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 what color lab is the best...
#1068872
11/29/09 11:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,646
garrett
OP
THF Celebrity
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OP
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,646 |
I didnt want to hi-jack someones thread, so lets move the debate here...
some people believe that chocolate labs are inferior to blacks and color plays a role in how well the dog works.
I call BS, that would be like me saying I have brown hair and my sister has blonde, therefore I am smarter than she is just because of my hair color. Never mind that we come from the gene pool.
I also call BS on the "proof" that they use...saying that the majority of great FT dogs are black for a reason, they are better...the reason there are more black FT dogs is just a numbers game
Attention rickym, this is not a troll post, just a good hearted fun type of post
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: garrett]
#1068980
11/30/09 12:37 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663
junfan68
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Tracker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663 |
Chocolate dogs are a subset of black dogs. Here is the key issue....many times breedings for chocolate dogs was driven by color, at the expense of other desirable field qualities. Meanwhile, the competition dogs' breedings were driven by abilities in the field. Hence the stronger line (ie black) kept getting stronger and stronger, while this smaller subset over there got stagnant and over inbred.
Now you are seeing more quality brown dogs given the improvements in the breedings, but if you think the chocolate factored gene pool is as good or as deep you are crazy.
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: junfan68]
#1069014
11/30/09 12:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,646
garrett
OP
THF Celebrity
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OP
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,646 |
maybe we are talking about 2 different situations...would you agree that if a person picked a good litter of pups that had all 3 colors that you should have a good chance at getting a good pup no matter what color you pick?
or...are you saying that even in this situation chocolate is still inferior?
Attention rickym, this is not a troll post, just a good hearted fun type of post
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: junfan68]
#1069016
11/30/09 12:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,658
nogeese
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,658 |
yellows are the smartest by far! I no sooner had this little girl home then she knew how to carp and Pee on my carpet, I also was able to teach her how to chew the first day!  seriously there is no way color plays a role in how smart a dog is.
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: nogeese]
#1069159
11/30/09 01:51 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 581
Redboneman
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 581 |
I've seen mutt dogs that smoke purebred. Color has nothing to do with it. (by mutt I mean lab/???)
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Redboneman]
#1069223
11/30/09 02:07 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,780
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,780 |
has nothing to do with color has to do with parents and trainer
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#1069455
11/30/09 03:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038
IronSpikeLabs
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038 |
We breed then train pups, so we know their parents' genetics, the training that goes into them and how they go on to perform. Same parents, same environment, same training, same gene pool. In this tiny 'controlled population' I see nothing that implies color has anything to do with performance.
CURRENT LITTER:
2 black males; 1 black female
2 choco males; 1 choco female
2 yellow males; 1 yellow female
1 'cream' (yellow) male; 1'cream' (yellow) female
Pups' current performance:
1 black male driven, 1 black male 'pet', 1 female fair
1 choco male driven, 1 choco male fair, 1 choco female driven
2 yellow males driven; 1 yellow female hard wired
1 cream male driven; 1 cream female driven
Sire is chocolate, dam is black. Their litter last year produced no chocolate, and twice as many yellow as black. All the black were driven, the yellow were driven with two hard-wired. No 'pets' last year. Based on this, the yellow are at 100%, black at 83% and chocolate at 66% in performance.
2nd LITTER: Yellow sire & chocolate dam, pups all black:
1 hard wired
5 driven
2 pets
75% in performance. This tells me that performance ultimately boils down to the individual pup. Unless you want to go out on a limb and suggest that yellow is the best performer...
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: IronSpikeLabs]
#1069483
11/30/09 03:19 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663
junfan68
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663 |
I don't think anyone is talking about 2 different colors out of the same litter.
REPEAT: The gene pool of chocolate factored dogs is neither as good or as deep as that of the blacks. Period.
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: IronSpikeLabs]
#1069493
11/30/09 03:22 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429
Angie B
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429 |
We breed then train pups, so we know their parents' genetics, the training that goes into them and how they go on to perform. Same parents, same environment, same training, same gene pool. In this tiny 'controlled population' I see nothing that implies color has anything to do with performance.
CURRENT LITTER:
2 black males; 1 black female
2 choco males; 1 choco female
2 yellow males; 1 yellow female
1 'cream' (yellow) male; 1'cream' (yellow) female
Pups' current performance:
1 black male driven, 1 black male 'pet', 1 female fair
1 choco male driven, 1 choco male fair, 1 choco female driven
2 yellow males driven; 1 yellow female hard wired
1 cream male driven; 1 cream female driven
Sire is chocolate, dam is black. Their litter last year produced no chocolate, and twice as many yellow as black. All the black were driven, the yellow were driven with two hard-wired. No 'pets' last year. Based on this, the yellow are at 100%, black at 83% and chocolate at 66% in performance.
2nd LITTER: Yellow sire & chocolate dam, pups all black:
1 hard wired
5 driven
2 pets
75% in performance. This tells me that performance ultimately boils down to the individual pup. Unless you want to go out on a limb and suggest that yellow is the best performer... Show us some health clearances on your stock and a pedigree and maybe we'll take you seriously??? Oh and by the way.... puppies retrieving to hand at 4-6 months out of water is no big deal..... Angie
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: garrett]
#1069496
11/30/09 03:22 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038
IronSpikeLabs
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038 |
...would you agree that if a person picked a good litter of pups that had all 3 colors that you should have a good chance at getting a good pup no matter what color you pick?
or...are you saying that even in this situation chocolate is still inferior? To this question, my response stands. Question regarding same litter.
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Angie B]
#1069511
11/30/09 03:25 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429
Angie B
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429 |
some people believe that chocolate labs are inferior to blacks and color plays a role in how well the dog works.
Not if you know your pedigree's.... Some amazing chocolate pedigree's out there from breeders that know what they are doing. I'd buy one in a heart beat. And have....
Angie
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: junfan68]
#1069537
11/30/09 03:28 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429
Angie B
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429 |
I don't think anyone is talking about 2 different colors out of the same litter.
REPEAT: The gene pool of chocolate factored dogs is neither as good or as deep as that of the blacks. Period. You'd be surprised.... What color is the top derby dog this year and what looks like of all time??? Ammo,ammo,ammo,ammo..... Angie
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Angie B]
#1069600
11/30/09 03:43 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038
IronSpikeLabs
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038 |
We breed then train pups, so we know their parents' genetics, the training that goes into them and how they go on to perform. Same parents, same environment, same training, same gene pool. In this tiny 'controlled population' I see nothing that implies color has anything to do with performance.
CURRENT LITTER:
2 black males; 1 black female
2 choco males; 1 choco female
2 yellow males; 1 yellow female
1 'cream' (yellow) male; 1'cream' (yellow) female
Pups' current performance:
1 black male driven, 1 black male 'pet', 1 female fair
1 choco male driven, 1 choco male fair, 1 choco female driven
2 yellow males driven; 1 yellow female hard wired
1 cream male driven; 1 cream female driven
Sire is chocolate, dam is black. Their litter last year produced no chocolate, and twice as many yellow as black. All the black were driven, the yellow were driven with two hard-wired. No 'pets' last year. Based on this, the yellow are at 100%, black at 83% and chocolate at 66% in performance.
2nd LITTER: Yellow sire & chocolate dam, pups all black:
1 hard wired
5 driven
2 pets
75% in performance. This tells me that performance ultimately boils down to the individual pup. Unless you want to go out on a limb and suggest that yellow is the best performer... Show us some health clearances on your stock and a pedigree and maybe we'll take you seriously??? Oh and by the way.... puppies retrieving to hand at 4-6 months out of water is no big deal..... Angie I've seen your response and comments toward other breeders and they were not too different from the tone of your comment above. The hostility is hard to fathom, but since I am not here to compete with anyone or defend myself against unwarranted attacks, I will decline to comment on my operation as it needs no justfication. I am not here to attack or discredit other breeders or lovers of Labs - that would be in poor taste, let alone unprofessional. However, I love the dogs and we have a lot of fun with them while blessing others with great hunting companions and making friends along the way. Now, I've made my contribution to this thread in good faith (and good taste) and propose that others would do well to do the same. Nothing is gained by attempts to create animosity, especially at a site where all (most) are united by a mutual passion and appreciation for sport and sport dogs. May the remainder of your evening be of more pleasant, positive, peaceful thoughts. Regards, Dawn
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Angie B]
#1069607
11/30/09 03:44 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663
junfan68
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663 |
You'd be surprised....
What color is the top derby dog this year and what looks like of all time???
Ammo,ammo,ammo,ammo.....
Angie
No doubt Ammo was a great dog....but nothing like a little head to head competition to settle all this talk right? Unfortunately, Ammo was beaten 6 out of the 7 times she faced Robbers Stray Bullet (85+ derby points). Oh wait, he was black. And oh by the way, not every one could travel every single weekend and run two derbies per weekend. Check the pts per derby, and Bullet blew her away. I know which dog I would want as an all-age dog. Do you?
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: IronSpikeLabs]
#1069628
11/30/09 03:49 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429
Angie B
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429 |
We breed then train pups, so we know their parents' genetics, the training that goes into them and how they go on to perform. Same parents, same environment, same training, same gene pool. In this tiny 'controlled population' I see nothing that implies color has anything to do with performance.
CURRENT LITTER:
2 black males; 1 black female
2 choco males; 1 choco female
2 yellow males; 1 yellow female
1 'cream' (yellow) male; 1'cream' (yellow) female
Pups' current performance:
1 black male driven, 1 black male 'pet', 1 female fair
1 choco male driven, 1 choco male fair, 1 choco female driven
2 yellow males driven; 1 yellow female hard wired
1 cream male driven; 1 cream female driven
Sire is chocolate, dam is black. Their litter last year produced no chocolate, and twice as many yellow as black. All the black were driven, the yellow were driven with two hard-wired. No 'pets' last year. Based on this, the yellow are at 100%, black at 83% and chocolate at 66% in performance.
2nd LITTER: Yellow sire & chocolate dam, pups all black:
1 hard wired
5 driven
2 pets
75% in performance. This tells me that performance ultimately boils down to the individual pup. Unless you want to go out on a limb and suggest that yellow is the best performer... Show us some health clearances on your stock and a pedigree and maybe we'll take you seriously??? Oh and by the way.... puppies retrieving to hand at 4-6 months out of water is no big deal..... Angie I've seen your response and comments toward other breeders and they were not too different from the tone of your comment above. The hostility is hard to fathom, but since I am not here to compete with anyone or defend myself against unwarranted attacks, I will decline to comment on my operation as it needs no justfication. I am not here to attack or discredit other breeders or lovers of Labs - that would be in poor taste, let alone unprofessional. However, I love the dogs and we have a lot of fun with them while blessing others with great hunting companions and making friends along the way. Now, I've made my contribution to this thread in good faith (and good taste) and propose that others would do well to do the same. Nothing is gained by attempts to create animosity, especially at a site where all (most) are united by a mutual passion and appreciation for sport and sport dogs. May the remainder of your evening be of more pleasant, positive, peaceful thoughts. Regards, Dawn Dawn,,, get a clue! No one is attacking you,,, just show everyone your health clearances on your litters and you're "good to go"... Otherwise list them in the newspaper.... *sheesh* Angie
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: junfan68]
#1069655
11/30/09 03:54 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429
Angie B
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429 |
You'd be surprised....
What color is the top derby dog this year and what looks like of all time???
Ammo,ammo,ammo,ammo.....
Angie
No doubt Ammo was a great dog....but nothing like a little head to head competition to settle all this talk right? Unfortunately, Ammo was beaten 6 out of the 7 times she faced Robbers Stray Bullet (85+ derby points). Oh wait, he was black. And oh by the way, not every one could travel every single weekend and run two derbies per weekend. Check the pts per derby, and Bullet blew her away. I know which dog I would want as an all-age dog. Do you? I never bet on a derby dog,,,, Never have and never will. But the mainstream retriever community lap up derby dogs like no tomorrow... A chocolate female with that amount of points is better then a 2xNFC.... You mark my words....;) Angie
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Angie B]
#1069669
11/30/09 03:58 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038
IronSpikeLabs
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,038 |
We breed then train pups, so we know their parents' genetics, the training that goes into them and how they go on to perform. Same parents, same environment, same training, same gene pool. In this tiny 'controlled population' I see nothing that implies color has anything to do with performance.
CURRENT LITTER:
2 black males; 1 black female
2 choco males; 1 choco female
2 yellow males; 1 yellow female
1 'cream' (yellow) male; 1'cream' (yellow) female
Pups' current performance:
1 black male driven, 1 black male 'pet', 1 female fair
1 choco male driven, 1 choco male fair, 1 choco female driven
2 yellow males driven; 1 yellow female hard wired
1 cream male driven; 1 cream female driven
Sire is chocolate, dam is black. Their litter last year produced no chocolate, and twice as many yellow as black. All the black were driven, the yellow were driven with two hard-wired. No 'pets' last year. Based on this, the yellow are at 100%, black at 83% and chocolate at 66% in performance.
2nd LITTER: Yellow sire & chocolate dam, pups all black:
1 hard wired
5 driven
2 pets
75% in performance. This tells me that performance ultimately boils down to the individual pup. Unless you want to go out on a limb and suggest that yellow is the best performer... Show us some health clearances on your stock and a pedigree and maybe we'll take you seriously??? Oh and by the way.... puppies retrieving to hand at 4-6 months out of water is no big deal..... Angie I've seen your response and comments toward other breeders and they were not too different from the tone of your comment above. The hostility is hard to fathom, but since I am not here to compete with anyone or defend myself against unwarranted attacks, I will decline to comment on my operation as it needs no justfication. I am not here to attack or discredit other breeders or lovers of Labs - that would be in poor taste, let alone unprofessional. However, I love the dogs and we have a lot of fun with them while blessing others with great hunting companions and making friends along the way. Now, I've made my contribution to this thread in good faith (and good taste) and propose that others would do well to do the same. Nothing is gained by attempts to create animosity, especially at a site where all (most) are united by a mutual passion and appreciation for sport and sport dogs. May the remainder of your evening be of more pleasant, positive, peaceful thoughts. Regards, Dawn Dawn,,, get a clue! No one is attacking you,,, just show everyone your health clearances on your litters and you're "good to go"... Otherwise list them in the newspaper.... *sheesh* Angie *SIGH* God bless....
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Angie B]
#1069676
11/30/09 04:00 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663
junfan68
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 663 |
A chocolate derby dog with 140+ points is better than a 2XNFC?
Are you crazy?
What color is the sky in your world?
Why don't you go run Red River in two weeks and show us what you got?
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: IronSpikeLabs]
#1069684
11/30/09 04:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429
Angie B
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429 |
We breed then train pups, so we know their parents' genetics, the training that goes into them and how they go on to perform. Same parents, same environment, same training, same gene pool. In this tiny 'controlled population' I see nothing that implies color has anything to do with performance.
CURRENT LITTER:
2 black males; 1 black female
2 choco males; 1 choco female
2 yellow males; 1 yellow female
1 'cream' (yellow) male; 1'cream' (yellow) female
Pups' current performance:
1 black male driven, 1 black male 'pet', 1 female fair
1 choco male driven, 1 choco male fair, 1 choco female driven
2 yellow males driven; 1 yellow female hard wired
1 cream male driven; 1 cream female driven
Sire is chocolate, dam is black. Their litter last year produced no chocolate, and twice as many yellow as black. All the black were driven, the yellow were driven with two hard-wired. No 'pets' last year. Based on this, the yellow are at 100%, black at 83% and chocolate at 66% in performance.
2nd LITTER: Yellow sire & chocolate dam, pups all black:
1 hard wired
5 driven
2 pets
75% in performance. This tells me that performance ultimately boils down to the individual pup. Unless you want to go out on a limb and suggest that yellow is the best performer... Show us some health clearances on your stock and a pedigree and maybe we'll take you seriously??? Oh and by the way.... puppies retrieving to hand at 4-6 months out of water is no big deal..... Angie I've seen your response and comments toward other breeders and they were not too different from the tone of your comment above. The hostility is hard to fathom, but since I am not here to compete with anyone or defend myself against unwarranted attacks, I will decline to comment on my operation as it needs no justfication. I am not here to attack or discredit other breeders or lovers of Labs - that would be in poor taste, let alone unprofessional. However, I love the dogs and we have a lot of fun with them while blessing others with great hunting companions and making friends along the way. Now, I've made my contribution to this thread in good faith (and good taste) and propose that others would do well to do the same. Nothing is gained by attempts to create animosity, especially at a site where all (most) are united by a mutual passion and appreciation for sport and sport dogs. May the remainder of your evening be of more pleasant, positive, peaceful thoughts. Regards, Dawn Dawn,,, One more thing... It's not about you and your kennel. It's about what is ethical to the breed and your clients.... The Labrador Retriever Club has a wonderful Code of ethics for breeders... It would be good reading.... Angie
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Angie B]
#1069701
11/30/09 04:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 361
dfwfirefighter
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 361 |
iron spike I have no side on this battle and was actually looking to get a pup. I didnt find any health clearances on your website nor on the OFA site with your dogs names. pm me if you would like
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: junfan68]
#1069713
11/30/09 04:09 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429
Angie B
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,429 |
A chocolate derby dog with 140+ points is better than a 2XNFC?
Are you crazy?
What color is the sky in your world?
Why don't you go run Red River in two weeks and show us what you got? You are just a babe in this sport.... You have no idea.... I don't have to be at Red River,,, but maybe you need to be. Running the Amateur are you??? Angie
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: Angie B]
#1069714
11/30/09 04:09 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 55
JTDavis, Jr
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 55 |
We breed then train pups, so we know their parents' genetics, the training that goes into them and how they go on to perform. Same parents, same environment, same training, same gene pool. In this tiny 'controlled population' I see nothing that implies color has anything to do with performance.
CURRENT LITTER:
2 black males; 1 black female
2 choco males; 1 choco female
2 yellow males; 1 yellow female
1 'cream' (yellow) male; 1'cream' (yellow) female
Pups' current performance:
1 black male driven, 1 black male 'pet', 1 female fair
1 choco male driven, 1 choco male fair, 1 choco female driven
2 yellow males driven; 1 yellow female hard wired
1 cream male driven; 1 cream female driven
Sire is chocolate, dam is black. Their litter last year produced no chocolate, and twice as many yellow as black. All the black were driven, the yellow were driven with two hard-wired. No 'pets' last year. Based on this, the yellow are at 100%, black at 83% and chocolate at 66% in performance.
2nd LITTER: Yellow sire & chocolate dam, pups all black:
1 hard wired
5 driven
2 pets
75% in performance. This tells me that performance ultimately boils down to the individual pup. Unless you want to go out on a limb and suggest that yellow is the best performer... Show us some health clearances on your stock and a pedigree and maybe we'll take you seriously??? Oh and by the way.... puppies retrieving to hand at 4-6 months out of water is no big deal..... Angie I've seen your response and comments toward other breeders and they were not too different from the tone of your comment above. The hostility is hard to fathom, but since I am not here to compete with anyone or defend myself against unwarranted attacks, I will decline to comment on my operation as it needs no justfication. I am not here to attack or discredit other breeders or lovers of Labs - that would be in poor taste, let alone unprofessional. However, I love the dogs and we have a lot of fun with them while blessing others with great hunting companions and making friends along the way. Now, I've made my contribution to this thread in good faith (and good taste) and propose that others would do well to do the same. Nothing is gained by attempts to create animosity, especially at a site where all (most) are united by a mutual passion and appreciation for sport and sport dogs. May the remainder of your evening be of more pleasant, positive, peaceful thoughts. Regards, Dawn Dawn,,, get a clue! No one is attacking you,,, just show everyone your health clearances on your litters and you're "good to go"... Otherwise list them in the newspaper.... *sheesh* Angie Angie, Yes, you are attacking Dawn and I believe it would be out of jealousy. She has two, count them T-W-O, litters of pups retrieving to hand. You have none, count those dogs again... wait you CAN'T count them because YOU DON'T HAVE THEM! And after looking through your site I saw but maybe TWO dogs that you actually owned - what are you riding on other folk's pedigrees?  There is no need for all your negative literature; lighten up.  *sheesh* JT Davis Jr.
"'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord, 'Plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you hope and a future.'"
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: junfan68]
#1069725
11/30/09 04:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 55
JTDavis, Jr
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 55 |
"'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord, 'Plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you hope and a future.'"
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Re: what color lab is the best...
[Re: JTDavis, Jr]
#1069735
11/30/09 04:14 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 361
dfwfirefighter
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 361 |
not taking Angie side bcause I dont know her but after looking at her site she is a pro trainer, she cant have many of her own dogs. you can only train so many a day and if they are all your own dogs you wont make money with clients dogs.
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