Again, who's complaining? WE know what to expect from Fannin county deer. Maybe you are right, archery only would help everywhere, so let's just do that statewide?

Here comes some staggering numbers. I hope you all are ready.

Lets say I bag 5 does this season. Lets look at what happens to the "herd" for the following 5 years and assume a doe has a life span of five years, has 1.5 fawns per year and of those, 30% are bucks.

Bleow is the dramatic effect my one time 5 doe harvest had on the overall health and sustainability of the herd.

2009 Harvest
5 Does

2010 - Animals never born based on my 2009 harvest
Fawns - 18.75
Bucks - 5.625
Does - 13.125

2011 - Animals never born based on my 2009 harvest and loss of reproduction in 2010
Fawns - 33.75
Bucks - 10.125
Does - 23.625

2012 - Animals never born based on my 2009 harvest and loss of reproduction in 2010 and 2011
Fawns - 56.25
Bucks - 16.875
Does - 39.375

2013 - Animals never born based on my 2009 harvest and loss of reproduction in 2010, 2011 and 2012
Fawns - 67.5
Bucks - 20.25
Does - 47.25

I am one person and in one years hunting reduced the amount of future bucks by over 20. Another way to look at it, I took out 67.5 deer just by killing 5 does in 2009.

Now, where's the logic???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Ummm...be smarter than P&W, and don't shoot five does?

I get your point, I was just throw'in it out there. Maybe a shortened general season would be a better idea?

Why??? TPWD knows best dont they. Just like with the 13" rule.

BTW: My dates are off by a year. 2010 should be 2011 and so forth.

I'll ask again...was Fannin County allowing anterless harvest in the past? If so, under what schedule? The current 2 per season/ 4 day opportunity is in line with a lot of counties where numbers are stable.

I don't think I missed your point, but maybe you missed mine, and the other fella that mentioned this above....the AR and Doe issues are seperate issues, but do relate to some level, the fact is that TPWD is allowing you guys to kill too many Doe and limiting your buck selections, thus making a Doe kill more easier. We have a lease in Menard, no restrictions, and its a pain to get the lease guys to kill the Doe, last year I killed 4 and an old 10. I agree there are flaws with AR's but I can also see some reason to have regulation, just as said before as they have with fish, they have minimum length requirements on fish as to not take all the young fish, so I think this is an attempt to get on those same line.


Sig, I really haven't heard the health of the herd come up in the AR argument so I am not sure what point your making here, I think the general consensus of hunters would rather kill a big buck than a small buck, so I think the idea is for the greater good, like I said I know there are many flaws, and I probably like you do not like the idea of governmental regulation, i get that completely, but the fact is, with hunting you need some, hopefully in 20 years we will all look back and say, well they did a good job....

Thats why I like the idea of government aided WMA's and Co-Ops.

to me that sounds stupid because my area there are way too many does. Why not shoot anything for 2 years, the area is already overpopulated, and with does not bucks so why would u not shoot any deer including does for 2 years. In my area it would make sense to not shoot bucks for 2 years and just only does. We need alot less does.....WE HAVE TOO MANY DEER so y would u not kill anything for 2 years. STUPID. But then again every area in texas is different

It was by permit only and few if any permits ever issued.

I think things should be left up to the landowners... if they feel the ARs would benefit them then they can go with it, if not, then they don't have to. I see a lot of people who want them simply b/c they cannot control what their neighbors shoot, in which at that point it isn't an AR issue...it's an acreage issue.

I didn't miss your points, I just didn't agree.

The AR and Doe issues are not separate, TPWD joined them, not us. (On a personal note, I haven't killed a doe in an AR county since AR's were started, and AR's don't really impede my deer hunting, I just don't think they are a good idea)

"overall health of the herd" was one of the original mandates for TPWD when starting AR's; It was preached "age structure, overall health of the herd, low fawning rate" and that it was "not about antlers".

Of course everyone wants to kill a monster buck, but I think the consensus would be they'd rather kill a deer rather than not... especially in North East Texas.

I don't know how antler growth or age would affect health of the heard unless it could be proven that younger deer sperm are genetically inferior, I think I'm with ya there, and I know think we can get to a point where we all have ample chance to kill a good buck instead of the old sayin of well if i don't kill the basket ract the neighbor will....I understand rather killing a deer than not, I'm the same way, BUT I also gave up bucks for a few years for the chance to see and kill big bucks.

I think the idea that AR's are in place so that means I go kill 5 Doe is just out of line, TPWD needs to regulate Doe harvest to fit the population no matter if AR are in place or not, maybe more so in AR counties, but I think, but where I've hunted all my life (madison County not Menard) Doe have been heavily regulated since I've been hunting, We've always felt like we had too many doe and too much regulation on killing them....I wouldn't kill 98% of the deer that are less than 13 anyway so to me it just keeps people from killin the 98% I would pass up to allow for another year

It's hilarious that people complain that it's the AR's fault because they are seeing fewer deer, but then continue to fill all their doe tags and then wonder why they aren't seeing more deer!

DUH!....Could be it's not the AR's at all, that are the problem.

It's true that you can't fix attitudes by changing laws, and it's beyond logic that AR's alone decrease a deer herd, but I guess you have to blame something other than the fact that you are shooting too many deer just because you can.

But wait... TPWD says I am allowed that many does. Surely it's for the good of the herd or they wouldn't allow it... Ain't I right JimBob???

My family has been hunting Lavaca(15 years) The deer herd is at it's all time high for these years. More deer then ever before and larger bucks. Before the AR started in this county, we could shoot two does and two bucks during rifle season. Before the start of the ar restrictions you would be lucky to see deer over 13" anywhere, now it's normal to see 16"+ deer all over the county!!! My job keeps me on the roads quite a bit and you would not believe the deer I see in, Lavaca, Colorado and Wharton county. To see a 15-16" deer now is like seeing does. A person just don't flinch anymore, 15 years ago, we would think we saw the largest deer in the whole country!!! The reason one could see less deer on a given place is just to many to list with the ar regualtion being one of the last ones I would blame for not seeing any deer!!

BUT....... now let's be sure, according to the state, Antler Restrictions are not about antler growth...

I agree that we would all like to see bigger deer antlers. But until someone can prove that happens, why should we stop hunting at all? And if less pressure makes the antlers bigger with age, then let's stop all hunting for three years, and the woods will be filled with Boone and Crockett Bucks!

I cannot speak for whats in other counties, and it may be that it's great for Lavaca or Colorado.

But if the stinking deer in Red River County don't have the genetics to get to be big deer, you can let them walk until they are old enough to buy beer....and they still won't be "trophy deer".

Ar's are about older deer and older deer make bigger antlered deer. PERIOD, there is no disputing that. AND trophy deer are different to anyone, to alot of people like me 130-140 class bucks are trophies and to some 170-180 class deer are trophies

This junk about killing too many does cracks me up. You have a choice how many does you shoot. Just don't shoot does if you want the population to grow. You can manage that. Provide feed and don't shoot them. They will breed.

to me a trophy is any deer that is 5.5+ (free-ranging....HF, is a different story). It could be a masive 6pt, it could be a freak daddy, but I fully expect our 5.5yr old 8+pt deer to be in that 140" range...which is alright for deep east tx deer.

Anyone know where I can get a scope with a measuring tape in the cross hairs so I can be sure that I shoot a legal deer?

Maybe TPWD website?

Oh no, but then why would the state issue you all those tags then if you're not supposed to use them?

The AR's are the cause for the decline don't you realize that, and not the fact that people want to shoot all the does on their place just because the state says they can, because of X amount of tags.

Here is a hint! They give you more tags because some areas have more does than others, and maybe you need to kill some off, and if your place doesn't have that many does, then don't use all the tags, and try a little management on your own without the state having to tell you how many you should shoot.

Maybe some people can't restrain themselves, or know how to manage their herd, so it's easier to blame AR's for their problems! Pretty sad!

All I can say is that Houston county is at least 3 years (I think more) into the AR program. And I see WAY more deer and better deer now than I did 3 years ago. 3 years ago I would be lucky to see a deer in a week, now I am seeing deer everyday. Call it what you want, but I like the AR's.

And that's the majority of the counties under the rule.

I've said it before and again, if you don't have deer, it's not the AR's that is the problem, but still those who argue blame it on the AR's.

I'm still waiting on someone to explain how they came to that reasoning and explain it as how not shooting younger bucks and letting them walk causes your deer herd to decline in numbers.

Just doesn't have a logical explaination!

there is a diagram in the TPWD handbook, you should tape it to your blind....its really not rocket science

Yeah, I don't shoot all the deer I am legally allowed to shoot either. I kill only the amount of deer I think I can and still produce more deer. I only killed one deer off my place last year. This year I think I need to kill at least 3. I plan on killing 2 does and one buck this year. Total on my place, not just me.