Need Help getting a rifle to group!

Hey everyone. So I have a Win M70 300wsm that I'm trying to get to shoot sub-moa so that I can use it as a trusty long range backpacking rifle. It has a good scope on it (Meopta Meopro) and I've tried quality ammo. The best group I can get out of it so far is just under 2 inches. When I got back from the range last time, I did notice that the two screws holding the stock on where looser than they should be so that could've been part of the problem I guess, but I've not been able to shoot it after tightening them yet. As far as I can tell, the barrel is free floated and the trigger is smooth. I'm planning on starting to reload for the rifle once I have it set up like I want. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I really want this rifle shooting tight groups so I can trust it out to 500 yds. If I can't get it to shoot as well as I'd like, It'll be joining me at the next gun show I go to unfortunately. Thanks in adv.

A picture of the target would help. Action screws not being tight could be it or there are a lot of other possibilities.

I'll take pics next time I shoot it. I don't have any right now.

Loose action screws is the same as a weak foundation on a structure. Everything above it suffers. Tighten the hell out of em, and reshoot.

Next question is what is the twist rate? And what bullet weight are you shooting through it?

Also check the tightness of the scope base, windage screws, and ring cap screws. Blue (low hold) Locktite and a F.A.T. wrench are two cheap items that can remove variables from this problem.

What base and rings are you using?

The action screws should be tight now but haven't shot it after tightening them yet. I'm not sure what the twist rate is yet...i'm going to try and figure that out soon with a buddy who knows how. I was trying 5 different 180 gr factory loads. The scope bases and ring screws should be good. I originally had issues with some std leupold rings/bases but have since changed over to talley's and used removable locktite on all of the screws in the mounting system. I checked the ring screws after shooting it last and they were all still snug.

First thing I would do is bed it. Then you have a base to work from.

Looks like you covered everything. Odds are you have a twist to run those 180's just fine, 1:10 be my guess. Even a 1:11 will stabilize those just fine, specially with all that fuel behind them.

So many variables... How many shots do you shoot in a string? 3,5,10? How hot is the barrel getting? As you've mentioned how tight are all of the screws? How are you resting the rifle as you shoot? "Off of the forearm and not resting on the barrel" What kind of break in and cleaning has the barrel had? Will it shoot a few rounds close and then have some fly off? It's hard to diagnose but hopefully with the knowledge here on the forum and tips from everyone you'll get it dialed in!

I've never done this before. I am thinking about a bell and Carlson stock though if I determine that bedding might be the issue.

I was trying 3 shot groups with time to cool between groups.

I'm resting the rifle on sand bags to shoot and on the stock, not the barrel.

No idea how it was broken in as I'm the second owner but the previous owner just shot 150 gr ballistic tips which I don't want to use.

I clean the barrel at least every time I take it to the range.

I've always heard guys say a dirty barrel is more accurate. I'm still learning to shoot better groups, in no way an expert, but I think it's best to only clean the barrel once accuracy drops off. I wouldn't clean it every trip.

Interesting...

I'm with Tff. These days I clean when accuracy falls off. It varies with the rifle. And it's worth mention that one of my rifles, a 223 with a standard barrel, really needs a cold barrel for best shooting. That makes it hard to hunt for the best powder/bullet combination if I don't have a LOT of patience.

I clean after several hundred rounds, depending on which barrel. My Obermeyer .260 for instance, needs a light carbon removal, followed by several dry patches every 400 rounds.

Sounds like I'll be waiting between cleanings now.

Some rifles have preferences I would shoot some groups with the 180 then try some with the 165 range and the 150. If there is a marked preference it should show quickly. I've seen it in 70's era Sako's within 10 on the serial number range. Also experiment with boattail versus flat base bullets.

Sounds good. Next time I go, I'm already planning on shooting 150s and 165s compared to 180s. I'm hoping to reload 168 Barnes TSX for it eventually.

I never put a rifle away dirty, knowing what powder residue does to a barrel. But I also never expect a clean bore to produce an accurate shot. My rifles always seem to "settle in" after two or three shots.

As mentioned earlier, I would suggest trying another brand of ammo once you feel certain any mechanical issues are resolved. And having someone else fire a few rounds is always a good control component when measuring the accuracy of any barrel.

Find your twist rate.

Match the bullet weight to the twist rate, and it will save you some money on ammo. What ever you do, save your brass. You may decide to start rolling your own. If not you can hire someone to do it for you, and hand loads made from fire formed brass will really tighten up how the rifle shoots.

You're cleaning to much

As I said earlier bed the rifle. Without it you are just pissing in the wind. It is twisted 1-10.

What exactly is your cleaning routine?

Do you flinch/anticipate the recoil? Nice smooth trigger pull? As stated earlier...lots of variables

Winchester Model 70's aren't known to have bedding problems. We already know that the action screws were loose. Bedding the rifle before you even try tightening the action screws is a bit like a doctor recommending surgery before an examination.

JHFC! A properly bedded rifle never shoots worse!

But please carry on, the entertainment value is priceless!

Ive got an unbedded rifle that will shoot 1/4 MOA or less.

Today at, 3 pm I cold bored 600 steel then went 700, and 800. Wonder how that happened without bedding? My 7 Rem Mag is bedded, so I believe in it. But in OP's case he should shoot it after tightening the action screws and see what he gets.

IMO, bedding of the receiver is a last step measure to increase accuracy after all the other issues that can reduce accuracy. In other words, bedding gains a little extra that might not be available otherwise. But even with a bedded receiver, a rifle that has easier to correct and more common issues will not be accurate.

So in other words, you're both right. Bedding can increase the accuracy of most rifles, but many rifles, if setup correctly, don't require bedding to be plenty accurate enough to provide excellent performance.

Just my $.02, but most shooters, myself included, don't shoot accurate enough to get the extra performance created by a bedded receiver.

I seriously doubt I'm flinching or anticipating the recoil. I'm a pretty good shot and the trigger on this gun is good enough that I'm able to surprise myself with a smooth pull of the trigger almost every time.

Thanks everyone for the inputs. I'm going to get out later this week with the rifle now that the action screws are snug and I'll report back to let everyone know how it went.

Absolutely correct. Eliminate the other stuff first before screwing with bedding.

One thing about cleaning, though...some who we would like to believe are truly authorities say that jacket metal varies enough between manufacturers that you should clean all metal fouling out of a bore when you switch bullets. My opinion on that? None. BUT...don't buy into the assumption that just because someone else shooting an expensive hand-lapped barrel can get away without cleaning it for 500 rounds means that you shouldn't clean the barrel on your Model 70 for 500 rounds. You might find you need to clean well after 30 rounds, or 60 rounds, or 100 rounds...your call, you'll know. All barrels are NOT created equal. Don't buy into the notion that a barrel that fouls quickly can't be accurate, either.

I know that's directed at me. Although, I agree that not all barrels are created equal, and that some may want to be cleaned after 50, or 100, or 200, etc. The point is to make notes as to round count on the barrel, and how well it shoots with said round count. The notes will show when accuracy starts to fall off.

My 500 round round count was just an example of how a fouled barrel will shoot very well. Just an example, I should've clarified.

Thanks for the advice on cleaning. I've obviously been a little misdirected on that one. I'll start toning back the cleaning frequency.

Yes, I was hoping you would tell me of your cleaning methods. Most shooters over clean (or should I say, WAY over clean) their rifles. You should easily get 75 to 100 rounds at least before you need to clean the inside of the barrel. But, if I switch ammo (i.e.- powder or bullets) I will generally put a few cleaning patches on a jag to clean out the previous ammo residue and follow it up with a few fouling shots.

The OP stated that the rifle is not bedded!

A properly bedded rifle will never shoot worse! The fact that one thinks having an unbedded rifle is the way to go, is just hysterical!

If I take my barreled action out of the stock, that is bedded and reinstall my POA/POI will be damn near the same...your unbedded rifle...not even close.

This schit is phucking funny!

Tighten the hell out of them? Measure the twist rate?

Please explain the torque value of "the hell out of them". Also please list factory loads for the OPs rig that will not stabilize.

Nevermind. I'll do it for you.

1. It should be torqued to 40 in/lbs front and rear.
2. There are none.

As far as bedding either not being necessary, M70`s not having any known bedding issues or bedding after all else fails I don't recall ever reading such ridiculous assertions.

Anybody reading or posting know what bedding and free floating is for? Anyone actually done it?

If the OP is truly interested in owning a consistently accurate rifle do this:

1. Bed the rifle now or have it done. Make sure it's free floated properly. For a wood stock that would be in the .025 to .030 range.
2. Degrease base screws, reinstall with loctite and torque to 30 in/lbs.
3. Make sure mag box is not binding. If it is fix alignment and if necessary shorten bottom of mag box. This will be an issue and continue to be if you tighten the hell out of the action screws because wood will be compressed over time.
4. Degrease action screws, loctite and torque at 40 in/lbs. If the floorplate depth is incorrect bedding the FP is in order.
5. Reinstall your scope with the crosshairs perfectly perpendicular to the barreled action. If you do not your adjustments will be incorrect. On this very site I had someone tell me that it didn't matter if the crosshairs are crooked. One of the funnier things I've ever read.
6. Buy several brands of ammo in the preferred weight. Find the one you like best and pay attention to the lot number on the box. Buy as much as you need of the SAME LOT.
7. Adjust trigger to you liking. I'd recommend no less than 2.5 lbs as it's a hunting rig not a BR rig.

If you want an accurate rifle variables have to be eliminated at the beginning. If that's not logical I don't know what else to say.

BR shooters do the listed and more before shooting one round down the tube. They don't shoot, tighten, shoot, loosen, bed the action, shoot different bullet weights, tighten, hold their mouth a certain way, tighten ring screws, hyperventilate, etc.

Consistency from the get go is the key. Do anything else and you'll be best friends with your local hair club for men.

Eliminate the other stuff first before screwing with bedding.

That's my sentiment as well. While a rifle with a bedded receiver and with no other mechanical issues will never shoot better, even a bedded rifle with other issues will never be accurate.

Increasing cylinder compression will be of little consequence if one of the pistons has a hole in it.

Most modern factory sporters will group from 3/4 to 1 inch without touching the bedding. It might only be with one bullet weight but they will. I have a 30/06 that doesn't particularly like 150 and 180 grain loads but will shoot 3/4 inch 3shot groups with 165 gr Federal Premium. More important then group size the cold bore shot is dead on the second shot is about a 1/4 high it's the third shot that opens up the group. It all depends on what you want in accuracy remember even a pronghorn has a 15in X 15in vital area.

So what you two (nsmike and Texas dan) are saying is don't mess with it until you have exhausted everything else first?

What a load of crap! Karnis leads you two to water yet you won't drink. I'm sure all the long range shooters do it just like you two numbnuts....start wit a properly bedded rifle and all the other adjustment will fall into place.

Just admit you haven't a clue of what you are talking about, it is the first step to recovery. ..

Fail.

Fail.

Why are you so sure that a rifle that has loose action screws is also improperly bedded. I bet the OP gets his groups down under 1 1/2 inches by tightening them. I expect he can shave another 1/2 in off by finding a bullet the rifle likes. If you want smaller then perhaps you need to have a rifle built from scratch because a lot of factory spec barrels won't shoot smaller then 3/4. While your at it explain how Fireman JG's unbedded rifle shoots 1/4" groups.

14 lb rifle with a barrel like a truck axle in a light recoiling caliber. Oh and it won't average 1/4". Occasionally maybe. Bet it's a 6mm or 6.5 of some kind.

Speculating won't make a rifle shoot better. You obviously haven't worked on a rifle with anything but a screw driver purchased at the local box store.

If it shoots "good enough" without bedding then it doesn't need to be bedded. If it doesn't shoot "good enough" without being bedded then maybe it does.

What is "good enough"?

That's up to the shooter. MOA, minute of vitals whatever your chasing. I personally don't own a bedded rifle that I know off and mine all shoot good enough for me, I'd bet probably not for some though.

I don't want to jump into what already sounds like mud slinging but with this post Karnis is right, there is a lot that goes into all of this, thats why customs are expensive, attention to details and good components.

Reminds me of this classic photo!

Karnis Bed's every rifle for me before I even start

so true it hurts!

Few people realize how little margin of error it takes to increase group size by 1/4". The answer is approximately .001" from the line of sight. That 1 thousandth of an inch. Quadruple that amount and you have 1" at 100 yds. That's why bedding is important along with properly tightened screws that do not stress an action and erectors assemblies on scopes that are spot on and repeatable.

Now think about people that say they routinely shoot MOA with a hunting rifle. Maybe. But it certainly isn't simply attributed to tightening the hell out if some action screws.

Bedding should be done upfront why wait a bedded rifle never shoots worse. :smh:

I guess I'm one of the unlucky ones. The only bedded rifle I have shoots .75". That's worse than all my stupid unbedded factory rifles.

Yep...you proved us wrong! Please, don't pretend to have a clue...everyone knows you don't.

Wow and thankfully all of them are identical right?

For all the naysayers why don't you guys go post on BR Central and ask if bedding is important. Then ask how many unbedded rifles finish in the top 10.

The answer would be yes and zero.

Consistency not conjecture wins. Everytime.

No one has thrown a shooters ability into this equation. I have seen countless "shooters" spend untold amounts of money on the supposed "best of the best", built by the best, designed by the best.... "whatever" and still couldn't put 3 shots together at any yardage. And what was their answer? "I need to go spend some more money and have this rifle worked on some more". And as others have mentioned what is the measure of accuracy? I have seen very few rifles from any manufacturer that would NOT shoot 1" at 100! To me that is not that outstanding of a benchmark I expect it from just about any modern rifle out of the box. Give a rifle to 10 different shooters and see how many different group sizes you get.

Edit: Because I know better.

The OP is talking about a 8.75lb rifle that isn't shooting. Folks post that tightening screws, checking twist is what it takes. Bedding is not an issue or important.

The point is 95% of people shooting rifles on this site don't know what makes a rifle tick. Interjecting that I have 15 unbedded rifles that shoot in the teens is no help whatsoever.

Far as all factory rifles being expected to shoot 1" or less is pure hogwash. The occasional one? Yes. Truly average 1" or less without doing anything? You have a gem or are on some serious meds.

You not meant as "you". I'm using quick reply.

We're talking about the rifle not the shooter but that being said your right. Some spend thousands and can't hit a trash can lid at 50 yds.

How does that help the OP?

This is true. And as you stated a few post above, all of my rifles that shoot well from the factory are similar. Made in Finland. I also appreciate you sharing your knowledge without undue negativity.

If you bed the ones that aren't you think they will shoot worse?

If this is to me then I will say the only one that is not is a savage and it is bedded. 1.5" groups before. .75" after bedding. I believe bedding is a plus. I'm only stating a rifle does not have to be bedded to shoot well.

Peach on this is good stuff!

Think may be missing what he is saying. I tell customers this all the time. Its is all about reducing margin of error. You want to know that if the group is off that statistically it is you not the gun, just take out all the variables you can within your budget. Will some guns shoot great with out anything.. yeah. But most need a little something to get them there.

Then why not bed the ones that aren't

I guess because they already shoot better than I can and one in particular better than most custom guns. It's the only one I target shoot with at any range. The rest are T3 lites and I want to keep the weight down for hunting.

I stand behind that statement. Loser buys the beer. I like Dos Equis.

Dos Equis sucks.

Try Negra Modelo. Nectar of the gods.

This is just plain silliness!

Maybe it is to you. I don't see a purpose in adding weight to a .5-.6" gun that's going to used at 250 yards or less. Even a few ounces is not worth it to me.

Great you're back. The one that insults everyone that has a different opinion. Get off your vacation from the THF did ya? And now right back to old habits. No way can my rifles shoot, no way can I shoot since I don't do it your way. Same as everyone else around here that does it different from you.

Here we go again.

No, never mind putting you on ignore.

Good deal.

Now I won't have to read about your tighten the hell out of them comments. Most informative.

How's your 14lb .260 shooting and how does it compare to the 8.75lb .300WSM?

Oh wait it doesn't.

Grow up little man and post something useful once in awhile.

Really the bedding weight is a deal breaker. That is comical.

Where you hunting with these light weights, like to see some pics of hunts that bedding weight would truly matter. Those would be awesome hunts with really great views from up there.

You forgot to post the factory offerings that won't stabilize properly in a 1-10 twist which is standard for a .308.

We'll all be waiting with baited breath......

I guess I was foolish to get into a conversation about this. Guess I'm the idiot here. But talk all the [censored] you want. The offers on the table. Loser buys the beer.

What's the bet

Heck idk. Any of your custom rigs vs my stock unbedded rifle. 5 five shot groups for a total of 25 rounds. Since some one said above it wouldn't do it consistently that should cover it. As many warm up shots as you want. I guess average all five groups. Best average wins. You can pick the yardage from 100-400. Bet is a 12 pack.

Can you tell i made that up as I went along.

Lol. You betting me or him. I am confused

I know we are both going to range next month same time to get my rifle and Kacee's ready for Africa trip.

Heck I was betting you. But I can buy more than one 12pk.

Come on out and shoot with us I will buy beer just for you driving out

Let me know where and when and I'll try to make it.

I'm not a crack shot by any means, but I can shoot one inch groups at 100 yards with any of my rifles, none of which have bedded receivers. I shoot my tightest groups with a Remington ADL that doesn't have a bedded receiver, nor a free floated barrel.

I'm done with this thread after this reply. It's not that different weights don't stabilize in 1/10 twist barrels it that different sporter weight barrels have different harmonics and may shoot different bullet weights differently. Some rifles shoot flat based bullets better than boattails some are the opposite.

I'm sure the 600 dollar synthetic stock and mag box assembly have zero to do with it.

You should of asked JG about the components, that more or less accomplish the same thing as pillar/ bedding.

Ya'll can take a decent thread and crap all over it. Who gives a [censored] at this point.

I've seen many unbedded factory rifles shoot very well for a hunting gun. BR and hunting rifles are 2 totally different concepts.

I get that but its still part of the process of elimination when having accuracy issues.

Makes little sense if your gun is moa or better in all types of environmental conditions but if its not why not do it. Cheap insurance.

Why not go a head a true /blueprint an action if your going to rebarrel same kind of deal

Yep... by the way your stock shipped today and your barrel is getting contoured next week so bout 10-14 days out back to ya. So getting really close

McMillan A-5 and CDI bottom metal. Stock is not bedded. I can provide 513 yard 5 shot group and 100 yard 3 shot group if requested.

Yes, Chad it gets dirty, quick. And I don't know why it turns into a wiener measuring contest.

That's my point, think it would shoot just as good in a take off adl stock?

Bedding is never a bad idea. Especially if you hunt multiple enviromental conditions.

Is bedding the end all be all not at all but cheap insurance, just like why you have cheap mounts and rings and expensive ones, probably a good idea to lap them both.

Hell with it, I'll do it anyway.

Not bedded McMillan A-5. Savage action that is unmodified, and still wearing an Accutrigger. All shots prone with rear bag, and Harris 6-9" bipod.

513 yards. 140 gr. Hornady A-max



111 yards. 130 Berger VLD, 3 shots. Ended up .09", and this aint a bench rest gun.



Why bed it?

Me likey

Would it make shoot worse? Could it make it shoot even better?

Wow...didn't realize I was opening such a can of worms. This thread sure exploded. Thanks to everyone who posted a reply that was helpful. I will be taking most of this into account when I take the rifle out this Sat to shoot it hopefully. I'm going to borrow a torque wrench to make sure the action screws are properly tightened and shoot a few rounds before letting the barrel cool so that I know the barrel being too clean isn't an issue. I'm then going to try a few different grain bullets of various brands and see what happens. I'll be shooting off sand bags and though I don't claim to be all world, I can certainly hold my own when it comes to being a good shot. I will take some pics of the groups I shoot if I make it out and will post either on this or a new thread for you guys to take a look at and see if that will help diagnose the issue if it's still not shooting like i'd like. Thanks again.

Was this a flat top or full inlet a5 ????

I ordered a McMillan A-5. When it wanted to know what action to inlet for I filled in Savage short action.

BMD, no it won't get worse, and I doubt I can shoot better than that. Again, why bed it, just to say I did? It's not a hard recoiling round, and it gets shot with a brake or a suppressor. This barrel is about done so bedding is not on my to-do list. My 7 Rem Mag shooting 180's is bedded and it weighs much less. I felt it was going to be necessary, and it probably was. I never shot it un-bedded.

Why buy insurance if you are good driver? Crap happens

Not the same thing.

A machine is working very well, and you want to modify the machine to maybe, make it better, maybe not. I don't have time for that BS. A third of my life is spent at a fire station and the other two thirds are spent running a private rifle range and a fabrication business. I have better things to do than bed a rifle that isn't showing me it needs it.

It will damn sure make it more consistent if you don't think so shoot it how you want it is yours, but to recommend not doing it is not the best plan. To each his own bedding is only another part that improves and makes a rifle more consistent.

That's right. What's wrong with him tightening action screws and going back to the range? Maybe it'll shoot 1" for 5 at 100. Bedding might make it shoot 3/4" for 5 at 100. Maybe 1" is good enough for him, if not, bed the action. I also replied to the comments made than an un-bedded rifle won't shoot well. I proved otherwise.

The point you missed is that I was on the side of tighten everything down, go shoot the rifle. Improvement? Yes or no? If yes, good, if no, we need to look at other possibilities and one of those possibilities is to bed the action. But that is step two, not step one. I want everyone to shoot more, that's how we get better. What's it going to hurt having him tighten action screws (free by the way) and go back to the range and retest? This is science, not voodoo. Eliminate variables, one at a time.

I'd have a rifle bedded if nothing else worked, but on second thought maybe I'd just get rid of the rifle. I have two that are bedded and a few that aren't. The most recent (Tikka) isn't bedded, and I did worry a bit about the synthetic stock, but there was no need to worry. It's the best shooter I have.

I do have one rifle that shoots pretty good (Ruger Hawkeye in 223), but now that I have the Tikka I want the Ruger to shoot that good too. Rather than restock and bed it, I will probably have a new high dollar barrel put on it and have the action squared up. I won't have it bedded.

Somebody did say that "it can't hurt to bed it", and he's probably right. I can't argue with that, but I probably still won't go that way again.

^^ This. You take it one step at a time. The OP mentioned the action screws were loose and he (probably) was over cleaning the rifle. Fix these 2 items, and then see where we stand. It's a hunting rifle, not a BR rifle.

It seems there are a few people that get involved in a topic and turn it upside down. Why? What's the point?

Like I said back at the beginning of this thread, I'm still learning to tighten groups through working on proper technique. If after I get my technique down, I'm able to shoot 1" groups, I won't spend an extra dime or minute working on my gun to get it more accurate than that. The way I see it is, if a gun is performing the way I want, why spend an extra dime to make it do more. It's a hunting rifle. To me, it would be like putting a turbocharger in a car that you drive to church and back. It will make it perform better, but it's unnecessary. Not everybody has unlimited funds to spend on a rifle, so get it where you are happy with it, an quit spending money.

Just don't get it, it is ok it is your money.

Really recommending a rifle be bedded is turning a thread upside down?

I'll add, if I can't get my groups where I'm happy with them, I'll look into ways to accurize the rifle, including bedding. But I'm confident I can get it where I want it without it.

Nobody is arguing that bedding a rifle won't make it shoot better. But if you are happy with where it's add, why spend the time and money.

No acting like your God and saying bedding is the only way and everyone who disagrees is an idiot is turning a thread upside down.

To most everyone who has posted on this topic, you do not understand bedding, the proper use, why it is done now, action bedding, free floating a barrel or complete barrel bedding or partial barrel bedding or pillar bedding or how to tighten action screws on a Win 70 and whether the same procedure is done on a pre vs post 1964 model. Someone does not understand McMillan stocks, you may own them but that doesn't mean you understand McMillan. And how you can compare a $500-900 custom stock to a factory stock is beyond me. Many have forgotten why we have fiberglass stocks and how the rifle manufacturers sold you a bill of goods to save them money. Instead of trying to help everyone is defending their personal belief.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm in way over my head when it comes to this kind of stuff. But again, the root of this whole discussion isnt wether bedding actually helps. I think we all agree it's going help. But the discussion seems to be, if you are happy with the way a rifle shoots, is it really necessary to bed the action. Guys just saying "will it hurt?" Aren't helping the discussion. Of course it won't make it worse. But if you are perfectly pleased with your groups, it's unnecessary to bed it. Now give that same rifle to a guy who wants to get more accuracy out of it, and he may feel bedding it is necessary. But an imbedded rifle can be accurate enough for its user.

No one is acting like god, lol. Some talk out both sides of their mouth. Oh it is just a hunting rifle and next sentence is about the lil bitty groups. I am pretty sure a dead animal could care if bedded or not, so if it is just a hunting rifle why discuss the little bitty groups.

I like to have the best odds on making a shot I need to make on an animal I want, so I do everything I can to make the rifle as good a tool as it can be in case the real factor (loose but behind trigger) doesn't do everything as perfect

Telling people- fail, Grow up little man and post something useful once in awhile, and preaching about comparing BR rifles to hunting guns while being rude doing it. WTF? Go circle jerk with the BR guys then.

A hunting rifle does not "have" to be bedded to shoot good. Sure, bedding will generally help improve consistency and accuracy (but I've seen some crappy bedding jobs that made things worse). But it's not a requirement. Unbedded factory rifles can still shoot very well. If the OP states he's over cleaning a rifle and the action screws are loose, then fix those 2 issues first, then go re-shoot the rifle and see if that improves the accuracy, which it probably will. You don't "have" to bed the thing. If the rifle doesn't like the ammo he's shooting, then a bedding job won't do squat. Comparing a BR rifle to a factory hunting gun is pointless. Yes, they are both still a rifle. But a person doesn't have to add all the bells and whistles to get a factory rifle to shoot.

Sure, you may know how to shoot and may be the best shooter to hit ticks off deer balls at 1K yards. But being rude is uncalled for. It seems there are a few people here that every time they post something, it turns into a bad thread and name calling. So, why?

My point exactly.

Some have lower tolerance for ignorance especially when they act like they know everything, which I do not, but I certainly know having a rifle bedded properly is a positive!

Its kinda hard to argue with the repeatable achievements of some of the ignorant people who don't know anything.

Different strokes for different folks, there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you want to bed it fine that's great, but there is plenty of proof out there that bedding is not required for hunting level accuracy.

The gun has loose screws, to me bedding it before you try it with correctly tightened screws is like having the transmission in your truck rebuilt before you check to see if it is low on fluid.

If it was my rifle, I'd torque the guard screws properly then shoot it to see what happens, in the interest of knowing. I've bedded every singe rifle I own and shoot with any frequency because I DO think it will improve them virtually every time and it has never made a rifle shoot worse...a few never did improve though. If I ever buy a rifle that shoots 1/4-MOA out of the box (and I am not holding my breath!) I'll probably think it over for quite a while.

All I am saying is that I think better to change one thing at a time and find out how it effects the gun. I prefer to not find myself wondering what I've done right.

More like adding mud tires to a 4x4 rather than street tires.

I just have em bedded before I ever shoot them and then no worries

But the OPs rifle is not a Remington. It may actually shoot without replacing or reworking every part.

Just kidding. I like what you've done with your rifles.

May or may not but bedding makes sure everything fits the exact same way when you do torque the screws

Absolutely. Troubleshooting 101 teaches to check all the easy and most common issues first before moving on to the more complex possibilities. Doesn't start. Does it have gas? Won't shoot decent groups. Was the scope mounted correctly?

Still, IMO, 99% of hunters will be satisfied with their groups given a good rifle and ammo and correctly installed scope.

Yup.

as if there aren't some big ole egos on this side as well

All this back and forth chatter over shooting tight groups has me wanting to make a trip to the range.

I just want my new gun to come in!

Childish way of trying to get a rise.

Funny as heck. I went to the range today because of this thread.

Well, there you go. Different perspectives entirely.

To me, fiddling with the rifle and finding ways to improve it are a part of the joy of owning it. Finding out why it does this or that is just as interesting as any other aspect of owning it. To another guy, just shooting it--and with factory ammo, at that---might be all he wants out of it. Someone such as yourself...if I'm reading you right, you take it to someone and order up a program to optimize it, then you like to hunt with confidence and there's nothing wrong with that either. Guys have been known to buy a brand new Model 70 and take it to a gunsmith who removes everything from the action and builds a total custom rifle around it with all the precision machine work that can be done to it. If they can afford that and it makes them happy, fine and dandy. Some of us would rather see what we can do with our own two hands and see what we can learn along the way. Then there's the guy who buys a cheap single-shot that won't keep within five inches at 100, but he shoots his deer every year from 30 yards and he's happy as a lark.

The supply of different perspectives is inexhaustible.

Well I took the rifle over to a buddy's tonight who has a good torque wrench. We tightened the action screws to the same torque while adding some removable locktite. I'm going to try and make it to the range this weekend, shoot some shots to get the barrel ready and then try a few different types of ammo. We'll see what happens. If that fixes it enough so that it shoots close to 1 inch groups, I'll probably start developing a load for the gun...if not, it'll be whether or not to get a better stock and have it bedded. Thanks for all the good advice and sheer entertainment value along the way.

Good plan!

Like I think I said earlier, sometimes you just get a rifle that's a bit finicky, and it takes more work to find just that right load or factory load. I'd most certainly play with loads before I started spending big money on rifle modifications. I consider my Ruger 223 (completely stock, as purchased) to be finicky, but on the other hand I shoot all sorts of bullet weights and types in it, so I guess I've spent more time working up loads for that one rifle than any other that I've ever owned. I'm not really a patient guy, so I have to be in the mood to load and shoot.

as if there aren't some big ole egos on this side as well

[/quote]

Childish way of trying to get a rise. [/quote]


As if this isn't....

Which hunting rifle would be better after a little fall from a tree or a saddle??? Bedded or not bedded You are out in the rocky mtn hunting elk. Five miles from camp. Lean your gun against a tree for lunch time. Wind comes up an your gun falls to the ground. Would you want a bedded gun or not.

I would take a bedded rifle

Shoot Fire and Save the Matches Boyz!




POOF!

Yep...

Hows the crown look?

I didn't drop my non-bedded rifle. I fell on it, from off of a wooden stand ladder. Fell on rocks (small rocks, but still rocks). Didn't hurt the Leupold scope and didn't hurt the rifle or the POI. Bedding is nice, but it is not the be-all, end-all, gotta-have thing for your rifle. If you want it, fine. If you don't have it, it isn't a disaster. My two best shooters are my 220 (bedded) and my new 260 (Tupperware stock and not bedded). Most of you just wish you had rifles that shoot like that. And my Ruger Hawkeye, which shot a nice 1/2 inch group a day or two ago (I just measured it) is in that Ruger Tupperware stock and isn't bedded. I do think that if you want the last little tiny bit of grouping improvement you can get, bedding is a good thing, but I have a lot of accuracy improving steps to go through before I get down to that.

Take a crummy shooting rifle and bed it and you still most likely have a crummy shooting, though bedded, rifle.

I'll take this bet.

so let me get this straight, without calling anybody out but the case length has to be right,the primers have to be right,the bullet has to be just right right bc etc. the powder brand and the charge just right,the barrel right,the twist right, the crown, the length just right,the amount of cleaning just right,the break in just right,the trigger brand the weight of pull on said trigger just right,the scope mounts they can only be one brand all else is junk, the the rings,lapped, the scope just right are your just a rookie,the temp, the barometric press.,the wind,the rest has to be right,the length of pull,theres more but some wont bed there action cause it's not worth the extra effort that's some funny shirt right there, tightin those screws!!

McMillan 

Official Sponsor of LRH

 

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 105

Re: Should I bed a Mcmillan fiberglass stock?

There are a couple of different issues being discussed here, and I would like to add something if I might. I think I have a unique perspective on both.

My guess would be 70% of the stocks we sell never get bedded. To this group I am sure the percentage is much lower be generally long range shooter want to get everything possible out of their rifle when it comes to accuracy. Unless you are buying a custom shop rifle or one that uses the squirt in thermoset bedding production rifles are not bedded. With plastic stocks the recoil lug is molded in, wood stocks they are machined in. In either case we can do as good or better a job of inletting the stocks than the mass producers. So, we say, your rifle should shoot as well or better than it did with the factory stock without bedding it, but, if you want the very best accuracy from your rifle, you need to glass bed it. It may not improve the accuracy much because we find that with most production barreled action and a McMillan stock, you can get very close to the accuracy potential without bedding, but you will never know how much that improvement is going to be until you bed it. A good clue is if your rifle is shooting 1 moa your improvement is likely to be very little. Very few productions rifle will shoot a lot better than that even if the shooter can. Any larger groups than an inch can give you hope that the bedding will make a bigger difference.

Now to the really important part, pillar bedding. I think I can speak to this issue because my father, Gale McMillan was the originator of the practice. It came out of necessity and had nothing to do with accuracy. In the early days of fiberglass stocks, both Brown Precision Stocks (the originator) and McMillan stocks were made using the lightest material we could find. As a result both had a similar problem. Brown used polyurethane foam to blow out the cloth against the mold and because they molded their receiver area and barrel channels in, there was foam under the action. We used a very light filler made of epoxy resin and micro balloons. With both stocks you could crush the material between the receiver and the trigger guard by tightening the guards screws. The more you tightened the more the receiver would move and the more your shots would wander. 
To solve this problem my father would drill the guard screw holes out to 3/8". He would wax (Johnson's Paste wax! Still the best mold release on the market when it comes to bedding) the screws up and then let the bedding material fill in the hole around the screws during the bedding process. BTW he used Duro Steel filled Epoxy until they added concrete to the mixture for some unknow reason and it no longer was suitable. In an effort to find a substitute, a friend and customer who own a Marine Supply and Boat store told him about Marine Tex. he was also the first to use Marine Tex for bedding........back to the point, afterr the bedding material set, he would drill the holes out just slightly bigger than the guard screws so the pillars were made of bedding material but they were dense enough to stop the receiver area of the stock from compressing.
Eventually we found aluminum pillars to be easier as just as effective so we switched. Word spreads fast in bench rest community and some everyone was pillar bedding.
Today we refer to it as state of the art. But, technology and materials have changed over the years and all but our EDGE Tech (we actually make them with aluminum pillars)and bench rest stocks (Gale was th first to glue a benchrest action into a rifle and toady a great number of benchrest rifles are still built that way)have a dense enough material in the action area that using normal torque settings on the guard screws the material will not compress at all. The Marines tested the stocks we made for them under 100 ft lbs of torque and the got less than .0001 compression on the receiver area. Of course we built those stocks to be Marine proof, we recommend 45-50 in lbs on the guard screws.
One last thing, pillars do one thing and one thing only, stop compression. They don't increase accuracy or reliability and they don't allow you to remove and replace the barreled action any more often without degradation of the bedding. If a McMillan stock is bedded properly using a good compound, like Marine Tex, pillars are unnecessary. So why do we use them? Because it's state of the art, and that is the way people expect it to be done.

I hope this helps.

__________________
Kelly D. McMillan
http://www.mcmillanusa.com/



Yeah forget all that. I'd venture a guess firehose and his buddies weren't aware of this. Yawn......keep on posting you'll do it last or never and keep wasting components. Oh and BTW who measures for runout and what have you found is acceptable?

For the record Kelly McMillan is the poster and his father is Gale McMillan.

......and for those that have rifles with pillars that won't shoot properly scratch the pillars down and skim bed over the pillars with a tight lug. Thank me later.

Read what he wrote A good clue is if your rifle is shooting 1 moa your improvement is likely to be very little. Very few productions rifle will shoot a lot better than that even if the shooter can. Any larger groups than an inch can give you hope that the bedding will make a bigger difference. He seems to be saying If your rifle shoots one MOA or better don't bother getting it bedded!

Then don't bed yours it is yours! I want all mine bedded without exception. But they are mine . Most that want all heir rifles to be all they can be want theirs bedded but no one is twisting your arm. Just tighten those screws.

Nope. But that's OK. Keep arguing consistency is not a good thing. You'll be lucky to get one load to shoot. Action screw gets loose, retighten then you don't have same POI nor same "accuracy". I have multiple rifles that shoot to the same POI after removing and reassembling. No stress on the barreled action, etc., etc., etc.

You think gunsmiths, BR shooters, USAMU, etc do it just to say they do? If you think so no amount of proof is going to help. Go ahead and take pics of the couple of good groups you get and then when you shoot crappy ones toss them in the trash and claim the barrel needs cleaning, screws need to be retorqued, might check the crown, blah, blah. Yeah that's the ticket.

Accuracy is based on many things. One of those is consistency both with the rifle & components. Straight ammunition. You measure runout and how it affects your rig? If it's not consistent you wasted hundreds on measuring equipment. If it's crooked you know it can be straightened to very good effect don't you?

You just don't or won't understand the concept.

Just make sure the loose nut on the controls is not an issue. That would be terrible.

Like I said earlier in this post, most folk don't actually understand bedding. Good to have the article by McMillan handy.

Well, I finally made it out to the range to put a few bullets downrange after tightening the action screws. As recommended, due to having just cleaned the gun, I shot 4 times with some cheaper ammo and the "group" was probably 4 inches...this made me nervous that I hadn't made any headway towards getting the gun to shoot. After letting the barrel cool, I shot a group with some Win Ballistic Silver tips and it grouped just over an inch! That was a great relief. Next I shot a group with some Fed Trophy Copper and it was even better at right about an inch group! This was also shot in a 10-15 mph direct crosswind. That was all I needed to decide that now I can start developing a load for the rifle and might buy a Bell and Carlson for it as well. Thanks to everyone on this forum who posted good advice on how to fix this problem.

See, all that fuss over nuthin.

Yup, turns out the action screws were the issue. I'm probably gonna get a B&C stock for it now in the next couple months to drop some weight for backpacking.

Shocking that tightening the screws worked! Now you're swapping stocks so bedding the last one would''ve been a waste of time, money, and effort. I'm glad everything worked out.

Bedding is never a waste of money that is pure ignorance. If a screw came lil loose the rifle would still connect if it had happened unknown hunting, and if you by a b/c you definitely need to bed!

Bedding a waste of time and money? Har. Spoken by a true internet rifle ninja.

BTW, what do you bed your rifles with? Oh wait. You can't and therefore don't recommend it because it's all hogwash. Right?

Sure he may need to bed a B & C, wouldn't surprise me at all. Lets recap since there's some reading comprehension problems here.

Rifle wouldn't group.
Optic is tight to the rifle.
Barrel gets cleaned every time out.
Action screws MAY have been loose.

Several of us suggested 1. Tighten the action screws. 2. Foul the barrel, and see what those two steps produce. AFTER checking off those two steps reevaluate. And I'll be damned if it didn't turn into a 1" rifle. Now if he were going to keep the stock it may shoot even better after bedding this stock, but he is not keeping this stock, he is switching to a B & C. The barreled action, and optics are not a problem that's a relief. So if he gets a new stock there is no way it is a bad idea to bed the new stock or bed this stock if he keeps it. The point was and is that bedding is step 3. Don't put step 3 in front of 1 and 2.

Ole BMD...I bet all salesman love watching you walk through the door

That shows how lil you know about me, not to mention what the hell does that have to do with bedding?

Step one to me is make the tool the best it can be so when and if the shot of a lifetime happens everything is as good as can be for the loose nut behind the trigger. I figure if it is worth doing it is worth doing right!

Has to do with throwing money at a problem instead of troubleshooting it. We get it you buy yourself the best of everything, then post it for us to gawk at. some of us are more proud to do stuff on our own instead of shelling our Benjamins like were the Donald Trump of the THF.

I don't have to throw money at that problem cause I know to bed my rifles and have not thrown a a dime at it dumb arse so again tell me how much you know?

I know I don't need to bed my rifle to shoot livestock at 63 yards. Other than that not much

Lol you know so little about me it is comical.

But thanks for the personal attack, I'll put it in my scrapbook

Live stock. Lol again continue to show your ignorance.

Anyways, back to the OP. Glad logic held on and you could figure it out on your own, as opposed to spending money on something you're replacing.

Step one for me is bed.

why wouldn't you want a bedded rifle. Why wouldn't you want a action that will be consitant with its stock 100% of the time no matter if your at 80% humidity or 10%, or riding on a 4 wheeler or carring your rifle with a pillow

Only one way to make sure all things are consistant and not moving and that's bedding it.

Atleast that's my opinion

Really personal attack? Look who jumped in and started in on me and I damn sure didn't pull your string? And because I put in 8 years managing a lease and we take great bucks that qualifies as hunting livestock think I care my daughter shot a zebra here in Texas? You jealous or what? I don't give a damn what you think about me or the trophies on my wall but pretty sure you can't call em livestock. Lmao. Guess guys shouldn't throw money your way to solve their problem with their stand or whatever they need welded. Nice sales pitch.

SMH

I just have a problem with assuming a stock isn't bedded properly. I believe if it isn't broke don't fix it. Even Mr McMillian said 'that a clue to whether a stock should be bedded is whether the rifle would shoot 1 MOA groups'. You can do what you want I'm going to shoot mine first.

I am not nor have I ever disputed that. What if the barrel was chit? And won't shoot no matter if it is bedded or not, and a guy doesn't want to pay for another barrel to be shipped then a smith to do the machining. Maybe a guy would rather sell the rifle and buy one that will shoot. By all means bed it, as mentioned I have one bedded rifle, the 7 Rem Mag, and I didn't ever shoot it until it was done including bedding. But the OP had a good rifle that should've shot but wouldn't. Loose action screws? Well fix that first and see if it gets better, and it did.

Same thing as all of the tail lights go out on your truck. Do you check the fuses first or replace all the bulbs?
[/quote]

Step one for me is bed.

why wouldn't you want a bedded rifle. Why wouldn't you want a action that will be consitant with its stock 100% of the time no matter if your at 80% humidity or 10%, or riding on a 4 wheeler or carring your rifle with a pillow

Only one way to make sure all things are consistant and not moving and that's bedding it.

Atleast that's my opinion[/quote]

So jg you saying bedding is better or not? You kinda talk out both sides your mouth.

You're really not getting his point are you...incredible

Nice post from a libtard. Who PMd you it was time to add nothing of value? One of the quintuplets?

I get his point I don't agree with him. I comprehend English just fine. You just keep shooting your unbedded rifle

We know you want to

How did you mess the quotes up? Lol

99% of new rifles will shoot with factors barrels. Now "shoot" is a broad term.... to some shoot means 1.5 moa, some sub moa, some or 1/2 Moa.

But for the vast majority it means under 1.5.

With that said there is only one way to make sure a rifle stays inline no matter what out side factors may come up. And that's bed it. Bedding never hurts and in will only improve accuracy. The amount of improvement depends on lots of factors (stock type, etc).

Bedding in a manners or mcmillian won't raise its consistency like it would a wood or plastic stock, but still will help improve and gaurd against any outside bumps, heat, etc

Why go through the money and time for a load work up on a platform that doesn't have built in safe gaurds of not performing consistanly?

Why would you assume any are? Remington, Savage, TC, Ruger bed theirs? Winchester is the only one that makes a cursory attempt at it.

You've obviously never done it hence you don't recommend it nor understand it. Next up will be why not to bed the B&C because it has a bedding block.

Somebody please regale use with that logic.

That makes entirely too much sense BoBo starting to sound like Donald Trump

Nicely put. Exactly what I've posted since day one.

BMD- post pics of the groups AFTER WE DISASSEMBLED your rigs cleaned barres and reassembled. They shot to essentially the same POI with different bullet weights and new brass. Not to mention different lots of powder.

All you non-bedding gurus hold on to your hair pieces because it actually works. Whodathunkit?

One a wood stock.... if you tighten them correctly in houston and then go to AZ for a hunting, they could end up loose... why?

Browning tries but consistancy in the process is lacking.

The mass mfg's don't do it to keep costs down. Plain and simple.

Just a friendly reminder.. I'll take this bet.

.300 win mag


Stock 7/08 bedded in b&c by Karnis as well as the .300 in McMillan bedded by Karnis, and the 7/08 group is with different oal and different bullet weights after all was taken apart and reassembled, think without bedding it would be same results. I think not!

Bedded is better. But when a pretty good rifle that should shoot won't shoot, bedding is not the first step to correct the problem. Not both sides of my mouth, you have not paid attention throughout. I've never suggested bedding is bad, and that it will hurt anything. Out of the box rifles now days shoot pretty darn well without bedding. So why wouldn't this one? Simple fix, loose action screws. Bedded or not no rifle will shoot with loose action screws.

What does a sucker rod fence built in winter look like in summer if they didn't use expansion joints?

A desucker rod?

The first step before shooting any rifle is addressing screws, bedding, FF, etc. You continue to say tightening screws then shooting and finding it won't shoot is the way to go. For a self proclained LR shooting guru you give no useful advice. Just admit it. You send someone a check for $5000 and tell them to build you one and the thump your chest about your 15lb rifle that shoot little groups. Nobody cares about your 15lb rifles. Any numbnuts can make something like that shoots.

This is about the OPs 8.5lb sporter and everyone else's sporter that is reading this thread.

It's painfully obvious your recommendations leave little to be desired.

The wave.....

Lets all play nice

It seems like on most forums I frequent, there's always an irritating somebody that has something to prove or needs the last word. What's all that about? Give it a rest Karnis.

This helps how?

A barrel of snakes.

OP, wasn't waiting from 40F weather to 100F weather to try this out.

I really don't get why everyone is so ticked about a suggestion made that cost the OP zero dollars.

AND IT WORKED!! WE WERE RIGHT!!!

Be men and accept that fact.

Now will the rifle shoot even tighter if it were bedded? Pretty good chance that is a yes. Especially in a wood stock that will expand and contract in various weather conditions. Go back and re-read that he is scrapping the stock. Why should he have bedded a stock he is getting rid of anyway. That makes no sense.

Reality is no mention of getting new stock til way late. And we can all agree that a properly bedded rifle is better than not.

I'll gladly take a beating from you. I've had my hands full. My wife was in a pretty nasty wreck. She's fine but the truck is totaled. Anyway I'm just getting back to this thread.

Let's shoot for sometime in June. Where do you like to shoot? What kind of beer do you drink? Wasn't planning in shooting against a competition shooter but I will make a showing.

Edit: BMD I tried to talk her into looking at a dodge but she's stuck on getting another ecoboost.

Sorry to hear about the wreck glad she is ok, I haven't really had any serious problems with my ecoboost, I am just a dodge guy that slips up from time to time and buys a ford

Fireman, I care about your 15 pound rifles. I dig em!

I've been ignoring you, and you are still insulting me, so I will reply to your dumbazz.

I'm not self proclaimed, I shot out to 800 yards yesterday, and the day before that, and three other times last week. You? I purchased a Savage 10 chambered in 308 Win, and learned to hand-load with it, and leared to shoot long range with it. Hit 1 MOA steel at 1K with an unmodified rifle. Then won CDI bottom metal at a rifle match. I inletted that Savage stock myself with my mill and file work. Then ordered a McMillan A-5. Once it arrived it had fitment issues, I corrected that myself, again, with files. Then decided I wanted more BC and more velocity and ordered an Obermeyer 6.5 mm with a 1:8.5" twist. My gunsmith who is a nice guy, unlike you, did the machining for free and centered to .0005" dual indicating. And I stood beside him through the whole process learning volumes about operating a lathe, since I also have one of those as well. When he needs steel fab work and welding done I do the work for him for free, so we trade. No internet order or phone call made on my rifles, and no $5000 bill for them.

I worked up the next load with 130 Bergers. Once the barrel broke in and sped up, I worked up another load with 140 A-maxes. And have shot that rifle with that load from 20F to 105F prone, seated, kneeling, offhand, and using what ever structure is available to make a shot. That action/ trigger now has 4000 rounds on it, and it's still going strong. "Any numbnuts can make something like that shoots" Yes you put an "S" on the end you're so smart. That is incorrect. I work up loads at 500 yards and see what a load not within the node of the sine wave produces, so you again are wrong. I am not explaining this to you, I am explaining this to anyone that is new that does not know you are full of chit.

You come on here and show how obvious it is how small of a man you are. And you threaten and insult anyone else that has knowledge on the same subject you do, a clear sign of insecurity. You invent the tales of your demented version of the truth that you simply fabricated from your mentally ill mind. You also make statements that myself, Chad, and Dave don't know anything since it is not your way. We do know what we are talking about, and we are not gathering this information from the internet and/ or books. The information we share is from the field; rifle range, and hunting. They are nice guys and very accomplished, and knowledable riflemen. They, and I, also provide help when someone asks for it. When a person makes a post here they are seeking help, and it is our choice to provide the help they seek. If what we contribute does not suit you, move on. Don't tell us we are stupid, and don't know what we are talking about, because it is simply a steady stream of lies.


Go away. A large group of people around here hate your guts and liver. I've already recieved PM's with rifle/ hand-loading/ optics/ and shooting questions that would've been asked publicly had it not been for the existence of Karnis and BMD ruining countless threads.

Why, thank you. They aren't all 15 pounds, just one

Really. And you think we haven't received plenty of pm's about you as well. You don't know me or Karnis. And who is getting upset now because we believe and will continue believe that bedding a rifle is always better than not. Sure that lil rant was really good for business

Please continue by all means...

Mine's only 3.5"...but it's as big a round as a tuna can.

Thats me. I shoot once and she pokes a hole where I want it and we are done. If I have to shoot a second shot I screwed up and I dont think I have screwed up since I was 15. But, then again, I am gifted.


Wait a minute. ........ mine is 4.5