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I have a theory on quail decline. #4995625 02/27/14 02:42 PM
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therancher Offline OP
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I'm not an avid quail guy so this may be a common theory, I've just never seen/heard it before. My place in Uvalde has proven this theory to me yearly since I bought it in '06.

I always start the season off with a healthy population of quail. Mostly Bobs. I have MLD so we deer hunt from oct 1 thru the end of feb. The corn feeders run constantly during that time. And cover gets skinnier all thru the season around those feeders.

When the hawks migrate in, there are always one or 2 (I have actually seen 5 and 6) hanging out at each feeder. I believe this happens more or less all over the state. I know they don't each eat a quail a day, but they are there every day and do get quail pretty often.

Before laws were enacted to protect raptors most ranchers shot hawks on sight. And the older ranchers never stopped doing that even when laws were enacted. The old guy that owned my ranch before me shot every hawk that would give him a shot. And quail were so good back then that word got out and W was scheduled to come hunt until Fla screwed up the 2000 election.

Anyway, I know there are many other contributing causes to quail decline. But it's my personal belief that deer feeders become hawk, bobcat, fox, raccoon, and yote feeders much more often now than they did years ago. And since raptors are the predator we can't legally control, they are taking the lions share of quail.

Last edited by therancher; 02/27/14 02:44 PM.

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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #4995672 02/27/14 03:10 PM
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I think that's probably at least part of it. Another factor could be alflo(not sure if that's the correct word) toxins associated with corn. 20 years ago there weren't corn feeders on every 50 acre patch of land like there are now.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #4995688 02/27/14 03:16 PM
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Good thinking, but there is a decline where there are no feeders.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: bill oxner] #4995859 02/27/14 04:26 PM
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I see a ton more hawks than when I was a kid. And you are right, they used to be thinned on a regular basis. I wonder about raccoons. I see tons of them-and coon hunters used to keep them thinned. All contribute to a fragile birds extinction. Drought, fragmentation, chemicals.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #4996004 02/27/14 05:12 PM
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Well,now they have machinery that gets right along the fence lines to fertilize and kill bugs.therefore, there are no bugs for the quail to eat and less cover for them to hide in.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: bill oxner] #4996025 02/27/14 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
Good thinking, but there is a decline where there are no feeders.


Yep. But there are more raptors in those areas too because they aren't shot on sight nearly as often. And I believe like most and I'm sure you agree that there are several if not many contributing factors.

I'm just noting one I haven't seen discussed before. It's also not very PC to lay blame on natural predators that are protected, and used to be more tightly controlled.

I also agree with the previous poster who mentioned raccoon populations (they have shot up in areas where feeders supplement them). Coyotes and raccoons used to be controlled by a robust fur demand. Not so much anymore.

I think the most consistent quail decline contributing cause is that our co-natural predators are out predating us. They have no seasons or bag limits.

Last edited by therancher; 02/27/14 05:21 PM.

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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #4999569 03/01/14 04:46 PM
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I propose a new raptor hunting season. aim


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Jtmeeks] #4999585 03/01/14 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Turkeyslayer1221
Well,now they have machinery that gets right along the fence lines to fertilize and kill bugs.therefore, there are no bugs for the quail to eat and less cover for them to hide in.

I think we are the big problem for the decline . The modern farming now days

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #4999778 03/01/14 09:47 PM
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I agree that quail hunters are a lot of the problem. Most are not conservation oriented and over hunt the low numbers as quickly as they get stronger. IMHO
researchers getting funds to research talk about
loss of habitat
bad deer corn
increased use of checmical
GM seeds
diseased pen raised quail
preditors
climate changes and less rain
over hunting

Whats a Quail to do


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: shooterwalter] #5000183 03/02/14 03:27 AM
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More efficient farming techniques might be a large contributing factor where there's farm land. But it doesn't explain it in the vast areas of native pasture in Texas.

Also, I can tell you from many years of experience that no matter how many quail we kill each year, the quail pops on my ranches follow the area trends. I don't believe we ever over harvest and we kill a lot of quail. But, our predator competition stays on them 24/7/365.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5000596 03/02/14 03:28 PM
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Article in DMN this morning cites a study that the vast majority of the quail mortality rate is raptors. So I think you are onto something.

Parasitic eye worm cited as big reason for decline also.

Keep in mind mortality rate is just one factor.


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #5000695 03/02/14 04:17 PM
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Thanks NP. I'll have to check that out.

I have some feeder pics that guy/gal would like to see I'll bet.

Is there any link or more descriptors to the article. I haven't been able to successfully google it. What I have been able to find is recent articles quoting studies from '62 all the way back to '43 on raptor predation. Talk about worthless data...

Last edited by therancher; 03/02/14 04:42 PM.

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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5001096 03/02/14 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Thanks NP. I'll have to check that out.

I have some feeder pics that guy/gal would like to see I'll bet.

Is there any link or more descriptors to the article. I haven't been able to successfully google it. What I have been able to find is recent articles quoting studies from '62 all the way back to '43 on raptor predation. Talk about worthless data...


Sorry, was headed out. It was in this morning's paper. May not be in the online edition.


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5001130 03/02/14 09:02 PM
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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Sniper John] #5001163 03/02/14 09:42 PM
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Thanks Sniper. So, if you believe the data generated in the studies in the '40's and 60's, raptors are killing 100% more quail today than they were back then (the studies I saw from back then estimated that 25% were killed by raptors).

Two reasons IMO is because they are drawn to coverless deer feeders (that they weren't drawn to in the 40's and 60's), and the fact that raptors are not only protected, but that rancher's/landowners actually don't shoot raptors nearly as much anymore. Laws never stopped any of the old ranchers I was ever associated with.

Add to that fact, the fact that the fur industry is almost nonexistent now, that yotes and bobcats, coons and foxes are at all time high populations, and I think the answer to declining quail numbers is pretty obvious.

I would be interested to know how they determine raptor kills in all those studies.



Last edited by therancher; 03/02/14 09:53 PM.

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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5001205 03/02/14 10:09 PM
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I was at our place this past week and their were lots of hawks working all over the ranch(wish I knew the bread, they had white band around the tail feathers). A couple were giving the prairie dogs hell. Ground owls numbers were increasing too and I think I saw a Mexican eagle.

FWIW - for the last 4-5 years we get decent numbers right up to October then BAM their numbers get cut by 70%. I also think the ice storms back in December may have put the hurt on them as well.

There was a time when our Blues coveys were 50-100 birds and you could see 30 coveys in a day....not anymore. frown


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Tbar] #5001303 03/02/14 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tbar
I was at our place this past week and their were lots of hawks working all over the ranch(wish I knew the bread, they had white band around the tail feathers). A couple were giving the prairie dogs hell. Ground owls numbers were increasing too and I think I saw a Mexican eagle.

FWIW - for the last 4-5 years we get decent numbers right up to October then BAM their numbers get cut by 70%. I also think the ice storms back in December may have put the hurt on them as well.

There was a time when our Blues coveys were 50-100 birds and you could see 30 coveys in a day....not anymore. frown


Doesn't that timing correspond to heavy raptor migration into Texas?


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #5001358 03/02/14 11:48 PM
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Although we have a lot of red tails and harriers at Big Lake. The most damaging hawk in south Texas at feeders is the harris hawk. These guys hunt in groups and come to the feeders when they go off. I've seen as many as 6 surrounding my feeders.

http://platform.votigo.com/fbcontests/sh...ion/65351/65351


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5001361 03/02/14 11:50 PM
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We were covered up with quail this year. I felt guilty about reporting all my hunts. Our pastures had help from Quail Coalition and Jim Willis. Here's what he's done in our area;



http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/...ail-1764954.php

CAT SPRING — The sparse beauty of the tall grasses and sand plum trees at WW Ranch makes this land near the San Bernard River appear unchanged from a century ago. But the still life can be deceptive.

When hunting buddies Jim Willis and John Webb purchased the 225-acre ranch in 2000, the overgrazed property had become "a wildlife desert," as Willis phrased it. The pasture couldn't support anything but cattle.

So, they replaced the so-called improved grasses commonly planted in the area with native varieties, such as little bluestem and switchgrass, to restore habitat for bobwhite quail and other birds. Scores of them now nest in the grasses while the ranch's cattle graze nearby.

What is happening here is a vision that many see as the coastal prairie's salvation. Biologists blame the loss of habitat, primarily from development and modern farming practices, for a 75 percent drop in Texas' quail population in the past 30 years.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5001378 03/03/14 12:01 AM
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I also believe that raptors take a lot of quail. On my place here there were no corn feeders 2 yrs ago on not many raptors to speak of. Now I have corn and protein feeders and have seen raptors working the quail on a regular basis. Coons also are bad due to feeders, but I have worked on the coons/bobcats/coyotes over the last 1.5 yrs now. Coons are way down in numbers so it will be interesting to see what happens with the quail. I do not hunt them right now and have good ground cover with no cattle at this time. All raptors and predators have increased since the late 60's to early 70's. Predator were trapped down in high numbers each year due to a good fur market. A kid could make some really good money trapping back then. The quail have gone down in numbers starting about the same time. The one thing that has increased tremendously in the past decade are wild hogs. I know a guy who put out 100 fake quail nests on his ranch in Atascosa County in the early 2000's. He used trail cameras to monitor them and he also checked them on a regular basis to see if they had been hit or destroyed. At the time he was doing this the early numbers showed that well over 60% of the fake nests were hit by wild hogs. On my place wild hogs were terrible when I got here. I have trapped off 47 now and there is very little sign of hogs using my place like they had been and any new fence will be net wire. I put in one mile of net wire on my south side and it helped slow them down. I am sure the neighbors are working on the hogs also. So I will be interested to see what happens in the future with the quail here with the varmint work and hog control I have been doing over the past 1.5 yrs.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5001519 03/03/14 01:29 AM
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I have talked with several people in our area about the amount of hawks we see. Many years ago it was a rare sight to see one, we would even stop and try to get a picture. Now they are a daily sight. I have a red-tailed that flies one of my feeders several times every morning looking for easy pickings.
Although they are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, they could use some thinning out.

These hawks are on the list, as well as many other raptors.

HAWK,
Broad-winged
Cooper’s
Crane
Ferruginous
Gray
Harris’s
Hawaiian
Red-shouldered
Red-tailed
Roadside
Rough-legged
Sharp-shinned
Short-tailed
Swainson’s
White-tailed
Zone-tailed


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Simple Searcher] #5001665 03/03/14 02:43 AM
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I sat in a deer stand one evening and counted 7 different hawks at one time patrolling a field.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: bill oxner] #5001882 03/03/14 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
We were covered up with quail this year. I felt guilty about reporting all my hunts. Our pastures had help from Quail Coalition and Jim Willis. Here's what he's done in our area;



http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/...ail-1764954.php

CAT SPRING — The sparse beauty of the tall grasses and sand plum trees at WW Ranch makes this land near the San Bernard River appear unchanged from a century ago. But the still life can be deceptive.

When hunting buddies Jim Willis and John Webb purchased the 225-acre ranch in 2000, the overgrazed property had become "a wildlife desert," as Willis phrased it. The pasture couldn't support anything but cattle.

So, they replaced the so-called improved grasses commonly planted in the area with native varieties, such as little bluestem and switchgrass, to restore habitat for bobwhite quail and other birds. Scores of them now nest in the grasses while the ranch's cattle graze nearby.

What is happening here is a vision that many see as the coastal prairie's salvation. Biologists blame the loss of habitat, primarily from development and modern farming practices, for a 75 percent drop in Texas' quail population in the past 30 years.

Not only does that provide food. It provides cover. I agree that native grasses ungrazed will provide great habitat for food. But it also provides great cover. Deer feeders draw quail to areas with horrible cover. And leaves quail totally vulnerable to predation from raptors. If youre lucky enough to have land without deer feeders... thank your lucky stars.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: stxranchman] #5001901 03/03/14 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I also believe that raptors take a lot of quail. On my place here there were no corn feeders 2 yrs ago on not many raptors to speak of. Now I have corn and protein feeders and have seen raptors working the quail on a regular basis. Coons also are bad due to feeders, but I have worked on the coons/bobcats/coyotes over the last 1.5 yrs now. Coons are way down in numbers so it will be interesting to see what happens with the quail. I do not hunt them right now and have good ground cover with no cattle at this time. All raptors and predators have increased since the late 60's to early 70's. Predator were trapped down in high numbers each year due to a good fur market. A kid could make some really good money trapping back then. The quail have gone down in numbers starting about the same time. The one thing that has increased tremendously in the past decade are wild hogs. I know a guy who put out 100 fake quail nests on his ranch in Atascosa County in the early 2000's. He used trail cameras to monitor them and he also checked them on a regular basis to see if they had been hit or destroyed. At the time he was doing this the early numbers showed that well over 60% of the fake nests were hit by wild hogs. On my place wild hogs were terrible when I got here. I have trapped off 47 now and there is very little sign of hogs using my place like they had been and any new fence will be net wire. I put in one mile of net wire on my south side and it helped slow them down. I am sure the neighbors are working on the hogs also. So I will be interested to see what happens in the future with the quail here with the varmint work and hog control I have been doing over the past 1.5 yrs.


Agreed. I want to see the results too.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5002046 03/03/14 01:39 PM
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Out here one big reason is lack of mesquite control. In all of the years when we had high populations ranchers could afford to keep the mesquite canopy at around 25%. Now it averages about 80%.
Where mesquites are thick native grasses and ragweeds don't grow hence no feed. Quail also require sunshine in t he early morning to warm up. Without it they die very easily of low body heat.

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