+1 Bingo - I did not read her post as attacking anyone. Just a "heads up".

Can not emphasize this enough, one step in the wrong direction can mean an whole industry that is turned into a government agency...

Case in point: medicine. It wasn't long ago, just 44 years ago, that government got involved in the insurance industry via medicare. One step then and now the whole kit and kaboodle is being regulated and dictated what can and can not take place. I am in the field, I am seeing the writing on the wall, have for years prior to the whole Affordable care act being passed. They want control over it all, and with that law they have it, and more. Access to our bank accounts, govt control over student loans, etc, etc...

One simple law, with exceptions to sporting dogs now, will turn into more and more control with sporting dogs not excluded in the future. Before we know it, Gun dogs will be as controlled as firearms....

Long story short, the paranoia is real because we are seeing it take place in other arenas of our day to day life all the time!!

Oh and BTW, I am not scared of any health inspections that come along, but just in the past two months I have had two inspections by the state, both were idiots that had no clue what was really law and what they thought was law, both took extra time out of my day and stress on my staff because of the idiocy of these fools, and they both found "irregularities" that were not legitimate irregularities. I had to call their supervisors and explain to them what was up and send in paperwork explaining why my "notice of deficiency" was not a real notcie but just a misunderstanding...

That is why we don't like inspections. Not because we do wrong things, but because the people that do inspections can't hold a job anywhere else and are government idiots!

Thats the problem, you don't get to decide what these inspections get to do or don't get to do (unless it is true you are a govt crony )

Really though, most inspectors are not very bright and/or educated on what the actual law/regs say (partly because law/regs change so frequently), and many times create undue stress in the process.

It isn't the inspection that scares anyone, unless they are hiding stuff, and those people are easy to spot, but for some reason inspections don't typically get done at their places (bejamins for you and you stay away??), it is the silly stuff the inspection causes that drives everyone crazy.

and to your other question regaridng immunizations, I am about as "leave me alone-stick it to the system" as you can get, and I still got all my kids vaccinated and my dogs too. I don't think there is a correlation between health of family members and displeasure with government or corporate america.

Still love the country though!! Best place in the world to live!!

Justin, you just showed your ignorance about dog training by posting this. Anyone that truly knows about raising and training dogs understands that there are various levels and types of training. You've made it apparent that you think the only CREDIBLE use and training for a dog is hunt testing and field trialing and you scoff at training dogs for hunting. As I reminded you before, this is a HUNTING forum, so most folks are looking for HUNTING DOGS. That is one type and level of training. It also happens to be the level and type I am involved with. I do this for my own personal interests and for those of my clients. That's called a "market niche" and a wise business person finds and sticks with their market niche, seeking to excel in that area. Only when that market niche has been maximized, does a prudent business person seek to expand into other areas. Trying to be all things to all people is not a wise business strategy.

A WISE and PRUDENT person (business or otherwise) sets their limitations based on a number of things:

1) Money
2) Time
3) Energy
4) Resources (beyond money - equipment, facilities, networks, etc.)
5) Expertise (skills, experience)

These are weighed against your GOALS. If you have all of these things, you are ready to pursue your goals on your own. However, if you are LACKING in any of them, you either abandon the goal, revisit it when you have what you need to pursue it, or you BUY IT. I don't intend to change my training style, method, approach or focus. What I do works for me and for my clientele and as I've said repeatedly, MY CLIENTELE COMES FIRST.

However, I have a unique goal which I want to pursue, a new, added interest. I'm not fool hearty enough to just go running out there and wing it. I have assessed my position and come to the conclusion that for this new pursuit, I lack numbers 2, 3, 4 & 5. Fortunately, I believe I have enough of #1 to make up for my lack in the other areas. And by deploying that particular resource to attain the others, I also hope to attain an education to better position myself for the future, should I find this new curiousity holds my interests. I am purchasing a very nice dog that has the potential to become a GMHRCH. This purchase is called an INVESTMENT in my business. It is a unique business decision I decided I would like to try, just for something new to do. I've been doing the same thing for many years, I like to think I have maximized my market niche and I thought I'd expand my horizons. Retirement approaches and I anticipate slowing down too much for the rigors of duck hunting at the same level, so I am exploring new pursuits. I like to think and look ahead.

To get started, I would do what any person getting started in a new area would do - hire an expert to do the job for me and learn from him/her. In this way, I can grow, maximize my new investment (the dog) and gradually explore this new pursuit at a comfortable pace. Suffice it to say, I am shopping pro's and that is nothing to be ashamed of. On the contrary, it speaks to my wisdom. I never proported to be a hunt test of field trial pro, have no desire to be one and don't plan on changing my business tactics, strategy or clientele anytime in the near future. You do realize that when a plumber has an electrical problem, he hires an electrician, right?

So, you get on here and out of the starting gate boast great claims, posting training grounds & dogs which you seemingly presented as your own. So, being a reasonable and logical person, I sent you a PM and asked you a series of questions, did I not? I posted a list requesting information as to who you knew, if you were a pro trainer (or a hobbyist who spends an inordinate amount of money on his pursuits), etc. And I explained about the new pup. Your response told me all I needed to know about you. As a result, I promptly removed myself from that particular conversation and put you in the file.

Now, lots of people on here know that my PM box fills up - that's because it's 27 pages long and I only ever remove myself from topics when I have to make room for new PM's. I like to have them for reference. It's quite unusual for me to remove myself from a topic. However, I didn't see anything of value in our exchange, so there was no need to take up space in my PM box with our conversation.

Both from our private exchange and from this post, it becomes increasingly apparent that you lack enough understanding of the sporting dog industry to realize that there are PRO, AMATEUR and HOBBYIST levels. Hobbyists can be involved in field testing, or perhaps they just train dogs to hunt (like me, like my clients.) To us, that is achieving success because we don't measure our value by how we compare with someone else, we measure our value by the PERSONAL SATISFACTION WE ATTAIN. There is no shame in exploring a new area to see if personal satisfaction can be found there and to seeking out an appropriate consultant and/or mentor to aid in the process. On the contrary, there is wisdom in it.

Great post. I couldn't agree with you more.

its GRHRCH and you are considered a pro not a hobbyist. if you take any money for training you are considered a pro. yes our pms stopped when i told you that is was obsured to wait and put a dog with a hunt test or field trial pro until it was 2yrs old so it wont get hurt and obsured when you basically said a hunt test or field trial dog cant hunt. there are lots of people on this board that run upper level hunt test thatstill hunt there dogs all duck season.

Before the USDA, heck before "The Jungle", things were pretty bad in the meat industry. Not just the quality of the product, but the situation of the emplyees too. Afterward things are better. Is the industry perfect and running at peak efficiency? No, but the public now trust the industry a little more than they did. When the people do not have trust in a industry, it fails. Those 20/20 moments from puppy mills that come up every so often put folks on alert. Were they more for ratings and less to inform? Probably, but they still do more to educate folks than ignoring a problem.

A governing body is normally asked for by the people it would govern or the consumers or both. Most of the times for good reason. No body said government (big or small) is perfect, but it is needed. I don't agree with a governing body telling anyone how to conduct their business, but the consumer needs to be protected and so do the resources (in this case dogs). If the industry is clean, the governing agency will shrink or go away. If for no other reasons, for the fact that the people are eyeing govt closer than ever and will vote out anyone who spends any more than what they think is vital. I think all respectable breeders should work with govt (State or kennel clubs) rather than fight them. Tell themyour concerns, what to look for and how you can help each other. It's worked before. Ask a farmer.

GMHRCH Grand Master Hunting Retriever with 1000 points
GMHR Grand Master Hunting Retriever
MHR Master Hunting Retriever

GRHRCH Grand Hunting Retriever Champion

The irony here Jagg is that it was a FARMER who told me about the very things that prompted me to put up this post, to begin with. I agree with DoubleB20's viewpoint. Government is all about self perpetuation. Consumer protection and resource protection fall by the wayside once the big wheels get turning. And these entities don't get voted in by the population at large. The puppy mill bill was only wanted and of interest in Houston, Austin and San Antonio. I told Senfronia's team to make them city ordinances then, rather than statewide law. But there isn't enough power and control in city ordinances to sate them. We can't lose sight of the fact that these politicians get their money from organizations with agendas and the politico's will push those agendas to continue the funding stream. I'd like to think things ran as cleanly and ethically as you explained, but the sad truth is, it just isn't.

I have also noticed a lot of "newbies" who post on here looking for a particular type of gun only to never be heard from again.

I'll bet it's the gov't trying to take away our guns.

"Christmas Puppies" always throw up a red flag for me. It doesn't necessarily mean the breeder is bad but it definitely makes me more cautious. Too many people buy pups around Christmas as an impulse and too many breeders know this and try to make a quick buck off of it.

A good breeder doesn't need a Christmas gimmick to sell dogs. Quality dogs sell themselves.

Does it really f***ing matter what other people do. Nothing you can do to change them, so you opened a thread to complain about it. People that dont know better will do what they want, as people that do know better will do what they think they should.

What are you the internet police?

People have their reasons, some may not be legit but im guessing from the responses in here that most are legit and people just dont want to be forum jockeys once they have recieved the desired information.

Get over it. ITS THE INTERNET!

kindall, yes i know there is a gmhrch, its a nahra title. tell me where nahra is today and where a retriever test is held locally and who even runs it anymore. she meant grhrch just like i said.

pretty sure she meant her dog has potential to get his grhrch considering thats what his dad is and nahra is basically non existant.but thanks

M1 you will think get over it once somebody has gotten to you or a close family member whether it is through the internet or other ways. After you get taken advantage of you would probably start warning people in what ever way possible either internet or other ways. As an individual you can take it for what its worth but most people want be concerned about it up front but it will stay stuck in the back of mind in some shape or form. Then one day something will happen and make them take notice and it may something and it may not be but they will take a second look just to make sure and if it is something they will be thankful that somebody took the time and effort to put that information out there to protect them.

I agree with you on that, but this type of issues (IMO) are your own fault. I have not been taken advantage of(knock on wood), but I have made mistakes in which case it was my own damn fault.
Its not a conspiracy, its easy to figure out if something is wrong real quick and if someone is trying to take advantage of you and if you as a person cannot realize it, you prob deserve it and can hopefully learn from it.

It may seem like I dont care but I dont have pitty for stupidity or ignorance and honestly people that fall for [censored] like this or get taken advantage of, usually fall into one category or another.

Now there are those that are not knowledgable enought to make a good decision and for the most part they are able to admit that to themselves at which pint they seek professional help aside from web surfing.

OT: I checked your site and you have some beautiful animals there. I love labs and miss mine. She passed at 14 years old about a year ago, she was my side kick growing up.

M1 thanks for the compliment.

The good thing about the country that we live in is we can agree openly and disagree openly.

I respect your opinion but I do disagree. I feel like if there is an opportunity to notify somebody of some wrong doing that is going on then it should be done. Sure that notice may go out to some folks that don't need but at the same time it may reach the people that you talked about that doesn't have the knoweldge or the education. The notice that is being given is the education that they seek or not knowingly they need. Its educators or experienced people that show the nonexperienced the way its that simple. Sometimes we do learn mistakes from our own faults and like you said I hope we learn from them if not so be it. But should we let somebody suffer because they may be uneducated on certain situation that my pop up no we shouldn't. That helpfullness is what makes America great we are always going out of our way to help each other lets keep that going.

Well DH I cannot say I disagree with anything in your post, I actually agree with all of it, but I still reserve my opinion partially that everyone is responsible for their choices wether good or bad. I def dont think that people should suffer though and that is not what I meant, but I think we understand each other.

M1, I agree with your viewpoint and understand what you said and why you said it. I also agree with DH. You might better understand the nature and purpose of my post if you understand what prompted it. You see, the issue was a little more complex than what you addressed. I declined to post the history behind it for brevity's sake, but here it is (and it won't be brief!):

For about a decade, I've been breeding and raising not just dogs, but other livestock, including foundation bred quarter horses. My horse stock was from some specific bloodlines with certain horses available only in Florida, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming (plus a few other sporadic ranches in the midwest.) So I made one or two annual trips moving horses between these points and Texas. Along the way, I have come to know a lot of people - mostly farmers and ranchers.

In recent years, a lot of prohibitive legislation is slamming the farming, ranching and horse breeding industries (in some cases pretty much obliterating it.) Dog breeding is being affected in the same way. Like me, a lot of these folks who raise horses and livetock also raise dogs - usually working dogs (sporting, herding, guarding breeds, etc.) So we have a lot in common and we continue to share information and look out for each other's best interests. Were this not the case here in Texas, working dogs would not have been granted an exclusion from the recent "puppy mill" law.

A couple of months ago, a horse breeder noticed an inordinate jump in hits to her website. She is known more for her horses than her dogs. In fact, she sells a breed with a very limited market, so she doesn't even advertise her dogs. They sell mostly by word-of-mouth between folks who have need for them. However, when she checked her traffic reports, she noticed the hits were coming from a discussion forum in whch she did not participate. She was even more surprised to find out that they were looking at her dogs. This made her curious, so she checked out the forum, found the discussion and noted that the breed had come up as a topic. She presumed that as a result, people must have been doing internet searches - most likely out of sheer curiousity. Since not many people deal in that particular breed, it shouldn't surprise any of us that her dogs readily came up in a web search. All rather benign, right?

So, thinking maybe she'd found a new market, she began to check specifics - page usage, visitors and IP's. This is where it gets strange - she found an unnerving number of hits from watch dog type organizations, animal activist groups and even some agencies that deal with homeland security. One could argue maybe homeland security was interested in her dogs, right? But then the weird 'info gathering' calls began. Not like most shopper calls, they were clearly probing and wanting operational and philosophical information about her kennels.

So, come to find out that similar things had happened to other folks who are involved in such harmless businesses as cattle, horses and even hay! Apparently the EPA has determined that hay is "toxic" and needs to be monitored/regulated? At least, that's what I was told by someone, but I can't say I did any research to substantiate that.

Well, I forgot about all of that with everything I have going on in my own life. That is, until we had some similar posting activities here and I just happened to talk to that horse breeder friend again (about a horse, not dogs.) Then I was reminded of that eerie situation. Bear in mind that she found those IP's by accident and this prompted other folks to look and some found similar activity. Did all those people lie to me? Are they just paranoid? Hardly, we all have better things to do with our time, but no one appreciates being 'spied upon' or even the feeling that one may be getting spied upon.

This all caused me to think about all the wonderful people I have met here on THF, their kennels, how hard they try to do the right thing and mostly, how upfront, transparent, trusting and honest they are. They make for easy targets for underhanded activities. It's not paranoid or illogical to assume these site hits could be information gathering or list building activity. Especially in light of recent legislation having to do with 'puppy mills' and the internet. Better safe than sorry, I feel.

Now (please don't take offense, Justin) enter Justin Taylor with his puppy mill post. That was the point at which I felt I needed to speak up and warn other breeders. My logic was that if I did not post, they would likely not be watching traffic - specifically IP addresses and could be an unsuspecting target. However, if I did post and all the activity was harmless indeed, there might be some scuttlebutt and I'd take a lot of flack (I also had a pretty good idea about from whom), but figured that ultimately, it would blow over and be forgotten. That was some heat I was willing to take for the sake of what could be gained.

Well, as it turns out, it appears it is a little of both. I have heard from folks who found questionable IP addresses crusing their sites, after all. Can I say it's directly related to these posts? No - but at least they looked and that was my goal. And, of course, I certainly did cause some scuttlebutt! So be it, I'm a big girl and this isn't the first time, nor the last, that I find myself in the midst of controversy. The GOOD news is, I find myself here for what I believe firmly in my heart to be, a goodly and righteous cause. If others disagree with that cause, so be it. Those whom I was thinking of when I posted did understand what I was doing for them and why. I've heard from just about all of them (as well as other folks) with thanks and kudos. I've been encouraged here, via email, pm and telephone calls. So all ridicule, accusations and complaints notwithstanding, I don't regret having posted and won't be made to feel bad about my choice.

I hope now you can better understand why I chose to post - even if my wordsmithing left something to be desired. I usually try to make my point without offending others, but being human, I sometimes make mistakes - and then sometimes.... addressing something potentially controvesial without offending someone - simply is not possible.

Now harm done. Thanks for the explanation.

"I want a new dog,
one that won't make me sick,
one that'll fetch birds from afar,
that ain't dumb as a brick,

I want a new dog...

lol... That's great.