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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5006721 03/05/14 08:16 PM
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Great thread here. Everyone brings up good points and it's promising to see y'all come together and share first hand knowledge of what you're seeing at your places. The next question then becomes "what can we do about it."

We had good quail numbers this year at our place. Not quite the best, but very good. A couple of things we do to help them is this. Whenever we are out there, all varmints are shot on site unless it is going to screw up your hunt. We keep traps out often so we are constantly catching and destroying these animals. The other thing we do is take sacks of milo and go around the ranch where we have located coveys and pour some out under brushy areas where quail will have good cover and will be able to eat safely away from predators. We also usually mark those bushes with flagging tape so that we can consistently pour milo in the same area for them. There has been a lot of talk on here seeing hawks near feeders. It sounds like the quail are coming to the feeders to eat on the corn, but the hawks have figured that out. If you put the milo in the safe zones, it gives the quail an option besides going to the feeder.

Those two things have certainly helped us maintain our population.


Originally Posted By: LandPirate
Yeah, don't listen to me. I'm just an idiot.

Originally Posted By: East
Lol. Duckbill that was funny!

Originally Posted By: thecoach
The dude up top has already taken lots of bone before this deer, both mule and whitetail.
Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: bill oxner] #5006772 03/05/14 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
We were covered up with quail this year. I felt guilty about reporting all my hunts. Our pastures had help from Quail Coalition and Jim Willis. Here's what he's done in our area;



http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/...ail-1764954.php

CAT SPRING — The sparse beauty of the tall grasses and sand plum trees at WW Ranch makes this land near the San Bernard River appear unchanged from a century ago. But the still life can be deceptive.

When hunting buddies Jim Willis and John Webb purchased the 225-acre ranch in 2000, the overgrazed property had become "a wildlife desert," as Willis phrased it. The pasture couldn't support anything but cattle.

So, they replaced the so-called improved grasses commonly planted in the area with native varieties, such as little bluestem and switchgrass, to restore habitat for bobwhite quail and other birds. Scores of them now nest in the grasses while the ranch's cattle graze nearby.

What is happening here is a vision that many see as the coastal prairie's salvation. Biologists blame the loss of habitat, primarily from development and modern farming practices, for a 75 percent drop in Texas' quail population in the past 30 years.


Bill I met a fella in Cat Springs once that was big into quail habitat.. his place was very nice and he said they are doing pretty well... I had to take him a gun that the business I worked for raffled off. That country is really nice.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5006784 03/05/14 08:53 PM
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I belonged to Quail Unlimited for awhile but dropped out. Good outfit, they are mostly geared to improving quail habitat. If you don't do it right you can spend a lot of money for nothing. They don't have fire ants up north but their quail numbers are down so I think maybe fire ants might be part of the trouble but not the whole story. I know it sounds crazy to drag muskrats into this issue but they are multiple like mad and for their numbers to drop- must be some reason. Fur prices are back up but for years the fur was so cheap no one trapped. Most furbearers eat eggs, small birds, etc.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Dave Scott] #5006938 03/05/14 10:09 PM
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Here is something I found on habitat, it was written in 2005, but still relevant.

http://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/fileadmin/user_upload/docs/misc_PDF/Quail/WhereHaveAlltheQuailGone.pdf

They studied and research this problem from every angle, they concluded that the 'Right' habitat is the most important rise/decline in quail populations.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: Dave Scott] #5007027 03/05/14 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dave Scott
I belonged to Quail Unlimited for awhile but dropped out. Good outfit, they are mostly geared to improving quail habitat. If you don't do it right you can spend a lot of money for nothing. They don't have fire ants up north but their quail numbers are down so I think maybe fire ants might be part of the trouble but not the whole story. I know it sounds crazy to drag muskrats into this issue but they are multiple like mad and for their numbers to drop- must be some reason. Fur prices are back up but for years the fur was so cheap no one trapped. Most furbearers eat eggs, small birds, etc.


I think QU has gone under, and rightly so. They were mostly a south east outfit and presided over the biggest outline decline in history. Next cam QF and they didn't do much for Texas quail. We now have quail coalition in my area. They are showing some good results but its all on private land. They raise a lot of money but it goes right back to private land. That's a big problem in Texas.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: bill oxner] #5007352 03/06/14 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I hunt near the goose hunting Capitol of the world. Hawks can make a good living on crippled geese in my area.

Goes along with my "good rabbit years are good quail years" theory. The more other prey animals there are, the less pressure on quail.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: BOBO the Clown] #5007360 03/06/14 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
I personally feel its a combo of ariel and ground predators.

Two big things banning of DDT and loss or softening of fur market/goverement trapping.

Banning of DDT and protection has brought back the ariel predators to all time highs. The soft fur market and less trapping has brought back high numbers of ground predators (skunks, yotes, coons, foxs, bob cats, feral cats, etc)


Couldn't agree more. Couple that with the fact that all the old ranchers who shot raptors on sight (regardless of laws protecting them) are gone, and you have a huge raptor problem.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: duckbill] #5007381 03/06/14 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: duckbill
Great thread here. Everyone brings up good points and it's promising to see y'all come together and share first hand knowledge of what you're seeing at your places. The next question then becomes "what can we do about it."

We had good quail numbers this year at our place. Not quite the best, but very good. A couple of things we do to help them is this. Whenever we are out there, all varmints are shot on site unless it is going to screw up your hunt. We keep traps out often so we are constantly catching and destroying these animals. The other thing we do is take sacks of milo and go around the ranch where we have located coveys and pour some out under brushy areas where quail will have good cover and will be able to eat safely away from predators. We also usually mark those bushes with flagging tape so that we can consistently pour milo in the same area for them. There has been a lot of talk on here seeing hawks near feeders. It sounds like the quail are coming to the feeders to eat on the corn, but the hawks have figured that out. If you put the milo in the safe zones, it gives the quail an option besides going to the feeder.

Those two things have certainly helped us maintain our population.

That is an awesome idea with the milo!


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5007385 03/06/14 02:16 AM
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To those with the thought that land fragmentation is an issue, i don't know how to explain the great quail populations in Alabama when my dad was a kid 75 years ago. Small farms was all it was then and now.

Last edited by therancher; 03/06/14 02:54 AM.

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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5007499 03/06/14 03:02 AM
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This is what I'm talking about with zero cover near the feeders. I doubt that the sandhills in this pic were in any real danger, and I know the harris hawk was just trying to shoo them away so the quail would come in... but it didn't stop them from showing the hawk some bluster.



The doves and blues in this pic have replaced the bobs that were visiting this feeder earlier this year. The blues are faster than bobs. And obviously survive the raptor onslaught in higher percentages.



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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: duckbill] #5007650 03/06/14 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: duckbill
Great thread here. Everyone brings up good points and it's promising to see y'all come together and share first hand knowledge of what you're seeing at your places. The next question then becomes "what can we do about it."

We had good quail numbers this year at our place. Not quite the best, but very good. A couple of things we do to help them is this. Whenever we are out there, all varmints are shot on site unless it is going to screw up your hunt. We keep traps out often so we are constantly catching and destroying these animals. The other thing we do is take sacks of milo and go around the ranch where we have located coveys and pour some out under brushy areas where quail will have good cover and will be able to eat safely away from predators. We also usually mark those bushes with flagging tape so that we can consistently pour milo in the same area for them. There has been a lot of talk on here seeing hawks near feeders. It sounds like the quail are coming to the feeders to eat on the corn, but the hawks have figured that out. If you put the milo in the safe zones, it gives the quail an option besides going to the feeder.

Those two things have certainly helped us maintain our population.


Excellent post, I've got an old friend (Don Gerstner 86) that is still breaking dogs and hunting daily. He believe it or not hunts on horseback and carries a sack of corn with him. Each find he drops corn at the nearest cover where they can feed safely. He's done it for years and like you feels it really helps. When it snow he has a route he drives and dumps feed based on the covey finds that season. Hope the old boy lives forever.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5008234 03/06/14 04:59 PM
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That first pic is pretty cool rancher!

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5008444 03/06/14 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: duckbill
Great thread here. Everyone brings up good points and it's promising to see y'all come together and share first hand knowledge of what you're seeing at your places. The next question then becomes "what can we do about it."

We had good quail numbers this year at our place. Not quite the best, but very good. A couple of things we do to help them is this. Whenever we are out there, all varmints are shot on site unless it is going to screw up your hunt. We keep traps out often so we are constantly catching and destroying these animals. The other thing we do is take sacks of milo and go around the ranch where we have located coveys and pour some out under brushy areas where quail will have good cover and will be able to eat safely away from predators. We also usually mark those bushes with flagging tape so that we can consistently pour milo in the same area for them. There has been a lot of talk on here seeing hawks near feeders. It sounds like the quail are coming to the feeders to eat on the corn, but the hawks have figured that out. If you put the milo in the safe zones, it gives the quail an option besides going to the feeder.

Those two things have certainly helped us maintain our population.

That is an awesome idea with the milo!

I was at a Dale Rollins "Beyond Dogma" seminar in the mid 90's that focused on deer and quail management and supplementing both. Rollins reported that milo was not the best quail feed since in their research (someone actually watched and counted this I am toldhammer) that quail needed to eat over 140 grains on average per bird of milo to fill their daily needs. In his opinion that was keeping the bird way to long in the view of raptors or hawks. He suggested things like soybeans or larger higher protein supplements to feed quail so they could eat less and get into cover quicker to keep pressure from predators down.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: stxranchman] #5008509 03/06/14 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: duckbill
Great thread here. Everyone brings up good points and it's promising to see y'all come together and share first hand knowledge of what you're seeing at your places. The next question then becomes "what can we do about it."

We had good quail numbers this year at our place. Not quite the best, but very good. A couple of things we do to help them is this. Whenever we are out there, all varmints are shot on site unless it is going to screw up your hunt. We keep traps out often so we are constantly catching and destroying these animals. The other thing we do is take sacks of milo and go around the ranch where we have located coveys and pour some out under brushy areas where quail will have good cover and will be able to eat safely away from predators. We also usually mark those bushes with flagging tape so that we can consistently pour milo in the same area for them. There has been a lot of talk on here seeing hawks near feeders. It sounds like the quail are coming to the feeders to eat on the corn, but the hawks have figured that out. If you put the milo in the safe zones, it gives the quail an option besides going to the feeder.

Those two things have certainly helped us maintain our population.

That is an awesome idea with the milo!

I was at a Dale Rollins "Beyond Dogma" seminar in the mid 90's that focused on deer and quail management and supplementing both. Rollins reported that milo was not the best quail feed since in their research (someone actually watched and counted this I am toldhammer) that quail needed to eat over 140 grains on average per bird of milo to fill their daily needs. In his opinion that was keeping the bird way to long in the view of raptors or hawks. He suggested things like soybeans or larger higher protein supplements to feed quail so they could eat less and get into cover quicker to keep pressure from predators down.


I can see the rational behind that. However, we are putting the milo in the area of cover. So whether they eat 40 grains or 140 grains, they are able to eat in the cover instead of out in the open. That does make me want to experiment with some different types of grain (larger in size) and see if that makes any noticeable difference. I'll report back on my findings in about 5 years.


Originally Posted By: LandPirate
Yeah, don't listen to me. I'm just an idiot.

Originally Posted By: East
Lol. Duckbill that was funny!

Originally Posted By: thecoach
The dude up top has already taken lots of bone before this deer, both mule and whitetail.
Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: stxranchman] #5008514 03/06/14 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: duckbill
Great thread here. Everyone brings up good points and it's promising to see y'all come together and share first hand knowledge of what you're seeing at your places. The next question then becomes "what can we do about it."

We had good quail numbers this year at our place. Not quite the best, but very good. A couple of things we do to help them is this. Whenever we are out there, all varmints are shot on site unless it is going to screw up your hunt. We keep traps out often so we are constantly catching and destroying these animals. The other thing we do is take sacks of milo and go around the ranch where we have located coveys and pour some out under brushy areas where quail will have good cover and will be able to eat safely away from predators. We also usually mark those bushes with flagging tape so that we can consistently pour milo in the same area for them. There has been a lot of talk on here seeing hawks near feeders. It sounds like the quail are coming to the feeders to eat on the corn, but the hawks have figured that out. If you put the milo in the safe zones, it gives the quail an option besides going to the feeder.

Those two things have certainly helped us maintain our population.

That is an awesome idea with the milo!

I was at a Dale Rollins "Beyond Dogma" seminar in the mid 90's that focused on deer and quail management and supplementing both. Rollins reported that milo was not the best quail feed since in their research (someone actually watched and counted this I am toldhammer) that quail needed to eat over 140 grains on average per bird of milo to fill their daily needs. In his opinion that was keeping the bird way to long in the view of raptors or hawks. He suggested things like soybeans or larger higher protein supplements to feed quail so they could eat less and get into cover quicker to keep pressure from predators down.


Dale Rollins was another one who presided over the biggest quail decline in the history of his area. I saw a graph of a similar study but they used calories. Western ragweed came out ahead of all the native seeds. Corn was on top of agriculture grains. You might still be able to find the chart somewhere on Google.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: sallysue] #5008568 03/06/14 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: sallysue
Originally Posted By: Turkeyslayer1221
Well,now they have machinery that gets right along the fence lines to fertilize and kill bugs.therefore, there are no bugs for the quail to eat and less cover for them to hide in.

I think we are the big problem for the decline . The modern farming now days


all the farmland creates wide open hunting for the birds of prey and since they have been protected populations have more the rectified themselves.


Originally Posted By: beaversnipe
Never used photoshop and never will. Photoshop is for liberals.


Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: 817cd] #5008582 03/06/14 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: 817cd
Originally Posted By: sallysue
Originally Posted By: Turkeyslayer1221
Well,now they have machinery that gets right along the fence lines to fertilize and kill bugs.therefore, there are no bugs for the quail to eat and less cover for them to hide in.

I think we are the big problem for the decline . The modern farming now days


all the farmland creates wide open hunting for the birds of prey and since they have been protected populations have more the rectified themselves.

Plus crops mature sooner and are plowed under sooner than they were back then. Fencelines cleared or non-existent today also. Less cover and less food source.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5008653 03/06/14 10:15 PM
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Actually modern farming is less distrubing then old school farming. We are much more consequence of soil erosion, so more hedges/rows are left, more crop residue via no-till drilling. Also up to last year CRP program had expanded 10x in size. To enter in the CRP program you have to have previous crop output history

Even with quicker maturing plants I don't see that as that big of an impact. Quail will use crop edges but sledom venture to the middle, espeically with in row crop plants. To open up top


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5008713 03/06/14 10:55 PM
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I very well remember when our gardens and fields would be full of quail chicks, pretty much all summer. But as it became common practice to use poison to get rid of pest insects the quail did not last long. No insects equal no quail. You can feed all the grain you want but it don't help the chicks like it would if we could figure out a way to insure they had bugs to eat when they are hatched. Pesticides put a hurting on the bees here too.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: arandy] #5010097 03/07/14 07:30 PM
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The pesticide argument doesn't fare well when you realize that farmed land is a very tiny % of the areas where quail decline is seen.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5010277 03/07/14 09:09 PM
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Some things to consider are that we started out as a people moving westward into the frontier wilderness. I think a lot of legislation is geared toward re-establishing the wilderness but when you think about it, if this "re-established wilderness" comes about through man's efforts then it is a man made thing and not really un-touched wilderness at all. The reason I'm saying this is because right now raptors are an environmentalist's creature of concern. I personally think they are over protected. It should not be an all or nothing solution. Sometimes I go outside my place and there are 5 hawks on the power lines. I may be wrong but raptor populations may be higher than their natural situation would entail. I used to spend weeks in the wilds and seldom saw a hawk or raptor, maybe owls more than anything else. Maybe trim the population in certain areas and see if quail numbers improve.
Not that raptor populations are the entire issue. The old time farms with fringe areas of weeds and covers and drainage ditches, etc. The farmers probably didn't realize it but they may have created a quail paradise and if you were a kid (me) that grew up in that world you just assumed that such a situation was a normal thing and that the quail numbers were normal.
The reason I quit Quail Unlimited was because they seemed locked into private land. Ducks unlimited, trout unlimited, etc. usually do both- they spend at least a significant amount of time on public land improvement in conjunction with wildlife departments.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5010341 03/07/14 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
The pesticide argument doesn't fare well when you realize that farmed land is a very tiny % of the areas where quail decline is seen.

That would be correct for most of Texas that is still considered bird country these days and I probably should not have mentioned chemicals that considered. Guess I am still wondering why they disappeared from the rest of Texas and practically the entire southern USA in far less than half a century.
In any case, those of you who still have some quail, it might serve you well to consider that a chemical which breaks the natural chain of events should be used with extreme caution.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: therancher] #5010525 03/07/14 11:44 PM
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It's a perfect storm. Quail are fragile creatures. There have always been predators. There has always been fragmentation of land. Fire ants, and chemicals probably get their share. Quail can bounce back from short term drought. Long term drought is a different story. Areas that have never seen a plow are being effected.
When it's all said and done, it comes down to water. There has to be enough moisture in the air for chicks to peck their way out of eggs. Climate change, that includes long time drought, is taking it's toll. I think part of the problem is microscopic, also.
Then there is the survival of the fittest thing.

Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: arandy] #5010619 03/08/14 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: arandy
Originally Posted By: therancher
The pesticide argument doesn't fare well when you realize that farmed land is a very tiny % of the areas where quail decline is seen.

That would be correct for most of Texas that is still considered bird country these days and I probably should not have mentioned chemicals that considered. Guess I am still wondering why they disappeared from the rest of Texas and practically the entire southern USA in far less than half a century.
In any case, those of you who still have some quail, it might serve you well to consider that a chemical which breaks the natural chain of events should be used with extreme caution.
Agreed.


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Re: I have a theory on quail decline. [Re: coolie] #5010636 03/08/14 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: coolie76
It's a perfect storm. Quail are fragile creatures. There have always been predators. There has always been fragmentation of land. Fire ants, and chemicals probably get their share. Quail can bounce back from short term drought. Long term drought is a different story. Areas that have never seen a plow are being effected.
When it's all said and done, it comes down to water. There has to be enough moisture in the air for chicks to peck their way out of eggs. Climate change, that includes long time drought, is taking it's toll. I think part of the problem is microscopic, also.
Then there is the survival of the fittest thing.


There have always been predators yes. But when man hadn't killed the top tier land predators off (wolves, mountain lions) there were a lot fewer raccoons, skunks, foxes etc.

And that leads back to raptors too. We used to keep them in check. But now their numbers are through the roof and they follow my polarises and nail quail on the rise. They live by my deer feeders.

I'll go so far as to bet that we actually had an un-naturally high number of quail when all our competing predators were kept in check. I personally like it that way.

Last edited by therancher; 03/08/14 12:58 AM.

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