be watching this and be buying one if all he says is true. My last custom gun, the bartlein barrel alone and raw set me back $400.

There is just no way someone can produce a rifle as described and sell it for a grand retail and stay in business. Just not possible. If 999 is retail the manufacturer has to be selling it for $600 or less to the vendor in order for the retailer to be able to mark it up enough to make a profit at 999. That means the manufacturer has to produce the entire rifle for $300 a pop to make a profit when they wholesale. The business just don't add up.

This guy asked for and received exactly what he got and is getting. He made some huge claims on this rifle and then states he the distributor...so in essence he posted to advertise. Finally, as any of you can see won't back up any his claims of this fictitious rifle. I've learned years ago, if it smells like it...dang sure don't step in it to see.

Sorry, but if you are going to claim 1/4" MOA (that's 1/4 inch moa, not just 1/4" or 1/4 moa), at least f'in bluff me by saying it right! If you shoot one 3 shot 1/4" group, does that make it acceptable to claim 1/4 moa (or 1/4" moa) accuracy for all 6 rifles? No! If you read the specs and claims and what the rifle will do, and at the price $999 point, it's not possible! Period! If you don't understand that, then you are getting the wool pulled over your eyes. I'd like to see it and shoot it first.

I'm 100% for new and creative rifles that make things simpler and easier to use. But if you understand rifles, ammo, and accuracy, you can see right through this.

I think you're taking what he said and extrapolating it into something that isn't possible or reasonable. What he said doesn't necessarily qualify as being unreasonable IMHO. His post said, "testing has been producing 1/4"moa groups". Yes, he said 1/4" MOA, which is wrong. But outside of that, I don't think anything about that is BS. My $500 Savage that is bone stock has shot 1/4 MOA at 100 yards with 3 shots before with factory ammo. It will not do it consistently and I wouldn't say that it is a 1/4 MOA gun, but I don't think that's what the OP said either.

Not trying to be argumentative. I just think some of you are taking it pretty hard on a guy coming on here trying to talk about a new rifle at a reasonable price that's allegedly been producing some good groups. If they come on here and claim that the guns are 1/4 MOA guns guaranteed and $999 with the other specs listed, then I'll help you hoist your BS flags. Until then, some of the attacks are a little unwarranted IMHO.

I will be the first to eat crow if a $999 rifle can consistently shoot 1/4 moa groups. And I'll even feed it my best hand loads for a 308 or 6.5 CM. I'm not talking about a one, 3 shot group at 100 yards, and calling it 1/4 moa. Seriously, do you know how many rifles I'd say I have shot that were truly 1/4 moa? Less than the 10 fingers I have. I would like to see this rifle and shoot it. I truly would. I hope it turns out awesome.

up for the latest news?

Why did you do this!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I sent an email to him around Christmas, and did not get any reply.

just excited to see this new gun..

I've heard through the grapevine the roll-out has been delayed due to difficulty in coming up with a name for the rifle. The issue has supposedly been resolved and the rifle will be called, "The ENRON."

They must be still shooting crows with it to get enough for everyone to eat

I can't believe I wasted time reading this thread.

WKH????, I'm blocking you as an idiot. If I wanted to read or listen to useless rhetoric, I'd attend a liberal rally.

You've been dismissed.

I'm late to this party, but you know what they say, If it sounds too good to be true...

I feel like I should have popped some popcorn before reading this thread...

Finally got mine the other day. What a shooter!

Wasn't this supposed to be in full production in November of last year? What's the deal?

I think we've been ghosted, gents.

https://pof-usa.com/revolt/
sounds like the ReVolt

I could buy two of the op rifles for that money.

Must. Hold. Out.

Son of a bitch, I read the last page, made me curious so went back to #1 and just read through this whole damn thing...

WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I take back my words defending the guy. This was trolling at it's finest.

There's a few things over the years you see and hear. Sometimes your red flag gets raised and you tilt your head while squinting an eye, and say, something smells fishy here. I smelled a fish the moment I read this topic. If you know a little bit about rifle building and what it takes to make a good accurate rifle (even 1/2 accuracy), it doesn't happen with $999 and mass production. This whole thread reeked of fish! Now it's almost a year old fish smell that's stuck in your nose and won't go away.

The OP does have a website www.5hdesigns.com, I did not see the rifle on his page, only AR's that he has for sale. I think he had good intentions. Just got excited over an idea, that never came to reality.

Out of curiosity, (and boredom), I called yesterday. The young man stated they had a couple large orders, "500-600 guns" come in and placed this on the back burner. He said nothing about the few guns that were going thru testing a year ago but did say something about the new Tikka coming out, everybody else making them, etc. which sounded like they chose not to compete...I'm guessing they found their target price un-doable, else why not go against the others? P_102