For TX whitetail deer hunting mostly in pasture settings, in terms of clarity and performance??

I liked this one. It is very clear and the reticle is illuminated and uncluttered.

https://cameralandny.com/shop/athlo...%202.5-15x50%20-%20AHMR%20SFP%20IR%20MOA

I have a Leupold VX3 2.5-10 on my .270. Duplex reticle. Very simple, and good clarity. Priced right at $499, but if you watch them, maybe you can find one on sale.

Great choice for your needs.
Unclebubbas Leupold if you want to buy "American" made.

I went through this process over the past week or so, for $500 I would either take this or unclebubba’s vx3.

https://www.leupold.com/mark-3hd-3-9x40-30mm-p5-mildot

Mostly in a pasture setting? What’s the typical shot distance?

Under 200 yards

I think good glass and something that will hold zero is all you need. Lots of scopes like that under $500. It's more complicated as you try to extend distance.

I almost cringe to say it but for me with the stated purpose it's really Leupold, even the freedom line. Meets your criteria and hard to go wrong. So much so I got one for exactly your usage. I actually wasn't too concerned with made in America, always a plus wasn't a must here. I wanted as light weight as practically possible.

For some reason many on the THF have gotten away from Leupold over the years. I think it’s for five reasons.

One, the trend for the past few years is more towards long range shooting, which requires a scope that holds up and tracks perfectly long term with frequent adjustments. Can’t be made cheaply in the USA, or even remain at a marginally competitive price point.

Two, Vortex is probably their strongest competitor in this market. As far as I know they only build in or buy from the cheapest places that can meet a set of standards. Many if not most of them are Chinese, you can’t compete against the cost of slave labor. There are others, i.e. Optisan, “all our products are proudly made in China, highest quality at a price point, etc.”I read that as “proudly made by slaves to destroy our American competitors.” You can call me a xenophobe, it won’t hurt my feelings.

Three, even Leupold has been forced to use imported products and materials in their rifle scopes. At least Leupold rifle scopes are still built here. Some of their binoculars are Chinese. Everyone has to offer something Chinese to remain competitive and most offer nothing made in USA. So a lot of people have given up on searching for any optics made in USA.

Four, when it comes to imports, a lot of people view all imports as the same. But there are plenty of free world imports from our allies, and many of them are Asian imports. Like Japan, a lot of people think they build the best optics. I am not an expert on optical quality, I can’t argue with that. But Japan is still a free world market. Even Taiwan, we had some quality imports from Taiwan that suddenly dried up. That is because China is basically at war with them. As far as I know, not an actual war with weapons but Taiwan imports on Amazon dried up for awhile because of trade agreements and etc with China. They can still be had but the supply does not meet the demand. Still proced competitively.

Five, woke politics and labels. I think modern anti-american labels. To some people it’s not patriotic to buy American. They call it xenophobic, lol.

If you ask me, Leupold is the clear leader at providing quality at a price point, in every category except long range marksmanship. The imports all dominate the market here.

As long as I have a choice, I will not buy anything from a company that does not offer at least SOMETHING made in USA, unless they do not source from China. It is a hell of a big compromise but we put ourselves in this position. You vote with your money.

Leupold, Burris, Trijicon, and a few others still build some stuff in USA. Other higher end imports like Swarovski, as far as I know, don’t offer chinese stuff so I will still take them into consideration if I have the $$$. Japanese stuff like SWFA still on the menu, probably the best buy for the money in long range marksmanship. I don’t have a problem with imports, I would prefer made in USA, China is out of the question. Just IMO.

Grand standing, long winded, ranting, whatever you want to call it, I don’t care. Somebody has to say it.

Yall really think the cheap leupolds are made in USA?

They are designed, machined, assembled in USA but probably imported materials.

The cheap spotting scopes and binos are Chinese.

Did you know that all lead used in the United States since 2013 has been recycled or imported? It’s true. Our regulations are so strict, lead manufacturers can’t turn a profit. Prior to the EPA crackdown in 2013, over 70% of the world’s lead came from Galena, Missouri.

It is no wonder it is so hard to get good glass and lenses made in USA. Before long, ALL of our materials will be imported. Not because we don’t have resources, but because of EPA regulations forcing companies to import or go out of business.

The vx3 is.

I was impressed with Leupold vx freedom low light capability. Just put a 3-9x40 on my wife’s rifle and did a low light test against my other scopes. Beat the b&l 4200, Nikon & weaver. My athlon ares was pretty much tied. I was not expecting it from that scope. Excellent eye relief too.

I’ll take one for my .358 winchester build. Thanks

I just got tired of sending Leupolds back in for repairs, specifically the first gen CDS dials were crap. I always loved Leupold but that first gen CDS was designed like they didn't care so I moved on from them.

I don't think they are a good value anymore. Like Vortex, they tried to produce too many different optic lines and models at once to fill every niche and quality suffered across the brand.

I gave Leupold enough money over the years. Now I typically look for optics made in Japan.

They struggle to remain competitive. It is near impossible to do it in a market dominated by imports. I can cut them some slack on that, as long as the warranty remains strong. But i will probably avoid the $400 CDS, thanks for the tip!

I will know how the MK3 HD line holds up before long.

They built their reputation on hunting scopes that were lightweight, had good glass, held zero and had a great warranty. Sometimes they could be difficult to sight in because of the adjustments but once sighted in, they held zero.

For the OPs purposes, I I think a traditional Leupold makes a lot of sense.

I agree

I’d suggest starting with an SWFA 6x for $300 and save the $200 for more practice ammunition. The SWFA will track correctly if you decide to dial and will hold zero. The leupold will do neither of these but yes leupold has a great warranty. Like posters above I got tired of sending mine in for warranty work every year and sometimes they would fail a few weeks before a hunt. I’ve shot my 6x scopes on targets out to 700 yards in mountains in Arizona with no difficulty. The only scopes I like better are the SWFA 3-9 or maybe the now discontinued Bushnell 3-12 LRHS.

If you want better glass and more of a set and forget scope with amazing glass I’d suggest a 8x56 Schmidt and bender. Sometimes you can pick them up used for $5-$600 if you look around.

You left off #6..........more and more people are under the false impression that you need high BC bullets and MILS/MOA reticles and dials to kill something. I've lost track of the number of animals I've killed with a 7Mag/VX6 combo that's been dragged to Africa 6 times, MX a couple, and a bunch more places. It's performed perfectly. Lots of people rely on reading the internet instead of actually testing/proving to themselves what actually works.

You left off #6..........more and more people are under the false impression that you need high BC bullets and MILS/MOA reticles and dials to kill something. I've lost track of the number of animals I've killed with a 7Mag/VX6 combo that's been dragged to Africa 6 times, MX a couple, and a bunch more places. It's performed perfectly. Lots of people rely on reading the internet instead of actually testing/proving to themselves what actually works. [/quote]


Dude, that is totally me. I came back full circle and end up with a 3-9x33 with a straight duplex. Specifically I borrowed my brother's old vx-ii ultralight and didn't give it back to him. He wanted a little more power for his young boys so I got him a freedom 4-12. I love this setup now as a no frilld kinda minimalist.

Jgraider, that is a fair assessment in my opinion. Myself included.

The original leupold scopes were never made to be dialed on repeatedly, I don’t think very many were made that way from any of the manufacturers before the current trend in long range shooting. But the leupy’s hold zero. The old school leupy’s with low profile caps didn’t even have clicks. Just a image of a dial around the adjustment screw for reference. Meant to be zeroed and left alone, turned with a coin. Just adding clicks to it does not make it good for repeated adjustments.

Some of you might know by now, I am an airgun enthusiast. Nothing breaks scopes faster that repeated adjustments except the reverse recoil of a spring piston gun. I have a leupold FXI 4x28 on a breakbarrel that has outlasted everything else I’ve tried on a springer. It does not have click adjustments but I had no problem sighting it in. I set it at 25 yards and I don’t fool with it.

I don’t think the CDS scopes were made with regular adjustments and long range competition in mind. I bet they would hold up fine if zeroed, verified at distance, and left alone until the time to make a longer shot on game.

I have read complaints about SWFA SS scopes, too. Mushy clicks and wandering POI. And that’s a scope made to be dialed. When you turn out a product at a price point, there will be some issues in some scopes.

I would wager that most critics of Leupold for not tracking and returning to zero also do not have experience with Leupold’s current crop of mil-mil scopes. I am seriously thinking about sending mine out for a Cyclops review to see if it passes the dj turntable test.

I should add to that, i have seen burris, leupold, trijicon, aimpoint, eotech, and elcan all fail in the military under normal operating conditions. These were all touted as the toughest sights they could build. And everything with a fixed parallax setting has parallax error at 25 yards.

I think you can crank all the dials you want and hope for the best but the most reliable method is a first focal plane scope with a MIL or MOA reticle. Forget the dial and use the reticle for hold overs, especially out to most hunting distances.

I think you are right. Only thing I would add is FFP needs an illuminated reticle. I can't see most of those tiny reticles on low power. I've been a hold over shooter my whole life and probably never will change.

I'm gonna test my theory on my next scope. FFP Illuminated Reticle.

I've got experience with Leupold's current crop of Mil/Mil scopes.

And I have seen more than one of them fail to track, and fail to return to zero.

How do they measure up to the others? Specifically, at a price point.

I am asking you specifically because i know for a fact they all eventually fail to track and return to zero. Depending on use. But your experience in dealing with multiple customers, who probably baby their rifle as a prized posession, how do they hold up?

And how much more or less commonly do people pick Leupold over the others?

It does matter to me. But what matters to me more, is even if it does not return to zero, will it hold zero after you sight it back in.

*edited*

J.G. Also, what have you used that has held up the longest of them all?

It's already been said. The most consistent scores are usually made in Japan

I already know your thoughts, and i am not asking for the country of origin for good glass. I also know for a 100% fact, if you dial on the turrets enough the very best scopes out there will fail to return to zero at some point.

If I could pick any one scope specifically for long range shooting it would have a horus reticle. But they are $$$ and about the ugliest thing I have looked at through a scope. Maybe some time behind one would change my mind.

But at the risk of highjacking this thread, I want to know what tracks best and lasts longest in J.G.’s personal experience. Because he’s got a better idea than any of us, what has good enough glass and yet also tracks the best and lasts the longest, of everything he has used.

My personal opinion? If it is clear and holds zero, and the reticle can take me to the limits of my chosen cartridge in the field, how well it tracks is not very important. If I was a competitor it might change my opinion.

But I bet JG knows better than any of us, what tracks the best and lasts the longest, at any price point.

Also I do nit discount your opinion or scott’s or anyone else’s. I been following Scott on here awhile too. But I asked JG.

Anyway ya’ll know what I think, I gotta back on up out of this one. If you can afford it you should buy American when available. Lots of great scopes in the $500 range from Leupold. Unless I were looking specifically for a extended long range scope that is where I would look. Otherwise it would be a Horus reticle probably burris. I admit i am not the long range expert. Ya’ll have a good un.

Burris tracks and returns to zero better than Leupold. I've seen some + $2K Leupolds fail to track and return to zero.

The scopes weren't banged around. They were mounted to a rifle and the rifle sitting on a bipod and rear bag. They didn't do what they were told.

My longest in service scope is an SS 5-20X. Raw aluminum is showing all around the turrets. It has had a hard life, and has never been sent in for repair.

I've got three scopes with NF on the side of them. Two scopes have bounced between many, many rifles without a failure. The third scope is sitting on a 300 Norma Mag, that's dialed out past a mile and come back to 100 yard zero several times.

Thank you J.G.

As has been already mentioned. Around $1K the best money spent is a NF SHV 4-16X.

Everyone worries about light transmission. Most all of them will get everyone past legal light on a game hunt. If you don't want to dial it, don't. Hold for elevation and wind, and squeeze the trigger.

Remember Bryan, if you are going to use your scope to EITHER dial OR use holdover, you will have to gather the info on your ammo to run ballistics chart.

I've also had great experiences with the Nightforce SHV scopes which JG recommends above.

Fisherman recommended the SWFA 6x. It has a cult like following on some other hunting forums for its reliability, simplicity, durability and cost.

A fixed 6, can do a whole lot of work.

A fixed 10 can do more. But can be a hindrance for a hunter. The inside 300 yard shots can lack field of view.

You got me looking hard at that 1x8 Nightforce. Or maybe that 2.5x20! THAT is a do it all scope. Edit- i mean that 2.5-20x50. I don’t think anybody else makes that.

I am sorry for derailing this thread.

I am down to owning zero Leupold scopes. But may try the new Mark4 HD as I need a lighter scope for a NRL hunter rifle. Handled one this week and it does have some nice features.
Vortex AMG is USA made and the razors are Japanese so I put them is same category as Leupold / Burris and others that have lines from different countries.
I do avoid companies such as Arken and others that are just all Chinese but it’s hard to get completely away from Chineisum crap.

It is hard to face the truth. I will take my light weight leupy and accept it for what it is, zero it and use holds. Save for a Nightforce down the road. Not gonna hate on a SWFA SS either.

My $ .02 worth....

As Bryan said, I try my best to not buy anything mfg in the PRC.

I haven't seen a single new production Leupold that the adjustments would reliably move the POI 1/4" making them a bitch to zero. However once zeroed they seem to hold zero fine.

If I had to use it you couldn't give me any FFP scope!!! Why would you want the reticle to get larger on high magnification and smaller on low magnification????

I don't trust the clicks on any CDS type scope to consistently repeat. If you need long range capability simply choose a SFP with a BDC reticle and shoot on it's highest magnification setting.

The older Bushnell 4200 scopes mfg in Japan were some of the best under $500. scopes ever built. Now all Bushnells are mfg in PRC. It's getting harder and harder to find optics mfg in Japan because so many people buy based on price rather than quality.

I've had good luck with Burris scopes mfg in the Philippines, but it looks like Burris is also going PRC for their new products. These are still some of the Philippine mfg Burris Droptine and Fullfield II out there for sale at fair prices.

I know it's out of the $500. budget, but the Japan mfg Trijicon Accupoint 3-9x40 in the $700. range and the Swarovski Z3 3-10x42 in the $900. range are great scopes. I have several of each and they have all been reliable.

I just sold a Leupold MK 3HD for about that price. It was extremely clear for the $ and I'm a glass snob. Good FOV and little to no CA, great clarity and colors.

As for POI moving exactly 1/4" with each movement of the dial, not sure I ever really noticed this with any scope. They all (including my Leupolds) moved or were very close to 1/4". When zeroing many times it's not exactly 1/4" of incremental movement I need and after a shot or two, I need one more click. No big deal, as long as the next trip out it's still on zero, and mine always are. That would be Burris and Leupold.

BDC reticles get a bad rap here, unfairly. All they need is to be properly verified at distance and know your POI for each mark. I used one for years, effectively.

I went to Leupold's CDS system 8 years ago. I gave them perfect data to build the dials. I dial it often. The most was on 9 stages, fired about 45 shots and it was perfect on hunting shots in wind over about a three hour period. I made a 550 yard shot on a coyote with it last year as my longest shot on an animal to date. On another morning coyote hunt I was 3 for 3 from a little over 220, to right at 400 yards as I recall. Mine works, but it's on a great rifle, reliable ammo and a good RF bino's.

$500.00 scope, I really like my Burris Signature HD, 3-15 x 44.

If I ever need a new scope, I'm looking at Trijicon. You're the second reliable recommendation I've heard on Trijicon in a week when discussing scopes in this price point.

Here's my issue with BDC. In SFP it is only accurate at one magnification. If you always have it on that magnification while hunting, and you have verified the dope at distance, I agree that they work well. However, while hunting, I have on more than one occasion, had the scope on the wrong magnification, and used the BDC to take a shot. Of course I missed. IMO, it is too easy to make a mistake on the zoom level with the BDC in the field. That said, I have a Burris Veracity with BDC in FFP. Love that scope. The BDC is accurate regardless of the zoom. It just so happens that my .308 load lines up almost perfectly with the BDC hashmarks. Now, put that scope on a flatter shooting rifle, or a slower, lower BC round, and I would not like it at all.

With anything, you have to use it properly. Like I said, I don't use it anymore having moved to the CDS. But when I did it worked. Most often I didn't need it and when I did my target was way out there, and scope was on max magnification.

One thing I want to mention about BDC scopes. If you have Strelok or something similar, and if you hunt at a set magnification (8x for me), you can easily determine what distance each line represents. You don’t have to shoot on max magnification.

Something else…even if you have BDC or just a standard reticle, holdover is what I used for decades, and still do with a couple of rifles. My 270, when sighted in at 200 yds will drop 7” at 300 and 20” at 400. The 220 Swift numbers, when sighted for 200 yards are 5” at 300, 15” at 400. Those are drops that a decent hunter can use without problems. Of course knowing the distance is rather important, and if you suck at reading the wind (as I do), good luck. Most of my shots are inside 300, so the drops are easy to determine, and the wind hasn’t ruined my day in a while.

BDC reticles get a bad rap because they are a marketing gimmick. Just like mil dots in a 1/4 moa scope, that are not true mil within the mag range of the scope.

I can get by on a Leaupold fine duplex just as well as a BDC reticle, plus have a very fine aim point for precision. That’s why I chose it for my air rifle, you can’t consistantly kill stuff cleanly with an air rifle without a high level of precision.

But some BDC reticles are better than others.

A scope with half mil subtensions is awesome because you can zero a half mil high at 100 and you basically have a 200 yard point blank range or better with most deer cartridges, and about a mil high give or take at 300. A BDC scope, maybe or maybe not. If they come with a diagram of the scale of the reticle at a given magnification, sure.

I guess you haven't shot long range very much.

Zero a Mil scope perfect at 100 yards.

There is zero purpose in zeroing a Mil scope high at 100 yards.

That was dumb, Mr. Wilson is surrounded by champions and bad azzes of the shooting world in all aspects

It was for sure the absolute best value I could find in the $500 range. Even my wife commented on the quality. She does not even care about my guns and stuff at all. I didn’t lead her into it I just said just come over and check it out. Soon as she looked through it her eyes lit up, and she understood why you pay the $ for good glass.

Thanks again for that scope

I’m pretty sure he has his own 1400 yard range as well.

You're way too comfortable in your very narrow lane.

Look i am the one that eats crow around here, i guess foot mouth is more contagious than i thought. I would not challenge Mr. Bill Wilson or J.G. on much nor would i pile on against them one or the other.

I chalk it up to one factor, “YMMV”

You should have stopped before you put them both in the same sentence.

You got me there. That don’t make it ok to pile on. Just like the people that pile on against Leupold might make you think it’s a POS, leupold makes some excellent rifle scopes.

I don’t think any of us were piling on Leupold, just sharing our experiences. I’ve never owned anything VX5 or higher. My experience is with their cheaper lines.

I will say my buddies old Mark 4 4.5-14 never had an issue and it was on a SCAR 17. I was surprised since the SCAR has a terrible reputation for destroying scopes.

I’ve got Leupold scopes that are clear and function perfectly, that have likely been on Earth longer than some of the folks on this thread.

The relationship of reticle size to target size is the same throughout the magnification range on a FFP scope. If the reticle is .1 Mil or 1/4 MOA thick at 5X, it is .1 Mil or 1/4 MOA at 10X, 15X, 20X, 25X. The reticle does not cover more target when the magnification is turned up. The relationship is always the same.

SFP means a reticle subtends at one magnification. Whatever setting that is, half of that magnification equals double the value. If the SFP scope subtends at 20X, then at 10X a Mil or an MOA in the reticle is actually 2 Mil or 2 MOA. In that case, whatever someone's corrections are, they must cut them in half.

There are plenty of times of year, we cannot use full magnification because of mirage being too heavy. The best scopes in the world may not cut through it. Turn down the magnification to regain clarity.

BDC meaning the makers that make BDC? Without good wind holds? Or BDC meaning Mil or MOA?

I read a quote today, that applies to you pretty well.

"Sometimes the people that watch you the closest, hate you the most. So give em a [censored] show."

Mind over matter.
I don't mind, and you don't matter.

You have an over inflated sense of yourself. Watch you? Hate you? You sound like a child. You're kind of hard to ignore when you comment on my posts and start cussing and name calling just because I have an opinion that is different than yours. I think it's, "Don't start none, there won't be none"?

Yep i think the best value in optics around $500 or less is the THF hook-up. No doubt. If you can deal with the squabbling, that is.

It’s entertaining. It’s kinda like watching COPS or springer.

You are the instigator.

This exact post proves it.

If you do want FFP the EuoOptic sale is still going on the XTR II. The 3-15 is $539 all in to your door. I think it’s still the best bang for your buck going right now. 5-25 is still in stock for $70 more.

Wrong. Telling you that you have a narrow focus isn't instigating anything, unless you have thin skin.

There are other posts and threads. You've called me a punk, shady, etc......you respond to my posts quoting me stating I am wrong and then promote your ammo, call me a troll when I correct you, use the "F" word, you just can't handle it when I correct you when you're wrong or disagree with you. It always ends with you acting foolish. I understand, you have a part time business to promote with every post and can't afford to be wrong when part of your schtick is to be an expert to potential customers. Just stop with the discrediting, name calling, respectfully disagree......as for the cussing, I don't mind. I cuss like a sailor, but not here. It will get you banned, something you know way more about than I do.

That’s a steal. Almost as good as the THF hookup

That is a good deal. That 5-25 needs to be on my turtle rifle.

XTR2 had some of the worst glass at its price point. It had repeatable tracking and good reticles but the glass was just atrocious

Vortex Viper PST Gen II is on sale for $569

Link Here

Just bought a Trijicon Accupoint with the green dot, love it.

Think it was $635 ish out the door. (B&H photo special order)

I don't plan on spinning for long range targets so can't comment on tracking.

The knobs have great clicks, not mushy, very definite.

One thing leupold does right is the scope caps, absolutely love those things.

Don't sleep on Burris!!

Have a couple Accupoints and they are awesome! Needed something for a guest gun and snagged an old school 3X9 40mm Huron from EuroOptic's Scopelist. Was just over $350 delivered and the glass is every bit as good as the Accupoints. Pretty much set and forget, but can still dial it back if needed.