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 California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
#117893
12/06/06 12:53 PM
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Joined: May 2006
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HWY_MAN
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Several environmental groups filed suit Thursday against the California Fish and Game Commission and the state Department of Fish and Game for continuing to let hunters use lead ammunition, which they allege poisons rare California condors.
The Natural Resources Defense Council, Physicians for Social Responsibility, the Center for Biological Diversity and the Ventura-based Wishtoyo Foundation, as well as a few hunters, sued the state on the grounds it is violating the federal Endangered Species Act by permitting continued harm to condors.
The plaintiffs maintain that many California condors die after feeding on the carcasses of deer and other wildlife killed with lead bullets or buckshot. Golden and bald eagles are also harmed by ingesting lead.
"This is not an anti-hunting lawsuit. It's about protecting the condors and working with hunters to find a common-sense solution" that doesn't include lead ammunition, said James M. Birkelund, an attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council.
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Would have provided a link, but it's now dead.
The most interesting part of this is the claim, it's not a anti hunting lawsuit.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117894
12/06/06 01:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Crazyhorse
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Flying into the face of a controversy is not new ground, so here goes.
It hasn't anything to do with anti-hunting. Check with the folks on the TFF, California banned the use of lead fishing sinkers several years ago, and I do not think they are the only ones.
This debate over the use of lead bullets or bullets having a lead core has been going on for 5 or 10 years now. The people that are pushing it have no problem that I know of with Barnes bullets, they are copper. That is why lead shot is illegal nation wide for waterfowl and from what I am reading and hearing, we are probably within a 5 year time frame for a ban on using lead shot to hunt doves.
So I am gonna have to go along with the concept that this lawsuit is NOT anti-hunting motivated, but is being pushed because of the ban that was brought about on the use of lead fishing sinkers. I mean there is a ban on the use of lead based paint, unleaded gasoline, the list goes on. JMO.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117895
12/06/06 01:17 PM
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The real problem for Condors in my opinion has nothing to do with lead, firearms, or man they are just being used as a "Patsy" or as leverage by the anti-hunting groups. Condors are a leftover from time's past. They are carrion eaters, just like buzzards or vultures, except they were design for much larger game than what's available now. That part of California where they exist is not the carrion producer it was several thousand years ago. They were used to feeding on much larger carcass's than deer or rabbits. Now they have to compete with the common and much smaller buzzards, vulture, ravens and crows, which are in such high numbers that it's not even a contest. They should have been extinct many years ago, if not for the intervention of man. We're doing nothing but prolonging their death or extinction. They are a doomed species, unless you want to raise them in a enclosure.
Last edited by HWY_MAN; 12/06/06 01:21 PM.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117896
12/06/06 02:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 595
DoNisUglyFat
Tracker
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Hummm we have large birds that eat big dead mamals and we have Guantonimo bay seems like there is a survival lesson here some where.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117897
12/06/06 02:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Big Orn
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It's a scare tactic...that's all.
Lead, a heavy metal, can and will kill an animal and/or humans...but it's not the killer folks make it out to be. The worse kind of lead poisoning comes in the atomized form - like being burned, releasing it into the atmosphere. That's why is was banned from comsumer-grade gasoline. Gasoline still contains lead, but typical consumers can't get it. Paints still contain lead, but for industrial use.
Lead shot/bullets are only a danger if an animal is shot with them, then it has to be a certain amount...and the animal lives. Yeah, it will eventually poison that animal, but I won't get into the effects surrounding that potential - too long and drawn out for this topic.
The animals that feed on carcasses of dead animals that were shot with lead will more than likely die of old age or at the hands of man or another animal before the lead even starts to build-up in their system. The process the body uses to leache lead works very efficiently, imho...and this includes all predators/scavengers. Unless an animal was shot everyday of its life and lived, then there's no way another animal can become poisoned by the lead in its body.
All this is what I know and should be considered an opinion since I have no doctorate degree in medicine, chemistry, or in biology.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: DoNisUglyFat]
#117898
12/06/06 02:45 PM
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HWY_MAN
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I find it funny that the carrion eating birds of TX, don't suffer the same problems. Quote:
and we have Guantanamo bay seems like there is a survival lesson here some where.
Gonna have to explain that one to me?
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117899
12/06/06 02:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484
Big Orn
great white gorilla
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Quote:
I find it funny that the carrion eating birds of TX, don't suffer the same problems.
There ya go. If a problem existed - ever - with lead shot/bullets, it would be worldwide, not just site specific.
From the time mankind developed a way to make wine and store them in oaken barrels (how long has that been?) they have sealed those barrels with lead.
I'm not downplaying the effects of lead-poisoning by any means - it does exist...but at the hands of extremists it has become a monster.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Big Orn]
#117900
12/06/06 11:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Crazyhorse
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Okay, since you folks can not seem to put 2 and 2 together, WHY DID IT BECOME FEDERAL LAW TO STOP USING LEAD SHOT FOR WATERFOWL!!!!
Because the birds were picking it up off the bottom of the waters they were feeding in and so it got changed to Non-Toxic shot only. Same with the ban that is being placed on lead fishing sinkers, it will eventually be a nation wide thing as will be a ban on hunting doves with lead shot.
Yes, Condors were engineered for extinction because they do not have mammoths and other huge 4 footed creatures to dine on.
Yes, this is happening in California, is that a real big surprise to anyone????
Is it a real problem, No, anybody wanna place bets on how it turns out?????
Until you have read and researched a situation, saying that is backed by any particular group means absolutely nothing if you do not have all the information.
This isn't new, this has been an ongoing thing since the mid to late 90's in California.
Are anti-hunting groups supporting it, probably, did they file the law suit, probably not.
Condors and any other of our large birds of prey or carrion eaters garner a lot of sympathy from humans in general. Stop and think back on comments that have been made on here in regards to someone not being nice to GHO's. Those folks don't raise poultry, and they don't know why anyone would want to hurt an owl. Think of an Owl as a Coyote that flies.
Maybe the forum needs a current events topic area so that members can find out what is going on in other states that may or will end up affecting us in Texas.
As for who would support such a ban, hey, waterfowlers lost their right to use lead shot several years ago. If they don't big game hunt, why would they care if people lost the right to use bullets containing lead, fisherman lost their right to use lead sinkers, why would they care.
We need to stop being so paranoid about the anti-hunting forces, and worry more about the UNINFORMED PUBLIC, and their perceptions of what is happening.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117901
12/07/06 02:59 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Txduckman
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Make it illegal, just make Bismuth or Hevishot whatever affordable!
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117903
12/07/06 01:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,972
Team Hillbilly
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Team Hillbilly
I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left.
Paralyzed Veterans of America
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117904
12/07/06 02:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Crazyhorse
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Okay. you posted those links, now, did you actually go to those links and check them out? How about the NRDC.org link specifically? As for the link about the Physicians, how many Drs. do you know that hunt?
At no point did I say that it was a necessary thing for them to pass such legislation, but I am noticing more and more that TEXANS want to operate under the premise that everyone in the country feels the way we do about things, AND THEY DONT. They probably should, but it ain't happening, not now, not ever.
This is similar to the recurring battle in Wisconsin over allowing a Mourning Dove season. That gets fought tooth and nail every year. A lot of folks that support not having a season are hunters that grew up thinking of doves as songbirds that run everything else but Blue Jays off the bird feeders.
All I want to see is hunters here in Texas to begin opening their eyes and look into these news tidbits like this Condor issue fully, and not just jump to the conclusion that it is all anti-hunter backed.
Let me ask this question and I would like to see some honest straight forward answers.
If legislation were presented before the Texas House and Senate, to Either ban the use of Assault-type rifles as a hunting arm, or ban the use of All centerfire rifles as hunting arms, how many of you would throw the Assault Rifles under the bus????
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117905
12/07/06 03:47 PM
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HWY_MAN
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Quote:
Okay. you posted those links, now, did you actually go to those links and check them out?
No i just posted them for giggles.
Of course i checked out those links, I also check out who funds those non-profit organizations, to see who's really behind the legislation. More often than not, you find a unexpected surprise.
Quote:
As for the link about the Physicians, how many Dr's. do you know that hunt?
It stated these were the organizations that filed the suit, and a few hunters. I have no idea how many if any of the Doctors belonging to that organization are hunters. Do you?
Quote:
All I want to see is hunters here in Texas to begin opening their eyes and look into these news tidbits like this Condor issue fully, and not just jump to the conclusion that it is all anti-hunter backed.
And i want the same thing. I just like to make sure they get the whole picture, and are fully aware of who they're dealing with.
Quote:
If legislation were presented before the Texas House and Senate, to Either ban the use of Assault-type rifles as a hunting arm, or ban the use of All centerfire rifles as hunting arms, how many of you would throw the Assault Rifles under the bus????
I'm not much into what if scenarios, but I'll give it a shot.
First off i do not own any high capacity semi- auto rifles nor do i personally have a use for one. But i can say, i would fight any legislation tooth and nail that would try to ban any firearms that are currently legal to own and use.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Big Orn]
#117906
12/07/06 04:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Big Orn
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It looks like we're getting into the soapy part, up that slippery slope, where the real deal is trying to get covered up with BS. FWIW, I was just pointing out that anyone or group that want's to use Bait-and-Switch tactics to maneuver themselves into position to sway legislation are nothing more than witchdoctors. It happens all the time in politics, ya know...  
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117907
12/07/06 05:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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I have never been surprised by anything in politics, either by the politicians, their issues, or who is funding them.
Getting the whole picture would be nice, do those links give the whole picture, or just the picture they want seen and you are drawing conclusions from what evidence is available.
Also, if you will go back and re-read my question, it had nothing to do with OWNERSHIP of Assault-type rifles, it had to do with either banning them as a hunting arm or banning ALL centerfire rifles from hunting.
Right now it is legal to own lead shot loaded shotgun shells, they just can not be used for waterfowl hunting.
Now, how many on here if faced with that situation would throw the Assault rifles under the bus, so they could keep the ability to hunt with their other rifles????
Again, people in other parts of the country do not react the same way that we think we would, and what those folks do, can come around to bite our butts if we are not paying attention. Will the anti-hunting element profit or realize their goals, Yes, in the end they probably will. Can we delay that happening, Yes, if we stay informed and work at keeping the people around us informed on these issues. JMO.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117908
12/07/06 05:58 PM
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HWY_MAN
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Quote:
it had nothing to do with OWNERSHIP
I guess if you go back and reread my post you will notice i also said use.
Quote:
legal to own and use.
Last edited by HWY_MAN; 12/07/06 05:59 PM.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117909
12/07/06 06:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484
Big Orn
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Quote:
Can we delay that happening, Yes, if we stay informed and work at keeping the people around us informed on these issues. JMO.
That's going to be the hard part, imo. With so many attention-getting loopholes to point at they can use legitimate concerns to further their cause...sort of like this "lead shot" matter - or, like you've pointed out: the assault rifle washout.
You are right, though, that at first whack, a person, uneducated about a subject, is apt to throw the babe out in the wash water.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117910
12/07/06 09:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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Your dancin around like a crawdad with a bass on his tail Mike. The question was not about ownership, the question was to either ban Assault-style rifles from hunting, or all centerfire rifles from hunting.
You could still take the AK-47 or SKS and go out and target shoot all day long everyday, you just could not hunt with it.
Or you could own 100 of the things and just set and look at them, but it is not multiple choice, you have two options on the ballot, ban Assault-type guns, or ALL centerfire rifles, PERIOD. How many folks would throw the Assault rifles under the bus so that they could still hunt??
What is so hard about that question, PLEASE TELL ME??????
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117911
12/08/06 01:15 PM
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HWY_MAN
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Quote:
If legislation were presented before the Texas House and Senate, to Either ban the use of Assault-type rifles as a hunting arm, or ban the use of All centerfire rifles as hunting arms, how many of you would throw the Assault Rifles under the bus????
I'll try this one more time but i may need a little help. I'm having trouble trying to figure out why you can use the word (use) twice in your statement. Yet when i use it once in my response, I'm accused of dancing around the question. Unless your dictionary has a different definition of the word "use" than mine does, i believe they have the same meaning. Now when i used the word the word use in my statement, it was to describe any legal use of the rifle, whether it be hunting, target shooting, or home defence, which i felt answered your question. What did you think i meant?
Sorry i didn't explain myself better, maybe from now on we need to keep our responses to just yes or no.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lea
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117912
12/08/06 04:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,744
psycho0819
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Quote:
Okay. you posted those links, now, did you actually go to those links and check them out? How about the NRDC.org link specifically? As for the link about the Physicians, how many Drs. do you know that hunt?
At no point did I say that it was a necessary thing for them to pass such legislation, but I am noticing more and more that TEXANS want to operate under the premise that everyone in the country feels the way we do about things, AND THEY DONT. They probably should, but it ain't happening, not now, not ever.
This is similar to the recurring battle in Wisconsin over allowing a Mourning Dove season. That gets fought tooth and nail every year. A lot of folks that support not having a season are hunters that grew up thinking of doves as songbirds that run everything else but Blue Jays off the bird feeders.
All I want to see is hunters here in Texas to begin opening their eyes and look into these news tidbits like this Condor issue fully, and not just jump to the conclusion that it is all anti-hunter backed.
Let me ask this question and I would like to see some honest straight forward answers.
If legislation were presented before the Texas House and Senate, to Either ban the use of Assault-type rifles as a hunting arm, or ban the use of All centerfire rifles as hunting arms, how many of you would throw the Assault Rifles under the bus????
My physician is a hunter. Has NRA stickers all over his office, and told me if anyone doesn't like it there are plenty of other doctors in the area. That is the level of conviction a person should have when dealing with anti's, IMHO.
I am not a person to look at all sides of a story and do what's best to satisfy everyone . My brain just won't work that way. There is right and wrong. Sometimes I don't like whats right, but must accept it. There are a lot of people in this world who don't look at it this way. They are the ones who sneak these laws and restrictions thru disguised as nature loving legislation. I am always sceptical of any law coming out of a liberal state. These people have zero morals and are, in most cases, outrite liars. They wil do anything to advance themselves. I trust my instincts before anything they say, even if backed up by so-called facts.
The truth is there is only one way to save the condors. Open a hunting season. I'm serious here. Look at what hunting has done for any other species. Whitetail are present in record numbers. Elk herds are growing all over the country. Bear are nusance animals now in alot of areas. Turkey are more prominant than they have been in hundreds of years. Once the hunting industry gets a hold of a species it grows. If they charged a million dollars to kill one Condor, that money could be used to help the remaining birds. I wonder how long it takes them to raise a million? Let that get started and we will have private ranchers breeding these things by the thousands and small children wouldn't be able to go trick-or-treating any more. We'd still incourage the cali-kids to go tho, less future liberals.
And about the assault gun vs centerfire ban. The question does not make sense. It would never be put on a ballot to begin with. I think that it is a question that would never be asked, and therefore has no answer. You know that most people would give up hunting w/so called assault weapons. Whats the catch here?
The whole lead thing is blown way out of porportion IMO. Buzzards, Ravens, and Crows should be falling by the hundreds across Tx. if lead is as deadly as they claim. I know very little of the science of this matter. But I intsinctively distrust anyone who is for this legislation, due to the geography involved.
Most of us here grew up with lead paint, black mold, asbestos ins, and second hand smoke. I'm not saying none of these things are dangerous to us. But way too many people blow this out of porportion to advance their own twisted ideas and agendas. And it will only get worse. Just think, all these people who are spouting all this crap are influecing a whole new generation of young people. These youngster will grow up thinking what they learned as a child is right. I fear for where our country will be in thirty years. And it will all happen from the inside out. The more we concede to their twisted ideas, the more we promote this decay.
Jay
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without conviction.
The end of the world began the day it was created, and life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lea
[Re: psycho0819]
#117913
12/08/06 04:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 45
quatin
Light Foot
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I'm with crazyhorse on this one, if it means much. I can't take the "just because antis are with it means I should be against it" stance. It makes some sense that you shouldn't spread lead out where it doesn't belong. Lead is not an immediate poison, it stays in your body and continually builds up like mercury. Quote:
I think that it is a question that would never be asked, and therefore has no answer.
That's not the point he was making he's just asking a hypothetical question. Also, don't be so quick to judge, how many times have you heard "Why does anyone need an assault rifle to hunt?" I've heard quite a few anti-gun sympathisers echoing this question.
Last edited by quatin; 12/08/06 04:51 PM.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lea
[Re: psycho0819]
#117914
12/08/06 05:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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Have you taken the time to read or research anything about Condors and their physiology????? Do you know how many Condors are in the wild in California?? Do you know how many young Condors are raised yearly????
California Condors, should have became extinct at the samee time as Mammoths and Sabre Toothed Cats.
This is a law that is being voted on in California, that until further notice is only going to effect California.
The ban on lead shot for waterfowl is nationwide, it was brought about by the same type of reasoning that is being used to ban lead bullets and the bans on lead fishing sinkers.
And as for the assault rifle question, 1, yes that could appear on a ballot, and 2, you answered the question, moist folks would kick the assault rifles under the bus before giving up hunting.
A person can look at anything from all siudes, as long as they keep in mind, that no matter what decision is made, it will adversely affect someone. That is life. Nothing is ever done that pleases 100% of any population.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117915
12/08/06 05:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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I ain't meaning to pick on you Mike, but to me and the way I am asking this question, there is only a yes or no answer.
It is either yes, you would vote to ban the USE of assault rifles as a huning arm, thereby keeping the right to hunt with normal centerfire rifles.
OR
No, you would be willing to give up the right to hunt with ALL centerfire rifles regardless of their design.
Again this legislation has nothing to do with an individuals right to own or even use an assault type rifle, it only deals with the restriction of one form of use.
As I said, we can use and own lead shotgun shells, we just cannot use them to hunt waterfowl. I am presenting the same type situation or would everyone prefer the state or TP&W to mandate a ban on assault rifles for hunting???
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#117916
12/08/06 05:43 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,055
HWY_MAN
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No problem CHC, we may not always agree, but we seem to get along pretty well. 
Last edited by HWY_MAN; 12/08/06 05:47 PM.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: California “State sued over failure to ban lead am
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#117917
12/08/06 06:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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Isn't that the beauty of the whole thing. We can disagree with each others opinion, yet be willing to defend the idea that we are entitled to our opinions, without taking it or making it personal. What a concept. Happy Holidays to you and yours, from me and Lora B.
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